Initiates Program Discussion in Temple Chat - Tuesday, March 22, 2016 at 1800 UTC.

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18 Mar 2016 13:18 #234366 by Alan
Hello Everyone,

IP discussion in Temple Chat at 1800 UTC.

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19 Mar 2016 13:48 #234550 by Alan
While any Initiates Program lesson can be discussed, this Temple Chat discussion opportunity will focus on Lessons 1, 2, 6, and 7.

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21 Mar 2016 00:25 #234734 by Alan
Everyone (not only Initiates) is invited to Chat this Tuesday, March 22.

Campbell, Watts and World Religions.

What's on YOUR mind?

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22 Mar 2016 13:19 #235082 by Alan

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22 Mar 2016 15:24 #235126 by Alan
It won't be long now.

Come over to Chat at 1800 UTC.

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22 Mar 2016 16:54 - 22 Mar 2016 16:54 #235168 by Alan
Almost 1800.

Come on over to Chat.
Last edit: 22 Mar 2016 16:54 by Alan.

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22 Mar 2016 19:44 #235217 by J_Roz
Chat Conversation from the IP Discussion hosted by Alan today:
(18:53:10) Alan: This is my first time doing an IP chat. How do I save the discussion and post it on a thread?
(18:53:12) Temple Bot: jpadkins komt in het chatkanaal.
(18:53:26) Aqua: Mm..
(18:53:36) Aqua: Copy and paste could be useful :)
(18:53:40) Aeris*Cetra: Hi everyone
(18:53:50) carlos.martinez3: (fluistert) hi friend
(18:53:50) Aqua: I use ctrl C and ctrl V for copy, and paste
(18:53:57) Aqua: ;)
(18:54:15) Bareus: I could do it and send it to you later Alan
(18:54:32) Alan: Thanks. How do I whisper?
(18:54:53) Aqua: (fluistert naar carlos.martinez3) Good evening friend Carlos. How are you doing tonight?
(18:54:59) carlos.martinez3: lol click the name you want and a under menu will pop
(18:55:10) carlos.martinez3: (fluistert) excited to be here
(18:55:14) Aqua: You can click on a name in the right part and select personal message :)
(18:55:20) Temple Bot: elizabeth verlaat het chatkanaal (Timeout).
(18:55:20) Temple Bot: IAmRoM verlaat het chatkanaal (Timeout).
(18:55:32) Aqua: but you can also use /msg [name] and then your text :)
(18:56:14) Alan: Got it. I just whispered to Carlos. Cool. I always forget from one minute to the next.
(18:56:26) Aqua: :D
(18:56:43) Temple Bot: Ju_Hae_os_Ra komt in het chatkanaal.
(18:56:52) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Hello crowd!
(18:57:10) carlos.martinez3: waves!
(18:57:19) Aeris*Cetra: Alan I don't think I ever talked to you before
(18:57:34) Alan: This is different for me in another way. I always type out my posts in Word and fix and fuss over them before I post it on a thread. This chat will be me unfiltered.
(18:57:37) Aeris*Cetra: carlos.martinez3 hi
(18:58:04) Aqua: (fluistert naar carlos.martinez3) I feel excited too, never know what questions will pop up. Makes it more interesting somehow.
(18:58:13) carlos.martinez3: is it ok to say ime excited today?
(18:58:31) Temple Bot: elizabeth komt in het chatkanaal.
(18:58:43) Zabeth: Question for anyone who knows the answer: Will we get "logged out" if we don't show activity in the Chat?
(18:58:58) carlos.martinez3: sometimes
(18:59:15) Aeris*Cetra: Zabeth yes
(18:59:16) carlos.martinez3: depends on what your susing and such for conection
(18:59:21) Temple Bot: jpadkins verlaat het chatkanaal (Timeout).
(19:00:13) Zabeth: Ahhh. Okay! Thanks.
(19:00:14) Aeris*Cetra: Is it me or did the chat suddenly become crowded
(19:00:40) carlos.martinez3: today is an IP chat discussion led by Alan
(19:00:47) Temple Bot: Avalonslight komt in het chatkanaal.
(19:00:51) Alan: Hello Everyone. Shall we begin our IP discussion now? I suggested that we discuss lesson 1, 2, 6, 7. But I'm open. Would anyone like to start us off?
(19:01:05) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Ya ya!
(19:02:08) Aeris*Cetra: You mean the program right? Alan
(19:02:59) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Talking is good. I have done lesson 1 part 1 only so I cant tell much. I think mythological thinking is irrational and should evolve into rationalisation.
(19:03:23) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: I dont say its bad, but its lesser.
(19:03:32) carlos.martinez3: any examples?
(19:03:34) Alan: Yes. Questions. Comments Let us use the ? for question and ! for answer.
(19:03:50) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: And I dont say it should not be present, but it should be upgraded to rationalisation.
(19:04:21) carlos.martinez3: got any ideas on how ?
(19:04:40) Aeris*Cetra: I felt lesson one was more of a I opener to different journeys each person takes
(19:05:02) Alan: :warning: Mythic thinking is not usually thought of as a lower form of cognition. The kind which someone evolves out of to higher, more rational forms. But a different kind of cognition.
(19:05:04) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Examples ok. in the chapter campbell says how awesome goals had the founders of US and creators of the US seal, the piramid etc. its very simple thinking based on 0 facts 100% mythological thinkink.
(19:06:27) Alan: :warning: There are several definitions of myth. "Myth is a traditional narration regarding the nature of the sacred."
(19:06:34) Temple Bot: elizabeth verlaat het chatkanaal.
(19:06:52) Aeris*Cetra: I think I am mostly going to listen and read other people comments :)
(19:07:05) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: it makes you feel nice about being american and think that others arent so cool smart etc. raises pride, motivates and so on. But its all fiction.
(19:07:18) Temple Bot: J_Roz komt in het chatkanaal.
(19:07:19) Alan: Other definitions: Myth is a traditional narrative account of the origin of an aspect or symbol of the sacred.

