neuroscientist explains what's happening with Trump supporters’ brains

This scares me.
(Fair warning, there is some vulgar language involved so don't watch it if that sort of stuff offends you. I mean, the video offends me but not specifically because of the bad language...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9YPYRaeTW0

Goken wrote: I don't supposed you two could agree that neither of them are all that great?

Neither of them are — I can get behind that. We haven't had an "all that great" presidential candidate in my lifetime. But I would have to completely disregard every part of who I am, and everything I profess to believe in and live by (both as a Jedi and as a Christian) to support Donald Trump. I would have to abandon the truth, I would have to abandon my morals, I would have to abandon my conscience to support Donald Trump. And yet he is (as far as I can tell) the most popular political figure on this forum — the Temple of the Jedi Order, not Stormfront or an alt-right imageboard.

I wrote earlier in this thread:

Adi wrote: American politics shouldn't be as simple as who to root for (or against) in a game of football between two different teams.

That I do not support Donald Trump does not mean that I support Hillary Clinton. Why do so many of Trump's cultish followers insist that to oppose him is to support Clinton? That reeks of "If you're not with me, you're against me" — a kind of simplistic, childish thinking that has never turned out well in history. But is, I suppose, exactly how Trump would want it to be.

Adi wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: The problem is that this cycle of back and forth will never change unless we begin to reject this dual monarchy we have established in the Democratic and Republican party and begin to adopt new ways of thinking that reject fear in favor of compromise and cooperation.

So, we should all support a candidate whose platform is diametrically opposed to compromise/cooperation and is firmly rooted in fear of just about everything and everyone that isn't white, American and heavily armed? Okay.

Ignoring the reality of those fears is worse I think and there's plenty of non-white support for Trump.

Fear of Islamic terrorist is rational, look at what's going on. Hillary Clinton should get 5 years in prison for lying to congress about the weapons going to ISIS in Libya, there's just so much dirt on how the US under the Obama administration basically trained and supplied ISIS, then they tell people not to be Islamophobic and not to vet incoming refugees despite all the crap going on in Europe right now let alone the daily life in the Muslim world. When France finds weapons caches and Russia finding extremist literature and organizations in actual mosques is it not rational to want to keep an eye on mosques?

When politicians of past time had set the policies that led to all of our manufactering besides expensive niche stuff leave the country, let banks and financial institutions do what they want, the current administration pumping out all the skewed employment rates, job statistics, other nonsense economic jargain to confuse everyone into thinking everything is good and getting better, should there not be a little fear in where the nation is headed? Hillary flip flopping on TPP, but totally financed and backed by the same financial institutions that have been RAPING the taxpayers through bailouts, mortgages, derivatives.

The current and past administrations do not even enforce immigration laws on the books. Just knowing that there are millions of people in the country not only just working, yes taking jobs of citizens because they'll work for harder for less, but actually receiving government benefits even though they aren't citizens, should there not be some fear in what all this has and will continue to lead to for the nation? Of course we can all joke about how all Americans are immigrants and the real Americans are the indians to skirt this issue.

Don't get me wrong I think both candidates are crazy, but at least one appears to not want to follow the status quo and isn't trying to sucker everyone into playing the same game that's been played. I'm sure Trump will get us into a more open conflict with "ISIS" overseas, but guess what Clinton will also continue to intervene in foreign nations and continue the same stuff that gave the rise to ISIS in the first place. At least Trump will work with Russia to go after ISIS whereas Clinton will continue the anti-Russian nonsense to keep people stuck in the cold war fear of Russia actually being a threat to the world which is complete bullshit.

Either way we are going to see more terrorist attacks in the US and abroad so what does one do to deter or prevent them? Well you certainly would have to beef up security at our borders, this isn't simple fear mongering when you see how easy it is to get across the border in the south or how in Europe they even let in refugees who were flagged from the get go that went on to commit attacks. The Islamic ideology and belief system is inherently opposed to America and Europe as we are definitely pro-choice ideologies, Sharia law isn't going to work here.

