Machiavelli's advice for nice guys

Having read the other comments I'm going to go in a slightly different direction...

I'm a senior manager in my job.. and part of my job is to lead, something that I'm not particularly natural for so I look at those leaders around me to see how they do things, to see who succeeds and who doesn't. Do you know who succeeds? The ones who a firm but fair, not the manipulators, because they destroy morale. The more controlling ones, the ones who sweet talk some but punish others, end up behind and angry; everyone loses. Those that are fair and open and honest, find their staff want to work for them, and those people want to succeed; everyone wins.

I can think of a few leaders in history just off the top of my head who tried to be what Machiavelli is suggesting, who ended up the 'losers'.

I'm not convinced by his arguments (and I have read 'The Prince').

There have been lots of great replies here, thank you all.

Personally, I believe that growing under the influence of Christian values has sweked our appreciation of how the world works. You see, the problem itself is not that we choose to turn the other cheek. One might very well enjoy that type of martyrdom, the same way a soldier bravely clings to honor when sacrificing himself for something he or she sees as bigger than themselves.

The problem, I believe, is when our choices are made not fully aware of how the world works. If we choose to turn the other cheek but then feel flabbergasted when the world did not change by the WWJD approach, then we have an issue.

I do not believe this video was inciting people to become manipulative and win at all costs (it might have been Machiavelli's original intent, but not the video's), but to become aware about how the world works in order to avoid being manipulated into the wrong kind of action.

Of course many will still sacrifice themselves for their principles/religion/country/etc. But it should be done because one truly believes in taking said action, not because one is under the impression that they will get 72 virgins on the other side.

Edan wrote: I'm a senior manager in my job.. and part of my job is to lead, something that I'm not particularly natural for so I look at those leaders around me to see how they do things, to see who succeeds and who doesn't. Do you know who succeeds? The ones who a firm but fair, not the manipulators, because they destroy morale. The more controlling ones, the ones who sweet talk some but punish others, end up behind and angry; everyone loses. Those that are fair and open and honest, find their staff want to work for them, and those people want to succeed; everyone wins.

Similarly, Edan, this is a matter of facing the realities of cause and consequence. At my job we've had to let people go for poor results. Does that make me a bad boss? Some people I've come across have literally driven themselves into bankruptcy because they wanted to be the cool boss that was permissive and created a good work environment.

The video does not incite to become the manipulator. Just to face the reality that there is cause and there is consequence, and no amount of faith in illusions (such as being an excessively permissive boss) is going to change that. Honesty in the workplace builds morale and team cohesion, as you say, and that is why it is the best course of action. Why does the CIA have covert ops, though?

I could be way way wrong here but my take is that Machiavelli was incredibly cynical about the government and society. He saw society being controlled by the "Sith" and he thought the "Jedi" couldn't win without losing a little of themselves and using methods thought to be more "Sith-like" in order to win or at least in order to survive.

He saw this as true because of certain variables within a certain environment. Change the environment and/or variables and the outcome also changes.

We know that "Sith" can co-exist with each other. We also know that their behavior causes conflict and the better "Sith" rises to the top. They rise based on how much they surrender to the "Dark Side", doing whatever it takes to get the power they seek. In doing so, they oppress others and create the chains that someone else wants power in order to break.

Machiavelli wasn't simply saying "be nice but do mean things if you have to"... doing bad things makes you a bad person. Period. So he was saying put on a mask of goodness. This was assuming that the princes were just "acting" nice because they wanted to be loved; not necessarily because this was their nature. If they were a sheep they couldn't simply act like a wolf. But if you assume everyone is really a wolf in sheep's clothing then you act like more of a sheep in public while commanding your army to unleash hell.

To me this only advances the cause of the "Sith" and further creates a world in which one would have to bend to the darkness in order to survive.

I'm a nice guy. If that means I'm not going to gain the world then I'm not going to gain the world. But I can stand up for the values I believe in and help make the bad people who want to control the world unpopular. There is a quiet balance that is maintained. If a dictator is "too evil" they will be overthrown. People want powerful people to protect them because they're afraid of other scary and powerful people. But those scary people are only in power because their people are just as afraid of "the others".