Myth is a narrative account of the origin of the symbol.
(19:07:50) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: the question is what definition did campbell use?
(19:08:10) carlos.martinez3: those are great questions ju!
(19:08:37) Zabeth: Hi Ju_Hae: I think ... if I may assume ... that English is not your primary language. I *think* I am getting what you're saying. If the Founders of the US were "more rational," would they not have "needed" symbols? Just curious. Thanks! --Zabeth
(19:09:02) Temple Bot: Jenna verlaat het chatkanaal.
(19:09:02) Temple Bot: Avalonslight verlaat het chatkanaal (Timeout).
(19:09:04) Temple Bot: Avalonslight komt in het chatkanaal.
(19:09:53) carlos.martinez3: :important:
(19:11:07) Alan: :warning: Campbell uses a variety of definitions in Hero With A Thousand Faces. Here is one: "Myth is secret opening through which the inexhaustible energies of the cosmos pour into human cultural manifestation."
(19:11:46) carlos.martinez3: how many here are currently in the IP?
(19:12:00) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: I am afraid that what he does is not using a definition, but description and these are different things
(19:12:13) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: I am in IP
(19:12:37) carlos.martinez3: thank u
(19:13:37) Alan: Campbell is Freudian in many ways. He sees myth as the expression of our psyche. They are the natural expressions wrapped in cultural symbols of our instinctual urges.
(19:14:48) carlos.martinez3: :important:
(19:15:32) carlos.martinez3: being able to understand that there are a many difrent definitions, my Jedi ism allows me to choose which and how many can exist , hence why we love the IP so very much
(19:15:53) carlos.martinez3: why I do any way
(19:16:12) carlos.martinez3: i believe in it and in those who find what they seek
(19:16:24) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Campbell distinguished 4 roles of the myth:

mystery - there is always more to find
cosmology - how all this came to be
sociology - what are people sopposed to do and why
pedagogy - what is a specific individual supposed to do and why
(19:16:58) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: thats why I see myth as a way of explaining things
(19:16:59) Alan: :important: For our Jedi purposes, Campbell provides us with a way to read the myths of the world in order to become mature, individualized adults.
(19:17:39) Temple Bot: nausica545 komt in het chatkanaal.
(19:18:01) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Do you mean dividing fantasy from facts?
(19:18:23) Alan: :important: Myth is a traditional narrative account of the origin of an aspect or symbol of the sacred.

