O.B.E.'s

What you do not buy into cannot influence you. There is no risk in being unconvinced of something that may in fact be accurate, but there is always a risk in being convinced of something that may not be. Now, this can be said of anything, so there is an argument to be had to... proportion your confidence to the evidence, if you will, to respect how much of any belief is warranted. Sometimes the risk is as low as a disposition to be less critical and buy into things more strongly than is warranted, because one already softened one's critical faculties enough to permit the one unwarranted belief. I for one don't believe that the fact that we are not perfect thinkers all of the time, that we take some things for granted (when we really shouldn't) is an excuse to be sloppy on any one given question, but that was the first and most immediate response you gave, point in case.

You go on to compare the topic at hand to questions like the faithfulness of our partners, which in my opinion we should appreciate for the precious good it is and never take for granted, and likewise make our own faithfulness evident to them lest they assume it on no grounds. The likelihood of your being promoted (in what time frame?) may depend on more variables you know the values of, but you don't just pick a number between naught and one and say that this is it, do you? No, you instead take educated guesses about your work performance, the performance of your peers, the number of open positions in the next tier, the current economic health of the company and your relationship with your fellow employees and your employer. You are being far, far more careful drawing conclusions, and yet the amount of information you have is so far greater and more detailed. The veracity of the media is also something you not only needn't but I believe shouldn't ever take for granted, let alone when there is so much evidence of how boldly and blatantly it can lie to you on just about anything, more evidence piling up day by day. Let's be fair here, these examples are nothing like OBEs, not if you treat them all fairly and with rigor.

To answer your question to me (or the likes of me, if you will) more explicitly, the easy and quick response is that what ever is asserted without evidence can (maybe even should) be dismissed without evidence. Yet I would not say that I dismiss things like supernatural bases for OBEs as "false". I just remain unconvinced until something, anything convinces me, if there is anything that can. I do not choose to actively withhold belief either. I don't know how anybody could.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Magnus Staar wrote: Risk management. We do the same with many things that we take for granted as real.

I know that I might be wrong. But as long as I am not hung up on the experience I had, what harm is there in believing it might have been real as well?

This could work with a bunch of "real" things, such as believing in the faithfulness of my spouse, the veracity of our media, and my likelihood to get promoted at work. Lots of variables, lots of unknowns, and all we can is manage probability.

On the flip side, I ask you, why so quick to dismiss OBEs (or any ESP-like experience) as false?

This is just a version of Pascals wager. Hedging your bets "just in case". What this boils down to is that you would rather live your life according to your best fantasy rather than actually pursuing truth. Sometimes lifes pursuits lead us to truths we don't prefer or to questions we can't answer. When we find ourselves in these places its ok to just say "we dont know". This is just the nature of our existence. What I don't understand is why people then decide to abandon logic and make a leap to a madeup belief that there is no evidence for. As a Jedi don't you feel the pursuit of truth should take persistence over devolving into a belief in superstition or invented fantasy?

I'm going to choose here to react rather than observe. Kyrin, while many likely appreciate your very rationalist approach to these sorts of things - your assertions of your own correctness are almost all appeals to perceived authorities. Science is almost always playing catch up, and is easily fallible. Throughout this whole thread you have spoken down to others who are trying to have a discussion on a subject which you have dismissed as some kind of nonsensical hocus pocus. At a certain point, you've got to realize that you've had your say and at this point you're just being argumentative because others have a different perspective informed by other sources. Your last statement is very "No True Scotsman". I'm sorry that science hasn't caught up to this yet, but for crying out loud we were discussing the idea of indivisible units of matter which combine to create all physical things thousands of years before atoms were discovered. Pardon us if there is some indication that whatever science says isn't the final word.

As for the subject at hand, I have some experience in OBE's myself. Since I have also had minor forays with Lucid Dreaming, I can say with relative confidence that there is a qualitative experience. With the OBE I was intensely aware of my body's location in space and time, but my movement was not limited to this. Has anybody else noticed this phenomenon?

@nai_elyob,

My comments are not an appeal to authority. They are an appeal to evidence. I'm also not asserting (or saying science is asserting) that OBEs definitely do not exist. I'm saying that until sufficient consistent evidence is produced the correct default stance to take should be one of doubt.

In fact one day we may be able to show that OBEs exist but we also need to keep in mind that extraordinary claims such as this require extraordinary evidence. Given that and the amount of effort already expended to show they do exist having failed to prove them, the chances are slimming. However, your right, that day may yet come. But until that day does come it is a dangerous stance to take to make leaps into claims such as this. They serve only to erode the advancements we have made as a species through superstitious practices that deny our next generations proper education and our current generations subjection to the potential for persecutions in the name of something that is ultimately meaningless.

Finally this OP was made in an open discussion forum, implying anyone can comment with any opinion. Had this post been made in the paranormal board etc I would not post in it out of respect for the nature of that forum. In light of this your attempts to dismiss me from the conversation are unfounded.

Nai_Elyob wrote: ... Science is almost always playing catch up...

Yes. And other approaches to studying nature don't. Thanks to science trying to catch up it gets somewhere, and rather far at that, as I'm sure the phone or computer you are writing from is... I was going to say "living, breathing witness to", but we're not quite there yet. At any rate, I appreciate your frustration with how slowly science progresses. I, too, wish that we could visit distant stars, be rid of cancer, and of world hunger. Please, do inform us when you hear of a species of non-curious non-science-minded social monkeys get there, if we can adopt their solutions news like that will surely change the world.