Trump is definitely not the perfect answer, he runs off at the mouth too much to appease his followers. We know what we're going to get with the Clinton crime family just like we'd know what we'd get with the Nazi money laundering Bush family. They're throwing the book at Trump: racist, Nazi, bigot, antisemite, when you've got all the establishment media and useful idiots going so hard against one guy you know there's something good about him because everything they say about him to use those terms is clearly twisted or completely exaggerated to make those points.

At the end of the day though, they're just puppets because the president doesn't control the economy. The Federal Reserve is the real power in this country, just like the Bank of England any of the Rothschild central banks in most modernized countries. The countries without such central banks are the 'rogue nations', the 'terrorists'. Everything else is just to divide and conquer us by getting us to fight each other because our leaders are all actors and they get paid handsomely with our money to do so even after they've retired.

Adi wrote: I would have to completely disregard every part of who I am, and everything I profess to believe in and live by (both as a Jedi and as a Christian) to support Donald Trump. I would have to abandon the truth, I would have to abandon my morals, I would have to abandon my conscience to support Donald Trump. And yet he is (as far as I can tell) the most popular political figure on this forum — the Temple of the Jedi Order, not Stormfront or an alt-right imageboard.

I have my doubts that that is true, because I don't conflate volume of support with depth of support. But I don't disagree with anything else you said.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Senan

Lol i love ya brother but your just wrong about this. Unfortunately im in the minority on this issue (politics in general) when it comes to this board. Thats ok, to each his own. Best approach is to just let it go. I applaud your passion and i love the fact that you will stand up for what you believe and present a cogent argument that does not resort to the debasement of others, unlike this article does. Even though we dissagree on some things i enjoy your spirit. For me this is one of those battles that is just not worth continuing but keep the faith bro.

Love ya too, brother. Thanks for a spirited debate and a civil one as well. I know we're politically at odds sometimes, but you always make me question my stance, which is good. As for this particular battle, I have to concede that the more I look at the original article, the harder it is to defend. Politics aside, the article is biased B.S. Doesn't mean I won't try to argue anyway LOL. I look forward to our next give and take.

Akkarin wrote: Two cents from someone in Britain. It is my understanding both Hillary and Trump have some negatives. Hillary has a number of mistakes during her tenure as Secretary of State, but doesn't Trump also have lots of failed business and lawsuits in his past? Accept neither candidate is perfect. The political situation in America is rather horrifying from where I stand and the candidates are the direct product of it. Unlike Hillary isn't Trump seeking out division and using fear? That's isn't the kind of person I would ever want to vote for. I wouldn't really want to vote for Hillary either, but I wouldn't sacrifice the good out of desire for the perfect.

Regarding the psychology: people like stories. Don't give them facts, give them a narrative that says why these facts are worth accepting. People are emotional, guide them to your point of view, don't just point out why they're wrong or they'll act defensively and be harder to convince. Justify fact with feeling.

"The workers have no fatherland" is inhuman and untrue. The farm-labourer, miner or road-keeper is bound to hes native village or street, to the tradition of language and habit, by emotional ties as strong as those of the rich. To go against these ties is to go against human nature - as doctrinaire Socialism with its materialist roots so often did. Weaning consists not in the denial of a human need, but in its transformation. The transition from a nationalistic to a cosmopolitan outlook can only be achieved by making people richer, not poorer. The traveller, who after a long absence visits his native village will still feel devoted to it; but his attitude will be very different from the narrow intolerance of those who have never left it. The aim of socialist education is to bring about a similar change in people's attitude to their country; the fraternity of the poor and humble of this earth must become a live reality of the mind. The seems rather utopian to-day; but without a spiritual renaissance the socialist movement will continue on the road of bureaucratic ossification to the bitter end."
~ Arthur Koestler