Myth is a narrative account of the origin of the symbol.
Myth narrates a sacred history:
it tells of an event in primordial time
it tells how reality or a part of reality came into existence.
(19:19:30) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: You specified cosmology role
(19:19:35) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: right?
(19:20:25) Alan: :important: Myth can define social behavior. What to do and why. From ethical acts to how to fish. Yes, it tells the story of cosmological origins or the origins of humans. It shows the relationship of the creator to creation.
(19:21:09) Temple Bot: nausica545 verlaat het chatkanaal (Timeout).
(19:21:49) Alan: :important: Myths can be known, experienced, lived in the sense that one is seized by the sacred in the re-enactment of the primordial event (ritual).
(19:21:54) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Dont you think that "creation" is a way of explaining cosmplogy? After creations comes intention and the purpose of creation.
(19:22:06) carlos.martinez3: :important:
(19:22:25) Temple Bot: Codama komt in het chatkanaal.
(19:23:05) Bareus: (fluistert) Hey man, i lost my internet for a sec and lost the chat, can you copy and so for alan instead?
(19:23:15) Alan: :important: Science is one way of discussing origins, but the Big Bang Theory of cosmic origins says nothing about my relationship with the sacred.
(19:24:13) Alan: (fluistert) Hi, can you save this discussion for posting on the forum?
(19:24:20) J_Roz: Excellent point, Alan.
(19:25:07) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: How do you define "the sacred"?
(19:25:25) Aeris*Cetra: So myth is consider a way for man to explain the misunderstood
(19:25:44) Aeris*Cetra: In other words
(19:25:49) Alan: :important: Campbell: "It has always been the prime function of mythology and rite to supply the symbols that carry the human spirit forward..."
(19:25:57) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Aeris*Cetra I agree
(19:26:32) carlos.martinez3: :important: it is one of many ways avalible. The porpose is not to see like this but to think like this be open and see things diffrently
(19:26:32) Alan: :important: The myth will reveal what the divine or the sacred is.
(19:26:35) Temple Bot: Codama verlaat het chatkanaal (Timeout).
(19:27:09) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Who, why and how chooses the direction in which the myth carries others forward?
(19:27:22) carlos.martinez3: :important:us
(19:27:42) Alan: :important: For some the sacred is in everything (animism) for others the sacred creator is distinct from her/his creation.
(19:27:58) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: us humanity general or each of us can do it by creating a myth?
(19:28:54) Alan: :important: Myths are usually not created, as in, invented or composed. But usually are the traditional expression of a cultural group.
(19:29:45) Alan: Even so, an historical figure like Siddartha Gautama was later 'mythified'.
(19:29:48) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: I think that the sacred is not an object - god, world, life, animals, humans; but the feeling that we have about those objects.
(19:30:22) Temple Bot: Zabeth verlaat het chatkanaal.
(19:30:29) carlos.martinez3: a lot would agree with you here friend
(19:30:51) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: And the feeling causes a gollum-like behaviour - "My precious!"
(19:30:55) Alan: :important: For some the feeling is an indication of the reality of the divine, but the feeling is not the same as the divine. Master Eckhart stated that between the divine and me there is no between.
(19:31:11) Temple Bot: Bareus verlaat het chatkanaal (Timeout).
(19:31:27) Aeris*Cetra: I think sacred is more of ways we as humans relate
(19:32:23) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: I think gods are in us. They are personifications and externalisations of our needs, desires, hates
(19:32:45) Alan: For mythic persons, the sacred is what they share and the myth is saying what it is that they have in common.
(19:33:16) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: We need protection, so we belive in a mighty god. We want justice so he's also just etc.
(19:33:19) carlos.martinez3: ...i love that!...
(19:34:11) Temple Bot: Dok komt in het chatkanaal.
(19:34:34) Snowy_Aftermath: hey Dok :)
(19:34:41) Alan: :important: For some, the divine is the infinite degree of human attributes. The relationship is one of proportion: my act of justice is but a pale reflection of divine justice, one might say.
(19:35:51) Dok: Howdy :)
(19:35:52) Temple Bot: Jenna komt in het chatkanaal.
(19:35:54) Aeris*Cetra: I think each person is different , some believe God is an idea. Others believe he's all knowing what it comes down to is that we can't prove or disapprove he exists.
