A question about suffering

A wise sage you may know once said that fear is the path to the dark side and that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering.

While I was revisiting the video resources for the first lesson of the initiate program (lesson 1) in preparation for journal posts, I noticed that the interviewee, Joseph Campbell, mentions the necessity of suffering. He says something along the lines of this, quoting from some Islamic text, "do you think you can achieve heaven without having suffered like those who came before you?" (Serious paraphrasing, but the word suffering is definitely used, and Campbell seems to agree with that idea, that you must suffer. That life is suffering).

My questions about this are in 4 parts:

1) Are they the same kinds of suffering?

2) What Jedi teaching is the old sage from the "hate leads to suffering" quote referring to, if any?

3) If they are the same suffering, and/or no degrees of suffering are different enough from each other to be considered separately, does that mean that it is necessary to encounter--perhaps even participate in--the dark side in order to fully understand the force, or the light side of the force?

4) Whatever else you think is relevant.


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While the word "suffering" appears in both quotes I don't believe they are referring to the same thing. I've just finished watching the Campbell interview for the third time for my IP and I interpret his meaning to be going through the trials that define us - not easy, often not pleasant at the time, but a transitory phase through which we develop. Conversely, anger leading to hate leading to suffering seems more like a reference to a perpetual pain one might experience when they cannot let go of negative emotion or harmful attachment.

I don't feel I can answer your third point. I'm not certain I believe in light side/dark side at this point - there is only the force and the light or dark comes from imposing our own perspective upon it. While I embrace the concept of duality, represented most famously in the Taijitu (Yin Yang), I believe the oft overlooked fact is that the Taijitu represents aspects of the duality of a whole, not two distinct and disparate entities.

First, "suffering" is a very subjective word. I can be suffering from exhaustion, or I can just be tired. It is a state of being that will be experienced differently by each person. There will always be varying degrees of suffering. It is not "good" or "bad"; "light" or "dark". It just is.

We commonly associate suffering with negativity because it makes us uncomfortable, but most progress is made when we are uncomfortable. Without suffering, we would not know what bliss feels like. This is what Campbell means when he says that we can't know Heaven if we haven't suffered to get there.

Campbell is most often referring to the Hero's Journey; that there are inevitable hardships that we must endure along the way in order to be the hero in our own story. He also repeats often the importance of "following your bliss". We tend to suffer because we get stuck in our routines and forget to chase after what really makes us happy.

Buddhism teaches us about suffering as a consequence of attachment. When we become attached to things or people, we become afraid of losing them and that causes us to suffer. The quote from Yoda loosely refers to this concept in Buddhism. When we fear losing something or actually lose something we were attached to, it can cause us to become angry or to hate whoever or whatever took that thing away from us. This anger and hate causes the person carrying it to suffer and may cause them to act out in hostile ways. In the Star Wars mythology, these actions are associated with the "dark side".

The fictional Jedi try to avoid this suffering by "letting go of everything you fear to lose."

You'll also find that a ton of quotes from Yoda are inspired by verses of the Tao Te Ching which also speaks of suffering and attachment.

Here in our Temple, suffering is addressed most directly in our Doctrine by the 4th Teaching.

I'm barely touching the surface here, so dig a little deeper into the Initiate Program and you'll find that this topic is pretty core to a lot of Jedi teachings.

Axid wrote: A wise sage you may know once said that fear is the path to the dark side and that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering.

While I was revisiting the video resources for the first lesson of the initiate program (lesson 1) in preparation for journal posts, I noticed that the interviewee, Joseph Campbell, mentions the necessity of suffering. He says something along the lines of this, quoting from some Islamic text, "do you think you can achieve heaven without having suffered like those who came before you?" (Serious paraphrasing, but the word suffering is definitely used, and Campbell seems to agree with that idea, that you must suffer. That life is suffering).

My questions about this are in 4 parts:

1) Are they the same kinds of suffering?

Yoda was speaking of a very specific kind of suffering. There are many and all suffering is relative to the individual experiencing it.

Axid wrote: 2) What Jedi teaching is the old sage from the "hate leads to suffering" quote referring to, if any?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Axid wrote: 3)If they are the same suffering, and/or no degrees of suffering are different enough from each other to be considered separately, does that mean that it is necessary to encounter--perhaps even participate in--the dark side in order to fully understand the force, or the light side of the force?

I don't separate my life or the Force into "light side" and "dark side". Things just are. I personally would rather split things into "Productive" and "Destructive" although it's not as simple as that because you can't be productive without some sort of destructive. In the case for anger, sure, it CAN lead to suffering by lashing out and hurting the people around you or yourself (destructive) or you can take that anger, feed it into your will, and use that passion to change what you're angry about hopefully for the better (productive).

