Why do people here feel unimportant?

It has been brought up in other threads that some members have questioned their importance here. They feel that no one would miss them if they left. They feel that they don't have a voice. That they are unimportant. This bothers me as a Jedi and as a fellow human being.

Now I have not felt this way here so I do not feel that I can accurately weigh in on the subject. I would like to take this opportunity to listen to why people may have felt this way. I would love to hear from those who have felt that way in the past and "found their voice" so to speak and from those you currently feel this way.

I would like this to not be about "What the Temple/Council/Knight/etc should do!" but just about what caused that feeling. If you currently feel lost in the sea of newbies or perhaps you've been here awhile and still feel lost amid the masses or if you ever have felt that way here, please speak up now and let us know why.

Thank you. We are here to listen.

Edit: If you would rather your posts remain anonymous feel free to PM me and I will post them on your behalf or we can just discuss it privately.

Life is a scary thing. I remember that alone feeling all to well. No one likes to feel alone. I concur with you Goken, We are NOT alone ever , especially here in the Temple. Its here to use and help.
There are a many Jedi here , who have years of wisdom and advise its hard to some times see the wisdom from the not so wisdom. Caution is a good thing in some ways. That's a tough one. I offer my time and effort to those who would need and want it anytime, hell ill give it the old college try! Two is better than one , ...right?

Great question, Goken!

I think that sometimes we forget that Jediism tends to attract people with a thirst for wisdom, knowledge or enlightenment and that makes for people who want to discuss things and believe their thoughts and opinions are valid. Many of us come into the Temple eager to share our wisdom, with "guns blazing" if you will. We want to make the Temple better and we share all of our great suggestions for doing so, but as new members, we may not know that the very same idea has already been discussed ad nauseam and there is little interest in doing it all over again. It is easy to feel ignored when this happens.

I dove into the forums believing that my intelligence (perceived, of course) made me an equal to everyone else because we're all one big family here. I started pointing out how smart I was with a bunch of witty retorts and clever arguments in my posts (which I still do, though I'm trying to be less of a twit). I didn't know anybody, but I was going to make everyone know me. I would get frustrated when people didn't rush to agree with me or click "thank you" after reading my brilliance. Then I started training...

I have learned that there are Jedi here who have dedicated years of their lives to the Path, many of whom are also Knights or Councillors here. There are brand new members who come into our Temple as university professors, lawyers, ordained ministers, theologians or other scholarly types. There are Jedi here who dropped out of high school that are much further along in their training than I and have a ton of wisdom to share. All of them deserve my respect. We are all important.

An online forum atmosphere is not always the best platform for these discussions. Conversations move quickly and posts are missed. There are conversations in chat, PMs, various restricted forums and even Facebook and Skype. Jedi post from around the world in every different time zone. It is easy to get lost in the incredible amount of communication flying back and forth at any given time. It's easy to feel like a "nobody".

The more time that passes, the more I realize that sometimes I just need to be more patient and remind myself that my contributions are important and people are listening, even if I don't always hear from them.

I can't tell you why other people here feel unimportant, unwelcome, whatever — but I can certainly tell you why I feel that way. Some of these problems are 100% my own, and some of them are a byproduct of the atmosphere, events, words or actions of this community or people in it. NB: These are not statements of objective, unquestionable fact. It may help to preface these with "In my experience..." if you start to get upset, since these are all just from my point of view and my experiences. I'm pretty sure I'm going to regret posting this, but I'll go for it anyways. Sorry in advance.

• I find that in this community there is an excessive preoccupation with being right. It's not so much a case of "I am very smart" as you might find in intellectual circles, but a case of "I am very enlightened/spiritually mature." People are very proud of showing off their spiritual progress. Since I do not have this preoccupation (at least, consciously) and have no desire to wage the battle of who is right or wrong, I find myself on the fringe of most discussions, especially because I am often doubting whether I am right in the first place — all I know is that I know nothing. There seems to be no place for "good disagreement" here.

• Interpersonal drama is not handled particularly well by the people in power. It is probably no secret these days that I was party to such drama last summer. It was not handled well by the people in power: I found that I was isolated and pressured into silence. It was implied by more than one person I spoke to one-on-one that it might be best if I leave altogether. While I've moved on, bettered myself and always try to make amends for my part in that nastiness, I haven't forgotten this, and it's a major part of why I have reservations about pursuing further rank here.

• Despite Jediism being a syncretic tradition and the TOTJO a place where people from all religious traditions come together, there is a sometimes spoken, sometimes unspoken hostility toward the fact that I consider myself a devout Christian. And not some wacky liberal universalist Christian, but an Anglican (Episcopalian) Christian. One that is sometimes unorthodox, but usually traditional. I feel like I am treated as though I have conflicting loyalties and that I am part of what has always been wrong with organized religion. I suspect if I was still a Japanese Buddhist, this would be very different.