(19:35:55) Alan: But myths teach practical lessons of how to live together, what is moral, what is ethical, what is expected, etc.
(19:36:04) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: the mystery role - there is always more - we can be better than our current best
(19:36:09) Temple Bot: Jenna verlaat het chatkanaal.
(19:36:31) carlos.martinez3: the human potential IS possible friend!
(19:37:45) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: An idea can't save you. but a real God can. Thats why people in need tend to turn to faith again. However mostly those who don't fear death or anything don't belive in God.
(19:37:46) Alan: :important: For some, the myth of the divine is more like a principle of order that the universe appears as. Daoists might express it in this way. The Dao is not a divinity nor is it sacred.
(19:38:23) Temple Bot: Ke_JinnDakken verlaat het chatkanaal (Timeout).
(19:39:08) Alan: :important: Myth also tells the story of why the world is the way it is. The Question: Why isn't God always present? Answer: Because we were exiled from paradise and so God is invisible and silent.
(19:39:22) Snowy_Aftermath sees many voices and is unclear as to who is in the listening role, so she stills herself and listens...
(19:39:44) Aeris*Cetra: Ju_Hae_os_Ra I don't fear death
(19:39:47) Temple Bot: MartaLina komt in het chatkanaal.
(19:39:49) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: But isn't science the order that the universe appears as?
(19:40:06) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Aeris*Cetra do you fear lonelyness?
(19:40:28) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Aeris*Cetra or pain, injustice, brutality?
(19:40:31) Dok: Was just checking in briefly. Have a good rest of the day, all.
(19:40:37) Aeris*Cetra: I fear being alone
(19:40:52) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Aeris*Cetra thats why you belive in God. He will always be with you.
(19:41:02) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Aeris*Cetra at least I think this way
(19:41:03) Snowy_Aftermath: bye dear Dok :)
(19:41:07) Aeris*Cetra: Injustice no I alrea walked that path before
(19:41:21) Snowy_Aftermath: Ju, please don't tell people why they believe things...
(19:41:23) Alan: :important: The description of the order of the cosmos varies from one myth to another. Each religion has a different myth that explains the nature of the cosmic order. Science is but one description. Let's take some other questions regarding the IP. Anyone?
(19:42:22) Temple Bot: Dok verlaat het chatkanaal (Timeout).
(19:42:26) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Snowy_Aftermath I say my hypothesis. I guess it won't hurt them.
(19:43:20) Aeris*Cetra: Ju_Hae_os_Ra each person fear is different, death I'm not afraid of because I know other are wanting for me on the other side. I believe in life after death
(19:43:24) MartaLina: a hypothesis preferably does not contain assumtions Ju ;)
(19:43:34) carlos.martinez3: Any one have any IP related questions?
(19:43:35) MartaLina: assumptions
(19:44:28) carlos.martinez3: comments? praises? concerns?
(19:44:32) Aeris*Cetra: Sorry we when off topic I will be quite now and listen again
(19:44:50) carlos.martinez3: no worries
(19:45:07) carlos.martinez3: we have Mr Alan here lets use him!
(19:45:49) Alan: Myth is in lessons one and six. Anybody have questions about anything else?
(19:46:49) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: :D
(19:47:18) Aeris*Cetra: I'm still trying to understand some of the native Americans lessons
(19:47:34) J_Roz: Ears pick up...
(19:47:58) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: the rituals of hunting etc?
(19:48:11) Aeris*Cetra: Yeah
(19:48:24) carlos.martinez3: beautiful
(19:48:33) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: and what do you not understand? The purpose or the process?
(19:48:39) Aeris*Cetra: It's still a new concept to me
(19:48:57) Alan: :important: Indigenous Religions of North America are very diverse. One thing they share is a general belief in a high god who is separate from the daily worries of the individual. There are spirits for distinct activities, like hunting.
(19:49:28) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: very much as in greece
(19:49:31) Aeris*Cetra: When the animal dies it through a ritual it brought back.
(19:49:46) J_Roz: :help:May I add some insight here?
(19:49:53) carlos.martinez3: i fell in love with that part...
(19:50:00) Aeris*Cetra: Sure
(19:50:19) Alan: :important: No action is without sacred dimensions. Hunting, building homes, weaving, are each sacred activities. Native American spirituality does not remove the sacred from everyday life.