... and is easily fallible.

No. At this point it is quite the challenge to fool a scientist in their own field, much less the community of experts in that field. To a complete lay person it is even difficult to fool a scientist in a related field, and to a woo-peddler it is impossible to fool a completely scientifically uneducated sceptic. It is fallible, as anything of human origin is, but it is not "easily" fallible. It is by far the most robust and reliable systems we have and it is improving by the minute, all the time.

At a certain point, you've got to realize that you've had your say and at this point you're just being argumentative because others have a different perspective informed by other sources.

I think the problem is the sources, how the ones named are so unreliable in comparison that we might as well say they are not reliable at all. Also, when you say that Kyrin has "had [her] say", is that a tacit plea for her to kindly shut up because you have had enough of her (admittedly) somewhat rough treatment?

I'm sorry that science hasn't caught up to this yet

You make it sound like there is something to be caught up with. Can I haz some evudonz plz?

... we were discussing the idea of indivisible units of matter which combine to create all physical things thousands of years before atoms were discovered.

You weren't, but if you wish to take credit for that, be my guest. They said that the fundamental parts of matter were indivisible particles of water, earth, fire, air, and magic. Later people who felt like following their tradition were looking for the stone that turns wood into gold and grants eternal life. Need I go on? Take credit for the "achievements" of the pre-science crowd, if you must, they are few and far between, and petty even at that, so I shan't be greedy. Take 'em.

Pardon us if there is some indication that whatever science says isn't the final word.

I suppose it's not the final word, but it is the latest one for now. Again, do feel free to take all the first, non-science words if you like. Neither of us will have the final word after all, but I'm quite happy with the best and latest and I'll even share if you want them, too.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: When we find ourselves in these places its ok to just say "we dont know". This is just the nature of our existence. What I don't understand is why people then decide to abandon logic and make a leap to a madeup belief that there is no evidence for.

Well, I see your point. And yes, I admit, I just don't know. It's anyone's guess what exactly it is what I experienced, and as I said, I have no control over it nor do I know that it could happen again, whatever it was.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: As a Jedi don't you feel the pursuit of truth should take persistence over devolving into a belief in superstition or invented fantasy?

I don't know. My personal belief is that "ultimate reality" is probably unknowable, so I just work with whatever working knowledge I can get my hands on. Thus, I'm less concerned with the "pursuit of truth" as I am with working on molding my reality.

How many people Jedi here believe in the existence of the human soul, or a deity of some sort?

Gisteron wrote: What you do not buy into cannot influence you. There is no risk in being unconvinced of something that may in fact be accurate, but there is always a risk in being convinced of something that may not be.

To answer your question to me (or the likes of me, if you will) more explicitly, the easy and quick response is that what ever is asserted without evidence can (maybe even should) be dismissed without evidence. Yet I would not say that I dismiss things like supernatural bases for OBEs as "false". I just remain unconvinced until something, anything convinces me, if there is anything that can. I do not choose to actively withhold belief either. I don't know how anybody could.

I agree with your last response, though I fail to see how believing that I once experienced something out of the normal that gave me remote information would be able to negatively influence me.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I'm saying that until sufficient consistent evidence is produced the correct default stance to take should be one of doubt.

Completely agreed. Doubt works both ways; you doubt OBEs are real, but you also doubt that they don't exist. We shouldn't be too adamant in deciding either stance is correct.

And I wonder, "correct" for whom? I don't mind being a little crazy, I have no need for a persona that portrays perfection.

It is unfortunate that any discussion on esoteric or mystical experience is confined to the paranormal board. Feels an awful lot like stigmatization. This is exactly the kind of thing I experienced as a pagan in the Unitarian Universalist Church. Lots of lip service to the acceptance of different beliefs, and then as soon as we leave the realm of rational materialism I become a "woo-peddler" who came to "erode the advancements we have made as a species". Every time. Without fail.

Nai_Elyob wrote: It is unfortunate that any discussion on esoteric or mystical experience is confined to the paranormal board. Feels an awful lot like stigmatization. This is exactly the kind of thing I experienced as a pagan in the Unitarian Universalist Church. Lots of lip service to the acceptance of different beliefs, and then as soon as we leave the realm of rational materialism I become a "woo-peddler" who came to "erode the advancements we have made as a species". Every time. Without fail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDx6IF2GGSg


Also, I don't know about UU, but here nobody called you a woo-peddler nor accused you of the purpose to erode any advancements anybody made. Materialism, likewise, is a rather uncommon view here, if at all represented and paranormal only feels stigmatizing to those who deem it a dirty word. Do you feel like paranormal is somehow bad? I don't...

Magnus Staar wrote: How many people Jedi here believe in the existence of the human soul, or a deity of some sort?

Your right that many probably do. Others may consider "the force" as something with sentience as well. But to make these leaps in faith, to leave the realm of logic and come to these conclusions is based in nothing more than wishful thinking. I'm not saying don't explore, we should always be curious but we should also let evidence guide us to conclusion not the other way around. And sometimes those conclusions are "We don't know". That doesn't mean we will never know because science is not about a destination, it's as much about the journey as any i individual Jedis path here. But that also does not mean we should just make something up in the mean time either.

Sorry if i come off as so animate in some of my replies. These things are pet peeves for me. Right now in my home state there is a bill going through the state legislature that will allow the teaching of creationism alongside evolution. This is one of the most dangerous things we could ever allow because it is a teaching based in superstition not critical thinking and logic or science. If we allow these things they will only serve to return us to the stone age.