Our Chemical Romance

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7 years 7 months ago #259084 by Loudzoo
Our Chemical Romance was created by Loudzoo
In Kit's excellent thread on Leadership (https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/116006-leaders-eat-last-leadership-in-jediism) the speaker in the video, Simon Sinek, infers that the way we feel - our emotions and moods - are caused by various chemicals in the brain, stimulated by various exogenous factors.

I've seen this assumption in many videos and it is an extremely effective technique for making something as complex as our emotions simple to understand, in a way that appears scientifically rigorous. I'm not sure if that's what Simon really thinks or what he really means but I often find myself jumping to the very mechanistic, simple conclusion, that our feelings are caused by 5 or 6 (or 100+) chemicals, primarily in our brains.

I have little doubt that the buzzy excitement I feel before, during and after certain activities involve adrenaline, or the love I have for my children involves oxytocin but:

Can we say these emotions are caused by these chemicals?

To what extent can we change our habitual responses to external stimuli such that we can consciously intervene between the external stimuli and our emotional response - introducing a choice between the former and the latter?

This article on the causes of depression certainly questions the role of brain chemistry - and the role of chemicals in evoking our emotional states: https://chriskresser.com/the-chemical-imbalance-myth/
Warning: Spoiler!


What do you think?

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7 years 7 months ago #259088 by JamesSand
Replied by JamesSand on topic Our Chemical Romance
Heheheh.

I have nothing to add just yet, but this subject is of some interest to me.

I'll be watching this one B)
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7 years 7 months ago - 7 years 7 months ago #259091 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Our Chemical Romance
Make it 6 (add adrenaline), and then use the I Ching as a tool to understand its iterations, with each state being either max or minimum.
:cheer:

So if there are 64 extent modes, and each one can adjust to any point between its max or min state, then it gets interesting!!

Attachment he9e9a99.png not found



Not that I suggest that necessarily is how emotions are generated, but rather I think its a good guide to how feelings can exist in conscious awareness - which then propogate to other organs etc. Have you seen the heat map associated to different feelings and emotions?

Attachment h031168c.jpg not found


http://www.pnas.org/content/111/2/646.full.pdf

So I do hold the mechanistic view, at least to the extent of feelings, not so much emotions. I just consider it to be so complicated its hard or grasp. I differentiate feelings from emotions (and from passion and conscious thought) here if your interested. As I tend to think the subconscious does a lot of subconscious thinking outside of conscious awareness, I tend to view emotions and passions as structures of subconscious reinforcement in sets of feelings being associated to planning and memories, and manifesting as more difficult to treat then say just altering feelings.

I do think the brain works heavily in a self referential structure, and so while I do think feelings emerge in our body and mind from neurochemical mixtures, I also do think that both subconscious and conscious thinking can feed into that to drive those changes as well. And also that other parts of the body can feed into it as well, muscular tension, inflammation, gut signals. Very complex!!!

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
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7 years 7 months ago #259285 by
Replied by on topic Our Chemical Romance
Interesting article. It bears thinking that surely chemicals released in the brain will do so according to whatever other neurological structures there may be which trigger chemical release. Even a chemical imbalance could presumably be one symptom, "fixing" this symptom may therefore have limited overall impact. A chemical probably won't fix all the stuff which may make your life suck (poor personal relations, a rubbish job, bad living conditions etc) which could all be a big reason behind any imbalance.

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7 years 7 months ago #259289 by Carlos.Martinez3
I love knowing thing. I study. I love that man can try to explain things, try to log them down. We may find all the results we need some day. As Mr Spock said one time I think, humans are fascinating, complex yet feeble. Lots of "results" I like that.

I offer if one CAN controlled their feelings are they in controlling of the " medications" our brain gets as well?
What type of love are they speaking of in ur pick Adder? Anxiety? What types or just general. The human potential is a wonderful thing. There's a man I read about who can controll his "chi" so we'll he proved it my climbing everest in hi, boxer shorts. There's pics of him on top of the everest summit. I think stuff like this is neat. Thank u for posting! I'll b watching

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Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
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7 years 7 months ago - 7 years 7 months ago #259291 by Ben
Replied by Ben on topic Our Chemical Romance

Another problem is that it is not now possible to measure serotonin and norepinephrine in the brains of patients. Estimates of brain neurotransmitters can only be inferred by measuring the biogenic amine breakdown products (metabolites) in the urine and cerebrospinal fluid. The assumption underlying this measurement is that the level of biogenic amine metabolites in the urine and cerebrospinal fluid reflects the amount of neurotransmitters in the brain. However, less than one-half of the serotonin and norepinephrine metabolites in the urine or cerebrospinal fluid come from the brain. The other half come from various organs in the body. Thus, there are serious problems with what is actually being measured.