(19:51:15) Temple Bot: Ryder komt in het chatkanaal.
(19:51:20) Aqua: :help: Mm.. do myth require believe? Or can a real event become a myth too?
(19:51:43) J_Roz: I am of the Ojibwe People. I am an avid hunter.....
(19:51:57) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: I think that the ritual of reviving the pray cares about the pitty to kill the animal. It switches off the concept of killing an animal. You kill only the body but in your mind the animal still lives.
(19:51:57) J_Roz: We have a lot of pretty serious traditions when it comes to hunting/gathering.
(19:52:14) Alan: :important: Myth places the experience of a person into a whole/unity.
Each person’s life receives orientation and meaning from the narration. Thus, an understanding of human reality as a whole operates through the myths by means of reminiscence and an expectation.
(19:52:15) Aeris*Cetra: Ok I see a little, just a a other way to relate.
(19:52:15) J_Roz: It actually something the Ojibwe people fought for even in regards to treaty rights.
(19:53:26) J_Roz: We cannot take something, wether it be a plant, stone, tree, animal or fish without giving something back. It is a reminder of the balance we walk in nature.
(19:54:17) J_Roz: If I hunt and kill a deer I need to thank that animal because he is my brother, he gave his life for me to give life. I need to thank Creator (God, Force, whatever) for giving that animal to me.
(19:54:17) Aeris*Cetra: Like the balance of good and evil
(19:54:19) Alan: :important: How and why one hunts is expressed in myth. Another one of the more common elements of Indigenous Peoples is the idea of harmony and balance.
(19:55:12) J_Roz: If you take something from nature you must give something back. Such as an offering of tobacco, that is the most common but if you have nothing to give you cannot take. I have seen women pull hair from their heads because they had nothing else they could give.
(19:55:13) Aqua: :help: what is the difference between harmony and balance?
(19:55:19) Aqua: :)
(19:55:37) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: What if we are tools in the hand of the force? We don't have to thank it. We have to focus on our tasks. Not thanking for being made to do them.
(19:55:38) J_Roz: For a lot of tribes it is the same concept.
(19:55:40) Alan: :important: Out of balance is not thought of as evil per se. It is simply out of balance, disharmonious
(19:56:02) carlos.martinez3: mental physical spiritual personal? emotional?
(19:56:06) Ryder: :important: God didn't give the animal to you, and it's an unnecessary killing. It's not giving back, because you have enough meat to go WAY beyond surviving without causing more innocent deaths.
(19:56:43) Temple Bot: Obedient_Jedi komt in het chatkanaal.
(19:56:57) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: enough meat or enought food?
(19:57:01) Alan: Balance is a metaphor that can be thought of as the nature of harmony, which is another metaphor.
(19:57:06) Ryder: Both.
(19:57:59) Alan: Indigenous Religions phrase the hunt in different ways than a god giving the animal up to be killed.
(19:58:19) J_Roz: If I put down tobacco to go hunting I'm asking whatever celestial energy out there for a good and safe hunt. I am hunting for food for myself and my family. I'm not trophy hunting. There is a very big difference. If I am lucking and harvest a deer it was because I was prepared and did things correctly.
(19:58:23) Aqua: :help:Ehm.. so if balance and harmony are the same, why do you say ,, harmony and balance? I guess that I misunderstand it a little bit.
(19:59:16) Obedient_Jedi: mam
(19:59:42) Obedient_Jedi: Is this lesson 1: Myth?
(20:00:11) carlos.martinez3: no the floor is open for questions IP involved
(20:00:23) Obedient_Jedi: Typo
(20:00:32) Aeris*Cetra: Obedient_Jedi a few lessons from one I have been studying here and there
(20:00:45) Alan: :important: The primary symbol for Indigenous Religions is the interconnectedness of everything. Harmony is the essence of a balanced relationship with reality, which is sacred.
(20:01:44) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: I use "harmony" to name conditions that I am adapted to. I use "balance" as harmonious relation between specific aspects of reality.
(20:01:52) Aqua: thank you :) I will mind about your words for a long time Alan!
(20:02:06) Alan: The reciprocity of the sacred relationship of all things is an important Indigenous belief (symbol).
(20:03:10) J_Roz: In many tribal creation myths there is this concept that human was created last in the world and therefore a caretaker of all of the rest of the world, therefore we need to recognize our connection with the land, with the animals we share it with. Many tribes had no word for ownership. It was always about a relationship with the world. No one is better than anyone else and we all have a responsibility to the world.