Human beings are not that rational ; we justify with our reasoning - and promote a lot of conflict - what we feel viscerally. Unfortunately, we tend to lump our existential insecurities onto others and the more insecure we are, the more disgust we feel in regard to others with different cultural, religious or ideological practices. It doesn't matter if it is Trump and the Republicans, Britain First, the Front National or whatever nationalistic group spewing whatever sort of heterogeneous propaganda, people whose basic emotions, their insecurities about life and the meanings they can make for it have been shunted into regarding the "Evil Others" as the cause of their misery at the same time as their critical thinking has been blunted by bad education -- that is how demagogues emerge. And, as Alan Watts said : 'the emergence of someone like Hitler is just as natural as an earthquake'. (paraphrase)

Michael is right : people respond better to narrative (with meaning) than to merely a scattering of facts. Indeed, unless the 'facts' (be they really) are embedded in a narrative through which they can be contextually perceived, their truth value becomes basically zero. Also, feeling precedes thinking in just about all circumstances ; our primitive animistic compulsions were not only the first bits of our reason to develop, but they are likewise - still - the first bits to engage in our encounter with life circumstances even now. Even the most rational atheist among us still has the need to calibrate determinism and volition. We may not need God, so to speak, for our morality, but we indeed to need compassion. And compassion has to be seated as firmly in our feelings as in our reason. Reason alone can do nothing ... And expediency in Reason without human feeling is what brings about goulags, work-camps and genocide.

Happy Saturday, Everyone ... !

Alexandre Orion wrote:
Happy Saturday, Everyone ... !

At last !!! :laugh:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: What "Good" is being sacrificed here though?

Anything is "good" relative to something even worse.

Adi wrote: And yet he [Donald Trump] is (as far as I can tell) the most popular political figure on this forum — the Temple of the Jedi Order, not Stormfront or an alt-right imageboard.

Whether that is true or not unless you have interviewed a representative sample of members at the Temple such a statement lacks evidence. There will be many here who have opinions of the Presidential race but who have not spoken.

Lightstrider wrote: Fear of Islamic terrorist is rational

That looks a lot like an oxymoron. Dying from a car crash is far more likely than dying from terrorism, shouldn't you be more afraid of driving?

Terrorism is terrible, but it is such a minor part of our everyday lives. Why do you care so much about it? Now I'm not saying don't care about it, but have you considered that the continual banging on about terrorism is actually a distraction from many of the other issues you've highlighted? If people and media talk about terrorism, they aren't talking about other things. How much will fighting terrorism lead to an improvement in American lives? As compared to, say, tackling corruption or tax avoidance or the steady accumulation of wealth by tiny percentage of people?

Lightstrider wrote: is it not rational to want to keep an eye on mosques?

Which mosques? All mosques? Is it fair to paint every member of a community the same as the most extreme members? There are over a billion Muslims on the planet, treating them as though they are one identical mass of people is absurd. Treat Muslims as citizens. Treat terrorists as criminals.

Did you know that Muslims are the most likely group on the planet to suffer from terrorism?

Lightstrider wrote: The Islamic ideology and belief system

Which Islamic ideology and belief system?

Lightstrider wrote: Sharia law

Which version of Sharia law?


Could someone please provide some details about what policies Trump and Clinton have? Honestly I don't actually know and shouldn't that be a central reason why you vote for someone? It's all well and saying how terrible they are, but they are still going to be doing stuff, what stuff will they be doing?

I don't think comparing the threat of dying from Islamic terrorism to the threat of dying from driving is really fair. You may be more likely to die from driving, or in the specific case I think it was you're more likely to die from peanut allergies in Israel than to die from a terrorist attack. But when you consider that there is an ideology actively and intensionally killing people in mass, not just a drunk driver, or bad roads, or just being distracted at thewrong time when you die from driving, I think it's something that can at least be talked about but, like gender identification it's a complex issue.