The author of the article seems to have neglected to emphasize that this works both ways. :pinch:

All the articles I have ever read on both sides of the debate, including this one, read a little to me like 'The Field'...

I don't have a strong view either way - I'm aware that, for instance, if genetic predisposition towards depression does exist, I probably have that predisposition - but I know that there's no conclusive evidence either way. Thus, it's a consideration, and at this point, I believe that's all it should be for anybody (but it absolutely should still be a consideration)...

Take anti-depressants if you feel so inclined, but take them in the awareness that no-one really knows for sure whether they work or not. If you feel worse (or no different), stop taking them. If you feel better, I see that as a good thing regardless of whether it is due to medicine or the placebo effect...

Yes, if it's just the placebo effect (remembering that as far as we know, it may not be), people would still need to address whatever is really going on, but maybe some will be in a better state of mind to do that once they have already started to see a sign that there may actually be some light at the end of the tunnel?

What we have to be careful of is accusing people of being the architects of states of mind that, to them, have arisen out of nowhere. And/or accusing them of not doing enough to try to dispel states of mind that they feel they have chucked the kitchen sink at. In these instances it can be pretty unhelpful to sound too much as though one is saying "it's entirely your fault that you are feeling this way".

Either way, one day, when sciencey people eventually get this properly figured out, one camp is going to feel pretty sheepish about having been telling people to do the exact opposite of what they need to do for so long. But we have no real idea which way that is going to go...

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7 years 7 months ago #259312 by Loudzoo
Replied by Loudzoo on topic Our Chemical Romance
There seems to be plenty of evidence that drugs affect emotional state: alcohol, nicotine and caffeine to name three common ones and various illegal and prescription drugs too. It seems reasonable that there is a link between brain chemistry and emotional state and in many cases drugs may really help those suffering with, for instance, depression. There are also plenty of people for whom anti-depressants do not improve things. It's clearly a very complex and individual specific issue that may or may not be triggered by external events.

When it comes to various natural neurotransmitters and hormones presumably there are genetic and environmental factors. Subconsciously or consciously we do decide how we react to our environment. It seems reasonable to me that some element of 'mind' comes first, 'controlling' the appropriate (or inappropriate) biochemical response which then loops back into affecting state of mind. The brain isn't just chemistry - it's magnetism, electricity and therefore physics too (e.g. bio-quantum processes) so it's quite possible to have different states of mind within an identical chemical backdrop. I think I'm arguing here that even within a completely materialist paradigm - it can't be simply just chemistry!

It's also becoming clear that the mind is not solely the preserve of the brain. We are embodied minds and neurotransmitters are released by all sorts of different organs across the body (see embodied cognition: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition for more details).

Fascinating stuff! Thank you for all your contributions so far :)

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7 years 7 months ago #259340 by Kohadre
Replied by Kohadre on topic Our Chemical Romance

V-Tog wrote:

Another problem is that it is not now possible to measure serotonin and norepinephrine in the brains of patients. Estimates of brain neurotransmitters can only be inferred by measuring the biogenic amine breakdown products (metabolites) in the urine and cerebrospinal fluid. The assumption underlying this measurement is that the level of biogenic amine metabolites in the urine and cerebrospinal fluid reflects the amount of neurotransmitters in the brain. However, less than one-half of the serotonin and norepinephrine metabolites in the urine or cerebrospinal fluid come from the brain. The other half come from various organs in the body. Thus, there are serious problems with what is actually being measured.


The author of the article seems to have neglected to emphasize that this works both ways. :pinch:

All the articles I have ever read on both sides of the debate, including this one, read a little to me like 'The Field'...

I don't have a strong view either way - I'm aware that, for instance, if genetic predisposition towards depression does exist, I probably have that predisposition - but I know that there's no conclusive evidence either way. Thus, it's a consideration, and at this point, I believe that's all it should be for anybody (but it absolutely should still be a consideration)...

Take anti-depressants if you feel so inclined, but take them in the awareness that no-one really knows for sure whether they work or not. If you feel worse (or no different), stop taking them. If you feel better, I see that as a good thing regardless of whether it is due to medicine or the placebo effect...