Life is suffering. Just a fact of life. The tough part is about how we handle ourselves during.

Axid wrote: 1) Are they the same kinds of suffering?

I do not think so. It is an issue of translation. It might be more useful to say that, in the example above, “Do you think you can achieve heaven without dealing with the same hardships and challenges as those that came before you?”

When you say that life is suffering, you are working with a sloppy translation of the term Dukkha. Dukkha refers to the shifting and impermanent nature of phenomena. Because we want things to be steady, predictable, and because we don’t want to get sick, get old, and die, this can cause suffering. But the issue is less with the way of things in the world than with our expectations and desires that run counter to the way of things.

Axid wrote: 2) What Jedi teaching is the old sage from the "hate leads to suffering" quote referring to, if any?

It could be a few things. When we hate, we sit and twist ourselves up over a person who is not present. We act out in ways that may cause us shame and may alienate us from the people we love. The suffering may be our own, but we may also cause others pain when we cannot deal with our pain and our histories gracefully. It can be very challenging.

Axid wrote: 4) Whatever else you think is relevant.

Hardship and difficulty give us opportunities to grow. Life will generally offer those difficulties without any help from us. We must do difficult things in order to achieve excellence.

But pain and suffering are not the same. They are used as if they were synonyms, but this is not useful. Pain is an objective truth about living. Things will happen during your lifetime that hurt you. Suffering is one of the ways in which we may respond to pain. If my expectation is for pain not to arise, or for it to leave on my schedule, then I will suffer.

As a martial artist, I impose suffering on myself in order to improve. It is not my place to impose it on another, save perhaps my child.(her suffering is along the lines of having to do chores when she doesn't want to, or getting an early bedtime because her grades are down)

The original definition of Passion was "To Suffer" It is now an obsolete definition except for those of us who do in fact study the Dark side.

In the Sith path, when speaking of Passion, we use both the newer understanding of the definition, but it is just as important to remember where it came from.

Its not hate, or anger, that lead to it, but Passion.

It is meant in both its positive, and negative aspects.

I can go deeper into how suffering plays its part in the Dark path, but I feel like I have been putting forth a lot in the way of what I do, and I try not to"Advertise" here. As it is, I have been getting more PMs than I am accustomed to with questions about the Sith path.

Its just that when I see it spoken of, I like to think at this point I am somewhat an authority on the subject.

Of which, for anyone reading this that has asked, no, I do not intend to answer you.

First, because again, I am not advertising intentionally, or recruiting.

Also, because well, if it were really that important to you, you would use the computer to PM less and search more.

The knowledge is there for the intrepid detective that truly wishes it.

1. I think all suffering is different. We have a general abstract that has a physical representation to each of us, but it's a word in the end. Kind in the same vein as "How do we I know the red you see is the red I see?". Interruption, intent, and reflection are always inherent. Even if we put that aside all but the abstract constructs, I think we would say there are general categories that we could make. Mental, physical, emotional, etc.

2. As for hate leads to suffering. I think that it is a reference to when you hate, you harm yourself even if you don't harm others. The resentment and animosity that you carry is a waste of energy and focus that you could be putting to another more productive use.

3. Possible. But I struggle to think of a concept of suffering that you could use without experiencing it first. In any case, I would take issue that suffering is an inherently negative thing, so no on the dark side?

4. I think the most import thing about suffering is that we all have to learn to accept it and to accept our limited power over it, both in our lives, the lives of others, and the world. We often take on a burden or complex about having to alleviate the suffering of the world. That's one a mission to stop all suffering by direct action, that's a call to arms to reduce your own, both that you effect and that you are affected by.

Axid wrote: My questions about this are in 4 parts:

1) Are they the same kinds of suffering?

2) What Jedi teaching is the old sage from the "hate leads to suffering" quote referring to, if any?

3) If they are the same suffering, and/or no degrees of suffering are different enough from each other to be considered separately, does that mean that it is necessary to encounter--perhaps even participate in--the dark side in order to fully understand the force, or the light side of the force?

4) Whatever else you think is relevant.

1. No. Self-inflicted suffering has a habit of inhibiting growth, while suffering imposed from other sources tends to encourage growth.
2. It is a blatantly black-and-white worldview that has no basis in reality because it was simplified morality for a space fantasy story.
3. Yes. One cannot understand the nature of light without understanding the concept of darkness.
4. I like turtles.

Can you expand on your #1 Steam? I choose to do my exercises and I feel I grow stronger from them.

Or am I confusing pain with suffering?