It's not that I care so much about it, it's just when some politicians refuse to call a spade a spade, and then one who does call a spade a spade gets branded as simply spreading irrational fear mongering then I will at least share what I think. The reason that fighting Islamic terrorism is such a hot talking point is because pretty much the US/others' foreign policy of nation building, intervention and economic warfare has been the biggest cause for the rise and spreading of radical Islamic terrorism. Although in some aspects since the Islamic part of the world has been at war with itself since the beginning of time, perhaps there was some good intention there to side with the less extreme people to help the area progress democratically and industrially.

The thing is that the US/others started something it couldn't finish with all the failed/successful coups, collateral damage, general misery of a population from sanctions, then pulling out of places it shouldn't have been in the first place which created an even worse situation. It was also at the behest and served the interests of those who control corporations and financial institutions who the taxpayers and politicians of the US/EU are simply prostitutes for, and almost every war has been because of that.

While we are told it's just terrorism and yes even just blaming Islamc is what is done, the reality is that we are pretty much in a new, never endering world war right now between average people who just want to live their life and the highest class of global society that controls business/finance, industry, education, politics, but this war is presented to everyone as them versus Islamic/domestic terrorism, racists, etc.

So I agree with you that just hammering Islamic terrorism into people is a distraction, but like most exaggerated topics there is usually some truth to it. This is where we get into what to do and it isn't pretty, or like you said - fair. Muslims are the most likely to be victims of terrorim because of all the division, fighting and hate within their religious differences, they still live in a time similar to when Christians were massacring each other. We may not have to watch every mosque and have all Muslims register, we certainly have to be a lot more careful about propsective immigrants/migrants from these hot zones. It also plays into general immigration and enforcing our borders. It's sounds very nice and pretty to have a nation without borders, until your neighborhood is being sacked and brought to it's knees literally or economically.

I've been living in Russia's predominately Muslim North Caucasus for over a year now. The difference of living here and traveling to an Orthodox Christian state or area of Russia is day and night. In my experience Christians are by far more friendly, caring and generally have a more positive outlook on life, while they may hate the sinner and the sin, it's the Muslims who today still go and physically harm the sinner or sin while harboring a lot of hate and discontent for nature and just other people in general if they're not like them.

I don't use my experiene to believe this is the case for every Christian or Muslim, I'm just relaying my individual experience and thoughts to show I may not appear biased for no reason. But when it comes to ideologies and beliefs, it's petty much the ones that encourage women be treated like dogs, shouldn't be educated or work. Random people who've approached me to ask about my dog, or ask for money, have not even made eye contact with my wife or spoke to her even though she is the one speaking Russian because I don't understand. Also, my wife's mother is married to a younger man than her, and her uncle and brother slapped her, spit on her, called her a whore. Luckily, this place is very liberal compared to neighboring Chechnya and Dagestan, where according to Islamic tradition they mutilate female genitals to ensure women aren't out bringing society down with their 'natural ways', which is even less extreme than places like Saudi Arabia or ISIS controlled areas.

Again these things I'm sure you can find in any culture and things like my wife not being acknowledged doesn't happen a lot. I'm not trying to justify the war against Islamic terrorism or Muslims, just merely stating my experience with things I've experienced living in a Muslim area which at least give me a reason to be more cautious than I would in a Christian/Buddhist/Hindu area. Now travel to ISIS controlled areas, Saudia Arabia, Iran, etc., they're very hardcore and you can see the documentaries and writings of journalists or people who've been there or live there. It's a lot worse than SJW's crying about how white men treated woman 100 years ago, if you're gay or transgender you will get killed, if you are accused of cheating on your husband or you dont' cover yourself up properly you get publically humilated and treated brutally. These aren't things made up so that US/EU poltiicans can scare people into more war, this is daily life over there and is completely contrary to Western ideals and way of life.

Of course there are a lot of people who want to get away from that, Muslims who aren't so conservative and traditional. They have moved to the West and are good, upstanding citizens, they just want to reach their head to the floor and pray to their god and live their life like everyone else. However, the chaos that was started in the Middle East for the benefit of the global elite, is now being further taken advantage of by the refugee crisis that will enhance the conflict between average people, accelerate the wars at home and overseas for corporate profit, interest for banks, leaving governments and people in a state of total emergency and dependence.