I believe Peace is possible when our communication surpasses the government's propaganda; when we show the world that they don't have to fear us because we're just like them. When you come from love it turns enemies into allies and lessens our need for weapons of mass destruction. But the problem is our fear keep us from totally surrendering to the "light". Our fear keeps us locking our doors and not inviting our neighbors over for dinner. So I feel like the idealism that usually dies as one moves into adulthood is strangled by cynicism primarily based on our reactions to what other people are doing wrong. And that keeps us from fully investing in a way that would change... everything.

ZealotX wrote: I'm a nice guy. If that means I'm not going to gain the world then I'm not going to gain the world. But I can stand up for the values I believe in and help make the bad people who want to control the world unpopular. There is a quiet balance that is maintained. If a dictator is "too evil" they will be overthrown. People want powerful people to protect them because they're afraid of other scary and powerful people. But those scary people are only in power because their people are just as afraid of "the others".

I believe Peace is possible when our communication surpasses the government's propaganda; when we show the world that they don't have to fear us because we're just like them. When you come from love it turns enemies into allies and lessens our need for weapons of mass destruction. But the problem is our fear keep us from totally surrendering to the "light". Our fear keeps us locking our doors and not inviting our neighbors over for dinner. So I feel like the idealism that usually dies as one moves into adulthood is strangled by cynicism primarily based on our reactions to what other people are doing wrong. And that keeps us from fully investing in a way that would change... everything.

Do you think fear is just some vestigial construct in our heads, or does it serve a purpose?

Setting revolutionary goals is one thing, but there is no denying cause and consequence. If you walk too close to a cliff, you might fall down.

I enjoyed your assessment of Machiavelli, I agree with most of what you said. I do think the line between what is "Sith" or "Jedi" is often quite blurred though. It's extremely easy to be "Jedi" when you have no power. But when you are part of the powerful, it's tough to see how events might or might not unfold.

Magnus Staar wrote: Do you think fear is just some vestigial construct in our heads, or does it serve a purpose?

Setting revolutionary goals is one thing, but there is no denying cause and consequence. If you walk too close to a cliff, you might fall down.

I enjoyed your assessment of Machiavelli, I agree with most of what you said. I do think the line between what is "Sith" or "Jedi" is often quite blurred though. It's extremely easy to be "Jedi" when you have no power. But when you are part of the powerful, it's tough to see how events might or might not unfold.

Fear definitely serves a purpose. It helps us survive. It is the basis of fight or flight.

The danger is simply that too much of anything isn't good. So for example... maybe schools are afraid kids will bring guns to school. So they put in place metal detectors and security guards. Many schools look like prisons because of the fear of what might happen and while there is always a possibility of something happening is it really worth treating kids like criminals? Fear is something that we have to control or else it will control us. If I lived in Canada I probably wouldn't lock my door. I do lock my door because I'm realistic about where I live. While I don't live in fear I have allowed people into my house who have brought guns with them. And my feeling is, the more you rely on guns the more likely you are to use them.

Guns are a form of power. When you are ruled by fear and you have the power it simply makes you more likely to use the power in service of that fear. In my opinion, this is the reason why the Jedi always warn about the path to the dark side. It's about power and corruption. The more power you have the more important it is to be in control and to master your fear so that fear doesn't become your master. If I am a Jedi, I should be a Jedi whether I'm holding a lightsaber, a gun, or a nuke. People often think that power changes people. I don't think it does. I think power simply reveals who you are inside because now you have the ability to act out whatever your desire is (grab women by the genitals and such). People simply act shocked when they do these things (as if "the devil made me do it"). When I think of a strong Jedi I think of who they are in the light and how steadfast they are to their own righteous ideology in spite of how much power is at their fingertips.

The reality is that any Jedi could have more "power" if they went dark. Because it's easy. Hence the seduction. But power is a means to an end. If power is the goal... then that person has a serious problem and needs some hardcore meditation.

Of course the flip side of the fear is the ability of one's over reaction to produce the very thing you were afraid of happening. Treating kids like criminals has a psychological effect that, for some, becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And maybe if someone is too afraid of someone breaking in with a gun they'll shoot at someone they think is breaking in and hurt someone innocent. Or maybe just the threat of your enemy knowing you have a gun makes them get their gun and perhaps if they are more afraid of you and they're in less control, maybe they shoot you first thinking that you were going to shoot them. Fear can be extremely destructive if uncontrolled.

Power undoes fear (for the powerful that is).

The powerless must rely on faith.