Gray Jedi

We're all gray. Every one of us. Nobody can ever claim to be completely "light" or completely "dark" because the terms are subjective.

I hear what you're saying but I don't think Jedi means that you are completely light though...

If we were using black and white thinking then yes we would all be gray and there would be no one who was Jedi or Sith. We could make an unlimited amount of justifications and simply go by whatever moniker we choose and do whatever we want with nothing reflecting on the name.

Jedi were meant to be balanced. It's just that in the movies they had become more dogmatic and maybe a little self-righteous. Jedi like Qui Gon were illustrations of moderate Jedi who didn't always agree.

So when people say "I'm gray because I'm in between" that's basically saying Jedi are fundamentally on the extreme end of the spectrum.

What I said previously wasn't based on what someone is, but rather what they want to be. If you want to follow the light it doesn't mean you're already there. It means the light is your destination and where you "want" to go. Not everyone chooses that as a destination though; hence, gray Jedi and Sith.

ZealotX wrote: um... sure.

What's interesting is that Jedi philosophy is faithful to the Jedi in SW canon. But if I talk about Sith philosophy from SW canon and how they use negative emotions to their advantage people get offended.

So I wont.

It might be more accurate to say that Jedi philosophy is based on the actual philosophy that inspired the Jedi characters, just as Sith philosophy is inspired by the actual philosophies that inspired the Sith characters. The Jedi characters were based on a lot of Taoist, Buddhist, and Christian influence along with the moral code of Bushido, while the Sith were based more on certain Jungian archetypes and Machiavellian behavior. Jedi seek to flow with the Force, while Sith seek to control it. George Lucas didn't invent these philosophies or motivations for the Jedi and the Sith. They are based on real world ideas.

Senan wrote:

ZealotX wrote: um... sure.

What's interesting is that Jedi philosophy is faithful to the Jedi in SW canon. But if I talk about Sith philosophy from SW canon and how they use negative emotions to their advantage people get offended.

So I wont.

It might be more accurate to say that Jedi philosophy is based on the actual philosophy that inspired the Jedi characters, just as Sith philosophy is inspired by the actual philosophies that inspired the Sith characters. The Jedi characters were based on a lot of Taoist, Buddhist, and Christian influence along with the moral code of Bushido, while the Sith were based more on certain Jungian archetypes and Machiavellian behavior. Jedi seek to flow with the Force, while Sith seek to control it. George Lucas didn't invent these philosophies or motivations for the Jedi and the Sith. They are based on real world ideas.

Senan wrote: It might be more accurate to say that Jedi philosophy is based on the actual philosophy that inspired the Jedi characters, just as Sith philosophy is inspired by the actual philosophies that inspired the Sith characters. The Jedi characters were based on a lot of Taoist, Buddhist, and Christian influence along with the moral code of Bushido, while the Sith were based more on certain Jungian archetypes and Machiavellian behavior. Jedi seek to flow with the Force, while Sith seek to control it. George Lucas didn't invent these philosophies or motivations for the Jedi and the Sith. They are based on real world ideas.

Lets just pin this on every past, present and forthcoming thread concerning Jedi vs Grey vs Sith...

First off, I'm loving this discussion and it's making me think a lot. I hope I'm not coming off as a know-it-all or argumentative because you make great points. I'm just sharing my opinions and beliefs based on my own experience.

ZealotX wrote:

We're all gray. Every one of us. Nobody can ever claim to be completely "light" or completely "dark" because the terms are subjective.

I hear what you're saying but I don't think Jedi means that you are completely light though...

Me neither. No one can ever be completely light or dark. It's impossible because the terms aren't defined. One can only be more or less light than someone else you are being compared to.

ZealotX wrote: If we were using black and white thinking then yes we would all be gray and there would be no one who was Jedi or Sith. We could make an unlimited amount of justifications and simply go by whatever moniker we choose and do whatever we want with nothing reflecting on the name.

Ironically, this is exactly what Watts talks about when he describes the game of Black & White. We artificially create these dichotomies. They are not real. We can go by whatever moniker we choose because the only purpose monikers serve is so that we can be compared to other things. His contention is that we aren't separate things. We are all the Force. There is no need for labels.