(20:03:18) Aeris*Cetra: Sorry my mind works a lot different then most. So if I add odd comments it's how I learn
(20:04:27) Snowy_Aftermath: it's okay, Aeris, a lot of us are that way :)
(20:04:43) Alan: :important: For example, the building of a Hogan or teepee is a sacred activity. They are built according to the structure of the cosmos. Each of these kinds of homes is a microcosm of the macrocosm. Each connects the home and the persons living in it to the other planes of reality.
(20:05:02) Aeris*Cetra: I'm working up observant person
(20:05:09) Alan: Sorry: tipi
(20:05:14) J_Roz: ;)
(20:06:01) J_Roz: We have pretty awesome traditions about the longhouse/wigwam too. Even specific ways to enter/greet people and where everyone should go in relation to their societal place.
(20:06:09) Temple Bot: Mark_Anjuu komt in het chatkanaal.
(20:06:20) carlos.martinez3: any other questions?
(20:06:23) Temple Bot: Avalonslight verlaat het chatkanaal.
(20:06:41) Alan: Yes, also the sweat lodge.
(20:06:47) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: Changes couse disbalance. If we are adapted to the change/disbalance, the harmony continues. If we are not adapted, the harmony is interrupted.
(20:07:09) Temple Bot: Avalonslight komt in het chatkanaal.
(20:07:28) Mark_Anjuu: Hello. Sorry to interrupt but I wanted to join in and have only just managed a break at work!
(20:07:31) J_Roz: There is also an excellent book that speaks about the relationships to the cosmos. Its called Lakota Star Knowledge a good freind of mine helped write it.
(20:07:36) Alan: Some Indigenous ceremonies are for the restoration of balance.
(20:07:38) Aeris*Cetra: So I was wondering something
(20:07:54) J_Roz: Hello Mark! Welcome!
(20:08:02) Mark_Anjuu: :)
(20:08:15) Aqua: Good evening ;)
(20:08:17) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: I would say that if the change of the outside continues inside then the harmony continues. but if we dont change internally if the external changes then the harmony breaks.
(20:08:35) Snowy_Aftermath: hi Mark :)
(20:08:39) carlos.martinez3: aeris u had a question for mr alan?
(20:08:58) Obedient_Jedi: Yes, I've just started the IP, lesson 0 was straightforward as it was "tasks." However, lesson 1 onwards, they require our own creative paragraph on how we view the material given. How should I present this?
(20:09:13) Obedient_Jedi: ^ Question about IP
(20:09:18) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: As you do.
(20:09:48) Aeris*Cetra: The native America legend of the bill who took the girl. Then kills the father, she crys to bring him back. Could that concept work for the Belief of recarnition?
(20:10:14) Temple Bot: Zabeth komt in het chatkanaal.
(20:10:17) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: I suggest first write how you understand the material. Then write why you disagree if you do.
(20:10:20) Alan: :important: IP answers should be well written and thoughtful explorations of the meaning of the lesson and especially what it means to you.
(20:10:32) Aeris*Cetra: Bull not bill lol
(20:11:13) Zabeth: My most sincere apologies. My unit got pulled into the boss's office for a "fire on the flight deck" discussion.
(20:11:43) Alan: :important: Indigenous Religions of North America, do not, in general, have a belief in reincarnation.
(20:11:56) J_Roz: I would like to caution everyone about the Joseph Campbell information. His interviews were recorded back in the 80's and he was primarly focused on the Tribal Cultures of the Plains, which was extremely popular at the time. There are over 550 Native American Tribes recognized by the United States Government. Not everyone rode horses and hunted buffalo. I found his interview very dated, valid but still dated. You really need to look at the people of your region if you are looking for more accurate information to relate to.
(20:12:20) Temple Bot: elizabeth komt in het chatkanaal.
(20:12:29) Temple Bot: Edan komt in het chatkanaal.
(20:12:44) Zabeth: Hi J_Roz: I agree. Some aspects of Professor Campbell's dialogue were a little ... well ... dated, is the most polite.
(20:12:55) Mark_Anjuu: Ros, then I have to look to the Celts and Vikings! I might be in trouble ;)
(20:13:05) J_Roz: That means there are over 550 different languages, religions, ideas and concepts about everything.
(20:13:08) MartaLina: yeah me too Mark loll
(20:13:16) Mark_Anjuu: :D
(20:13:16) J_Roz: :D
(20:13:36) Obedient_Jedi: Thanks, I'll use them as a check list when reviewing my answers before posting.
Factor 1: Well written. Good vocabulary, grammer, spelling and punctuation as well as good literacy skills.
Factor 2: Thoughtful expressions of the lesson including the material