Yes, if it's just the placebo effect (remembering that as far as we know, it may not be), people would still need to address whatever is really going on, but maybe some will be in a better state of mind to do that once they have already started to see a sign that there may actually be some light at the end of the tunnel?

What we have to be careful of is accusing people of being the architects of states of mind that, to them, have arisen out of nowhere. And/or accusing them of not doing enough to try to dispel states of mind that they feel they have chucked the kitchen sink at. In these instances it can be pretty unhelpful to sound too much as though one is saying "it's entirely your fault that you are feeling this way".

Either way, one day, when sciencey people eventually get this properly figured out, one camp is going to feel pretty sheepish about having been telling people to do the exact opposite of what they need to do for so long. But we have no real idea which way that is going to go...


I'm having difficulty getting your exact intended meaning from the content of this post, just because there is so much going on. It partly seems like your suggesting that mental health issues are not biologically based but instead stem from individual character flaws and that medication doesn't have measurable effect.

I will say however, that having lived with multiple mental health diagnosis since 8 years old, that medication which correct chemical imbalance in the brain goes far beyond "placebo effect", and has a real, measurable effect on my mental state. I have tried functioning without these medications, if only for the sole reason that such a large percentage of society thinks mental health issues can be overcome by a simple change of mindset or through concentrated willpower.

Without these medications, I cannot function. I can be surrounded by food and will refuse to eat or drink anything except raw fruit and vegetables which results in immediate and dramatic weight loss at the sum of 5-7 pounds in one week. That's over a pound a day, and this self induced starvation only leads to further decline in my mental state.

I also in a period of only two days after stopping medication, begin to experience severe schizoaffective
psychosis which includes a combination of nonstop voices, hallucinations, delusions, racing thoughts, and severe paranoia. No person who is not affected by these disorders can possibly even begin to comprehend the utter hell that a psychotic episode entails, not even the romanticized version Hollywood portrays comes close to what myself and millions of other sufferers experience.

Suggesting that individuals with mental health issues stop taking prescribed and potentially life saving medical treatments is really a horrible thing to do, and that's as simple and as nice as I can put it - if that is in actuality what you are suggesting when you say

Take anti-depressants if you feel so inclined, but take them in the awareness that no-one really knows for sure whether they work or not. If you feel worse (or no different), stop taking them.


These medications have proven beneficial effects through not only scientific studies, but practical application over decades of treatment to those suffering within the mental health community. And please don't ask for some stupid web page showing bar graphs or fancy test cases, if you want those you can locate them yourself with a simple search

As far as for the last bit of that sentence,

If you feel better, I see that as a good thing regardless of whether it is due to medicine or the placebo effect...


When many people stop taking medicinal treatment for mental health problems, they cannot tell that they are getting sick because the disorder screws with their brain and impairs their ability to think logically and rationally. Someone like myself may go psychotic and think they are communicating with aliens through YouTube videos, and be able to justify the entire thing using deluded logic that makes perfect sense to them. They have no comprehension at that point just how sick and removed from reality they truly are because suggestions like the above encourage them to "find their own cure" so to speak.

So long and thanks for all the fish

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7 years 7 months ago #259342 by
Replied by on topic Our Chemical Romance
Is it ever "just" anything?

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7 years 7 months ago #259475 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Our Chemical Romance

carlos.martinez3 wrote: What type of love are they speaking of in ur pick Adder? Anxiety? What types or just general.


How do I define them? Anxiety for me is when the subconscious is working on thoughts with sufficient variables (unknowns) to manifest feelings of fear, or our conscious mind has forgotten something our subconscious hasn't, or some of the health related subconscious instinctual drives are not being met and its trying to get our conscious attention. At least its a connection of some sort to the subconscious, but its probably only a one way communication in that modality. Depression on the other hand, being that vacuous sucking empty blackness, is more like a disconnection or even a draining away, from the conscious mind. Not to say one cannot be both depressed and anxious, which lends to the difficulty in treatment I'd imagine! Looking at the heatmap, love seems to be a more stable and whole body happiness - and anxiety seems to have the heart and lungs working hard as the subconscious might be saying there is some work to do but doesn't know what (else the legs and arms would be at a higher readiness)!! So yea, I think the subconscious has its own activity and it tries to communicate with the conscious mind through bodily feelings mostly (though perhaps memories also) and in the same way the heatmaps shows readiness being an indicator of that same experience our conscious awareness might experience as feelings etc.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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