ZealotX wrote: Jedi were meant to be balanced. It's just that in the movies they had become more dogmatic and maybe a little self-righteous. Jedi like Qui Gon were illustrations of moderate Jedi who didn't always agree.

So when people say "I'm gray because I'm in between" that's basically saying Jedi are fundamentally on the extreme end of the spectrum.

This is true, if we accept that the spectrum of Jedi/Sith or Light/Dark even exists. These are vaguely outlined in the Star Wars universe, but in my world, it isn't so cut and dry. Everyone has their own spectrum that they have created in their mind and their own opinion about where they land on it. All you have to do is ask an extreme liberal and an extreme conservative how they view someone like Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump. One will say the guy is a hero and savior while the other will say the guy is a devil and a liar. Meanwhile, Trump and Sanders are just people doing people stuff according to the moral spectrum they have built in their own heads. No two people will ever share the exact same spectrum.

ZealotX wrote: What I said previously wasn't based on what someone is, but rather what they want to be. If you want to follow the light it doesn't mean you're already there. It means the light is your destination and where you "want" to go. Not everyone chooses that as a destination though; hence, gray Jedi and Sith.

This is a good way of looking at it. We choose which end of our moral spectrum we want to move toward. The thing is, the closer you get to one end, the further the finish line moves away from you. You will always end up somewhere in the "gray".

The truth is light, dark, grey, Jed, sith. It's all based on your point of view, and everybody has their own point of view. It's how you see yourself and conduct yourself, in your view what path should you take. All others can do answer questions and offer guidance from there point of view.
Good luck

Me neither. No one can ever be completely light or dark. It's impossible because the terms aren't defined. One can only be more or less light than someone else you are being compared to.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there are different paths. Where you are on the path doesn't define you. But if you're saying "I am a Jedi" then you're making reference to a particular path. That path has "doctrines", expectations, etc., things that those who subscribe to that path should follow. Otherwise, why then seek a label at all? If one is defined by a path their point along that line isn't required to be anything. They are simply in a transitional state in between the beginning of their path and the end. In my opinion, I think we often confuse the person with their path. If I call myself a Jedi that is the path I'm on. It doesn't really speak to how well I represent that path at any single moment in time but a reference to my choice to be on that path whether there is forward motion or not.

If someone is a Christian they simply define their status based on their beliefs. How "Christ-like" they are is another matter. You could say they are "supposed to be following him" and for me that could mean a certain standard of living while for you maybe it means something else. So you might call one person a "Good Christian" who I might not see that way. And that's just based on different values associate with that label and what it means to us.

Grey Jedi to me, depending on how it's used, is like saying "Jedi (as persons not a path) are goody two shoes and that's not me so I'm Grey." The problem with that is that it labels Jedi based on adherence to an ideal of morality that is perfect and they always perfectly adhere to that standard. I think this logic is fundamentally flawed. If a Jedi is HUMAN which includes making mistakes and not always being in control, then by the standards of some, ALL Jedi are grey. So it's kind of like if we want to idolize Jedi as perfect beings then one who is imperfect is forced into this "grey" category when the reality is that Jedi were never perfect beings. And what makes someone a "Good Jedi" is simply how well they move from point to point along their Jedi path.

What makes a good human being? Is it relevant to this discussion? People get hung up on metaphors and labels, all the while attempting to force life in a series of boxes, lol...

Life does not operate that way, not naturally at least...

The words we use, whether it be a shade of this or that, Jedi or Sith, whatever it may be, they're merely words used to convey a sense of focus and direction, the very second you feel the need to defend it, you are allowing your existence to be limited by those same metaphors...

These words can be used to convey a sense of meaning and value within our lives, or bind them to some existential prison that limits your existence as a human being. The choice is yours...

Zenchi wrote:

Warning: Spoiler!