(20:13:46) Alan: Hopefully, students here will move on to other more academically rigorous books of Campbell when they get through with the Moyers audience.
(20:13:49) Obedient_Jedi: and what I think
(20:14:27) Zabeth: Literary criticism is good for the [intellectual] digestion! :)
(20:14:54) Temple Bot: Proteus komt in het chatkanaal.
(20:14:57) Snowy_Aftermath: lol
(20:15:05) Snowy_Aftermath: hey Proteus :)
(20:15:19) Proteus: i missed the IP discussion didn't i...
(20:15:28) Snowy_Aftermath: it's still going on
(20:15:42) Proteus: oh! :) great
(20:15:43) Aeris*Cetra: So back to lesson one,
(20:15:57) Mark_Anjuu: Therein lies the challenge of insights - the balance between mass digestion to enable the basic concepts to perpetuate, and the need for truth. The same happened when Reiki was brought to the West in the 1940s - stories were told to disguise the origins and made it more palatable to Western audiences. But those who seek more will find the accurate histories and will connect with the original teachings. Some will remain content to stick to what they have been told or shown.
(20:16:10) J_Roz: There is some really great things that came out of the study of Mythology during the 80's and Mr. Campbell's work is exceptional. One of my other favorite comparisons is the Clan of the Cave Bear series. Excellent historical fiction and exposed people to some amazing descriptions of archeology being done at the time and was thought to be accurate. However thirty years later we are stepping back and realizing that we got a lot wrong.
(20:16:11) Mark_Anjuu: Hi Proteus :)
(20:16:18) Temple Bot: elizabeth verlaat het chatkanaal (Timeout).
(20:16:49) J_Roz: Hello Proteus
(20:16:55) Alan: :important: It is important when discussing myth and religion to correctly identify their definitions of the sacred. Animism. Monotheism. Polytheism and Indigenous religions are mostly henotheist.
(20:17:27) Temple Bot: MartaLina verlaat het chatkanaal (Timeout).
(20:18:11) Alan: Other IP questions?
(20:18:46) Zabeth: Yes, actually ... (Zabeth raises hand) Or actually, a Journal question.
(20:18:50) Mark_Anjuu: And even within that there are many perspectives: some worship deities as aspects of the Force or specific manifestations of energy, some see them as a focus for ritual work, other believe in them as real entities. Each is true for that person.
(20:18:59) Alan: go ahead
(20:19:29) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: What whould be a general definition of "sacred"?
(20:19:30) Aeris*Cetra: The hero journey I thought that was interesting. I felt like it talked a lot on the different walks of life
(20:19:47) Alan: I'm waiting for Zabeth.
(20:20:01) Zabeth: Thank you. I often find that having read the IP lesson part, that there are other thoughts that come to me *after* I've composed my "response-for-the-lesson." It's OK to just add an entry? (I did this as an intermission.)
(20:20:09) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: What are the common aspects of sacred in all religions/beliefs?
(20:20:44) Ryder: Gotta go.
(20:20:47) Temple Bot: Ryder verlaat het chatkanaal.
(20:20:52) Snowy_Aftermath: It's Zabeth's turn.
(20:21:01) Mark_Anjuu: My thought is this: if you view something as sacred, then it is. It's equally true whether you do that by following a set path or faith, or if you simply act on your own guidance.
(20:21:02) Ju_Hae_os_Ra: kk
(20:21:13) Mark_Anjuu: Sorry :)
(20:21:40) Alan: :important: Journal writing is a wonderful habit to get into. Keep going when your are finished with the lesson. Post it as a after thought or whatever you wish to call it.
(20:22:00) Zabeth: Thank you, Alan! I will do that.
(20:22:05) Proteus: Zabeth, it's completely welcome to create appendixes to previously submitted entries to any lesson
(20:22:15) Snowy_Aftermath: I agree with Mark. For example, when I first came to the Temple, I did not understand that many viewed it as "sacred ground" and that it was important to behave respectfully. It changed my actions to find out how other people felt about it.
(20:22:44) Temple Bot: carlos.martinez3 verlaat het chatkanaal (Timeout).
(20:23:21) Temple Bot: Avalonslight verlaat het chatkanaal.
(20:23:24) Snowy_Aftermath: Also, Zabeth, you should see my journal, it's full of a zillion edits and mental notes to myself, etc. I think they like it when you get really involved with the study material :)
(20:24:18) Alan: :important: The Temple Forum threads are an excellent place to practice our Jediism. Clear. Concise. Specific. Thoughtful.
(20:24:46) Mark_Anjuu: My old journal contained IP work as well as additions or insights into my development. It's your place to be as frank as you want to be :) I expect my new journal will be just as... expressive! :D