So going back to American politics, understanding that politicians are part of the problem in keeping the status quo with the stuff I've mentioned, we have Trump. If you watch his recent speeches he has been giving they're actually great. Of course he's saying what people want to hear, but what's being said is actually what should be said if you're actually caring about America as a whole. Now, I understand we live on a planet, I'm not crazy about the brand of America and think America is the greatest place on the planet and that it should be the controller of world affairs and be the world police.

Depending on where you sit on the fence and what is important to you, Trump has released his visions for the economy and foreign policy. A president can't really do much though, but at least his vision of potential policies for me is a necessary stepping stone in the right direction to bring back domestic industry and manufacturing that was sold out by the international socialists who want to selectively help certain countries as it relates to assisting in their own futher global domination and to make sure some countries or people's are controllable and can't compete. He's outlined possible methods to do this. For foreign policy he said the same thing about how the nation building and intervention got us to where we are, that he was against the Iraq war for the obvious false evidence of WMDs to go in but at least since we went there we should've at least done something whether it was control the oil or keep up security instead of pulling out leaving everything in chaos and oil going to ISIS.

The thing with Turmp is that you don't have any history to look back on as a politcian, you don't exactly know who he represents (other than himself) to try to get thigns done for. Hillary on the other hand, you can look at everything, her donors, her foundation, the decisions she's made as a senator and in the State Department which, unforatunately isn't anything too positive. She fully 100% represents the financial and global elite's vision for status quo, further nation building and intervention, harming the middle class with more taxes and regulation, asserting the dominance over any people or country of her puppet masters. She just follows the political correctness playbook when it comes to presentation, attracting the people who need that sense of calm and false security.

Trump's not a good choice though, like Ob1 said this election is a joke. Even if Trump gets the economy back on the right track (which he won't cause congress has no authority over the Federal Reserve), makes America safer (which will just mean a more benevolent police state), stops dicking around overseas (which he won't as the excuse will be even though he didn't start the mess he'll end it).....

...many citizens have already taken sides in the staged/exaggerated conflicts of have vs have not (poor vs middle/higher middle class), citizens vs police, straight vs gay, male/female vs trans, capitalism vs socialism/communism, guns vs no guns, christianity vs islam, while all the while the central pillars of our society such as media, banking, industry, education, etc., will all still be, at the very top financed therefor influenced therefor controlled by the same 13 or so families who've been there for the last 200-500 years if not longer. Of course people think this is just all conspiracy theory.

At the end of the day though, I'll go with the wild card because there is a chance he can fulfill parts of the much needed American restoration, that is, bring the economy back to lifeby not bending over to offshore banks and multinationals, stop fucking around in places overseas we don't need to be, bring people back together when we can all actually work, take care of ourselves and families, get a real balanced education and media representation. It's a pipe dream, I know so I'll just do what I can locally to help but hopefully this gives you an idea of why I would vote for a candidate such as Trump - IF I vote that is.

Lightstrider wrote: just merely stating my experience with things I've experienced living in a Muslim area

But you don't live in a Muslim area. You live in a particular place in the world where many people self identify as Muslim. There is a subtle difference. If those same Muslims happened to have been born in a British "Muslim" area then they would behave in ways common to that area. What you are talking about with reference to your experience is really only applicable to where you are experiencing it. You can't say Christians are like this, Muslims are like that etc, because you can't speak for the other billion of each faith you have never met.

By all means you have a reason to be more cautious, but there are types of reasoning beyond the experiential.

Lightstrider wrote: Now travel to ISIS controlled areas, Saudia Arabia, Iran, etc.,

But you have to travel there... What the media report is not your reality. Your amygdala cannot tell the difference between something close at hand and something far away. Emotion doesn't have distance, fear of something is fear. When you spend time concerning yourself with far away happenings you get the emotion regardless of how inconsequential that happening is to your life.