ZealotX wrote:

Me neither. No one can ever be completely light or dark. It's impossible because the terms aren't defined. One can only be more or less light than someone else you are being compared to.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there are different paths. Where you are on the path doesn't define you. But if you're saying "I am a Jedi" then you're making reference to a particular path. That path has "doctrines", expectations, etc., things that those who subscribe to that path should follow. Otherwise, why then seek a label at all? If one is defined by a path their point along that line is required to be anything. They are simply in a transitional state in between the beginning of their path to the end. In my opinion, I think we often confuse the person with their path. If I call myself a Jedi that is the path I'm on. It doesn't really speak to how well I represent that path at any single point but a reference to my choice to be on that path whether there is forward motion or not.

If someone is a Christian they simply define their status based on their beliefs. How "Christ-like" they are is another matter. You could say they are "supposed to be following him" and for me that could mean a certain standard of living while for you maybe it means something else. So you might call one person a "Good Christian" who I might not see that way. And that's just based on different values associate with that label and what it means to us.

Grey Jedi to me, depending on how it's used, is like saying "Jedi (as persons not a path) are goody two shoes and that's not me so I'm Grey." The problem with that is that it labels Jedi based on adherence to an ideal of morality that is perfect and they always perfectly adhere to that standard. I think this logic is fundamentally flawed. If a Jedi is HUMAN which includes making mistakes and not always being in control, then by the standards of some, ALL Jedi are grey. So it's kind of like if we want to idolize Jedi as perfect beings then one who is imperfect is forced into this "grey" category when the reality is that Jedi were never perfect beings. And what makes someone a "Good Jedi" is simply how well they move from point to point along their Jedi path.

What makes a good human being? Is it relevant to this discussion? People get hung up on metaphors and labels, all the while attempting to force life in a series of boxes, lol...

Life does not operate that way, not naturally at least...

The words we use, whether it be a shade of this or that, Jedi or Sith, whatever it may be, they're merely words used to convey a sense of focus and direction, the very second you feel the need to defend it, you are allowing your existence to be limited by those same metaphors...

These words can be used to convey a sense of meaning and value within our lives, or bind them to some existential prison that limits your existence as a human being. The choice is yours...

I hear what you're saying but I think it's a little deeper than that. Often those words we use, like "good" and "bad" can be redefined based on the context. And there is a difference between the notion of a label and the notion of identity. How do we see ourselves? Michael Jackson had a song in which he repeatedly says "I'm bad". Was he saying he "Wasn't good?" Or was he suggesting that he was "good" in a different way?

"'Bad' is a song about the street. It's about this kid from a bad neighborhood who gets to go away to a private school. He comes back to the old neighborhood when he's on a break from school and the kids from the neighborhood start giving him trouble. He sings, 'I'm bad, you're bad, who's bad, who's the best?' He's saying when you're strong and good, then you're bad."[3]

So in this song Michael Jackson is actually defending this identity against those who would like to reclassify him as being weak. I can identify with this because I went to a private school for a couple years and got picked on when I came back by kids who thought I was soft. In the streets you had to be "hard" and the streets would test you (your survival ability) if it thought you weren't. But just because other people want to define themselves as one thing... that doesn't make you "less than". It doesn't change the definition of who YOU are. So my point about grey Jedi is that it is often used as a judgment against Jedi, in a similar way saying they are "weak" or "corny" etc. just like a kid who goes to private school. But it doesn't change who that kid is. It's not what the words are per se, but what they mean.

Do we really need a word other than Jedi?

Grey was originally devised to allow Light-Sided characters access to Dark Side Force powers in video games. Plus it makes an otherwise morally-absolute universe a little more interesting. Most of what I've seen of Grey Jedi is little more than excuses for not living up to the Jedi image. Grey isn't really applicable to the real world because we don't live in a morally absolute world, unlike the Star Wars fiction which is a very clearly cut setting.

@Zenchi; I remember reading somewhere that Bioware based a lot of their SW:TOR characters on what they could learn about LaVeyan Satanism. But yes, I HIGHLY agree with you (and suggested to Ally on Discord recently) that it might be effective to create a comprehensive thread on the Sith and the Dark Aspect and then sticky it.