(20:25:10) Zabeth: Hi Snowy_Aftermath and Proteus: Thank you for the encouragement! I have been absolutely delighted to engage with the Campbell material but have been feeling out how to share, etc. :)
(20:25:35) Temple Bot: r3dleader komt in het chatkanaal.
(20:25:50) Zabeth: Hi Mark -- yes. That's my natural "drift" but wanted to know the "boundaries" (if there were any).
(20:25:56) Snowy_Aftermath: Follow your heart on that, I think. Whatever you feel is most important to record, do that. There aren't any wrong answers.
(20:26:04) Aeris*Cetra: So does the IP program cover all sort of forms on religion or does it cover the basic beliefs throughout the program
(20:26:13) Alan: I write almost all my posts in a Word document that I go back to, edit, revise and then post. Waiting a bit has helped me avoid misunderstanding. Journals are free expressions but still should abide by the general rules of writing.
(20:26:15) Snowy_Aftermath: As long as you show you've understood it, you know?
(20:26:24) Aeris*Cetra: Sorry had to ask
(20:26:46) r3dleader: I linked one lesson to my google docs.
(20:26:46) Zabeth: Re: Journal. Right! I hope I'm making that clear in my responses to the lessons.
(20:27:05) r3dleader: 18 pages and I knew I would need to proof it over and over.
(20:27:08) Snowy_Aftermath: That's good advice, Alan. I need to start doing that.
(20:27:17) Alan: :important: There are a few major religions that are required in Lesson Six, but there are so many more worthy of study.
(20:27:31) Temple Bot: Ju_Hae_os_Ra verlaat het chatkanaal (Timeout).
(20:27:38) Zabeth: Everyone: I do have to leave now -- thank you all for your time today. It's been a little haphazard from my end, here at work ... maybe in the future I'll be able to be involved "off-duty." May the Force be with you! --Zabeth
(20:27:46) Temple Bot: Zabeth verlaat het chatkanaal.
(20:28:19) Snowy_Aftermath: by Zabeth :)
(20:28:26) Snowy_Aftermath: *bye
(20:28:38) Temple Bot: carlos.martinez3 komt in het chatkanaal.
(20:29:09) Alan: Final Question.
(20:29:22) Aeris*Cetra: Alan that what I have a great interest in is studying all faiths it what makes me understand each person point of view
(20:29:58) Aeris*Cetra: Sorry that was just a fast comment
(20:30:58) Alan: The textbook of my college course 'Invitation to World Religions'. There are many really good textbooks, find one and wander through it.
(20:31:55) Mark_Anjuu: I am always in debt to my first Religious Studies teacher at school who set me on the path of discovery of other faiths. It's been over 25 years and I'm still fascinated!
(20:32:21) Aeris*Cetra: Alan I will do that, I'm open minded to those sort of things
(20:32:35) Alan: If that's all. Thanks everyone for a great sharing and learning experience. We'll do it again. Don't forget Carlos thread coming up.
(20:32:36) r3dleader: I enjoy talking with people of different faiths. Though reading is important too.
(20:33:09) Aqua: Thank you for your happy IP hour Alan :)
(20:33:13) J_Roz: One of my favorites is God is Red by Vine Deloria Jr
(20:33:18) Aeris*Cetra: Alan may I ask you something
(20:33:18) carlos.martinez3: thank you alan
(20:33:24) J_Roz: Thank you Alan!!
(20:33:27) Obedient_Jedi: Same with me, thanks.
(20:33:40) Aeris*Cetra: Alan it's just a fast favor
(20:34:08) Alan: Can someone post this all to the Forum for us please.
(20:34:30) Mark_Anjuu: Thank you Alan - I look forward to hearing more from you as I work through the IP :)
(20:34:48) J_Roz: I can if needed Alan.
(20:34:58) J_Roz: I just missed the first couple minutes
(20:35:22) carlos.martinez3: as always we are just a pm away if you ever need friends
(20:35:34) Alan: Anyone have all of it. I don
(20:35:45) carlos.martinez3: not here
(20:35:51) Aqua: I have everything,
(20:36:05) Alan: I don't have it all either. I hit the wrong button and lost it all at one point. Thanks Aqua.
(20:36:06) Aqua: Should I send it towards someone?
(20:37:07) Alan: Who can assist Aqua with this?
(20:37:18) J_Roz: Aqua I can help you.
(20:37:34) Temple Bot: r3dleader verlaat het chatkanaal (Timeout).
(20:37:39) carlos.martinez3: may the Living force be with you Alan
(20:37:42) Aqua: Thank you, I will send you a copy of everything I have. :)
(20:37:53) Aqua: Give me a small second please.
(20:38:04) J_Roz: Excellent.Thank you. I will post it for you Alan.
(20:38:13) Aqua: :D
(20:38:24) Alan: Thanks everyone for stopping by. What fun.:)
(20:38:44) Aeris*Cetra: Alan thanks for the great discussion

"O Great Spirit, Help me always to speak the truth quietly, to listen with an open mind when others speak, and to remember the peace that may be found in silence"

Kaylee: How come you don't care where you're going?
Book: 'Cause how you get there is the worthier part.
Firefly Series

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