• This is part of a bigger problem: those who do not "buy into" the TOTJO power structure by pursuing an apprenticeship/knighthood sometimes get treated as second-class citizens. I remember questioning a knight's argument in a contentious thread and a novice angrily fired back with something like, "He's a knight, who are you to question him?" I'm Adi - that's who I am. Being further along in [TOTJO's version of] the path does not make someone automatically better, nor does not being far along at all make them worse.

• This community is cliquish. Really cliquish. I'm probably guilty of falling into a clique or two, and definitely have been guilty in the past. But I try my best to be kind and welcoming to everyone, not just those who happen to have opinions I agree with or personalities I like. Others aren't quite the same. I get that communities-within-a-community are a natural occurrence, but here, the cliques are divisive and sometimes nasty. I've seen people get ganged up on in chat, and I've also seen gossip about people behind their backs once they leave. As an introvert, this makes me afraid to say much for fear that I might end up on one person's bad side, and by extension, the bad side of ten other people.

• The political disputes here are particularly nasty. I remember last summer, people thought the greatest disruption to this community would be the release of TFA in December. But it came and went. Aside from a huge influx of newbies, most of whom did not stay, did it really cause much of an issue? For some reason none of us thought about how nasty things would get in an election year. I think that's been a greater disruption. The forums are more heated than they were when I joined last May. The concept of "good disagreement" again seems alien. This deters me from participating, since anything I say might be construed as a political statement.

Now, I'm going to go find a bunker and hide for the next few centuries. Sorry, again. Also, sorry for apologizing so much. Sorry!

*long breath* how do I explain something that's only a feeling. First I want to start out to say that I am not in a good place right now and I apologize ahead of time. I don't have the capacity to pick my words as carefully as usual but this is important so I want to add my input. I don't intend to be calling anyone out here for any reason. I'm sorry if it sounds that way but I promise I'm not feeling insulted/belittled/upset. I don' t mean to be picking on anyone, just trying to answer the questions probably more bluntly than I normally would.

People are people. They make mistakes, they have feelings, we're only human, yadayada. A person can blither on and on about anything they want to and they're judged as an individual. Whatever, dismissible, right?

Now attach a title to that person. Councilor, Bishop, Minister, or even Knight. Now their words have weight. Now they're speaking on behalf of the position they hold. I can't tell you how often we're taught that as members of the US Air Force, we are the face of the Air Force, whether or not we're wearing the uniform. Why? Because we're who people see, our actions reflect on the Air Force, sanctioned or not. The Temple is the same, whether it's professed or not. WE are the face of the Temple, what we do reflects on the Temple.

Now lets also add personal respect in addition to positional respect. Now I trust this person. What they say has even more weight to it.

Now there's a thread where I feel my input and experience could help better. Hey, I know it's this way but here's some reasons why it could be changed. Maybe I have an answer to how it could be changed, maybe I don't. Maybe I just know it could be better. Maybe I simply don't understand why something is the way it is, but either way I pipe up.

Now imagine that person who has all that weight behind them say: "Suck it up" "Deal with it or go". This kind of apathy (truly felt or otherwise) is hurtful. Here I see something that I feel could be better, I put myself out there, and I get "Shut up and color" instead. I put my heart and soul into something I see as wrong and instead of getting an explanation on why something is the way it is, or even "I see where you're coming from, lets talk about it", I get "too bad, so sad."

You feel cut off. Like your words don't mean anything. And therefore, YOU don't mean anything. If I put this much energy into something to get brushed off like that, is further work worth it? Is this something I should really dedicate my already limited time and energy to? When the Powers that Be don't take your concerns seriously, yeah you feel unimportant. Add other issues offline, (similar experiences with other people of importance) and it's crushing.

when i had something critical to say it was mostly regarded as worthless, because people didnt like me or didnt like the way that i said it

i understand that the council did meet, i dont know what was said but i acknowledge particularly Br John made it a point to talk to me in private and allowed me the chance to explain myself

and small few people did jump in and acknowledge some part of the point i was making, or made a point which coincided with mine, and i was grateful for that where it happened - which i didnt say at the time and I should have

Br John and those few who spoke, even though i have had disagreements with some of you in the past, you all are the reason i am still here at all

but the community at large, quite a few who i have taken time to try to respond to with advise (WHEN ASKED) or to offer encouragement, or share some bit of trivia or info i thought would be enjoyed or appreciated, decided that i was just being an ego baby that I should shut up, instead of taking the time to objectively look at the individual points i raised and to ask "should we look at these and can we come up with some way to prevent this sort of thing from happening again?"

now, to some extent i WAS being an ego baby, and i admit that

but if you think youre not an ego baby too then you can just shove it lol, because yes you are

and it just so happens that i was also right in much of what I saying, and you can paint that as being unimportant if you want, and pretend that to a Jedi "being right doesnt matter", but thats contextual too, sometimes its NOT unimportant - but sometimes its actually kind of really important

i would even say that SOMETIMES its the determining factor behind who the baby really is - the one with the complaint who handles it poorly, or the one who refuses to acknowledge the merit of the complaint because their own baby feelings are offended at how it is expressed

in fact, i was told flat out "yes, what youre saying does make sense, but youre being a jerk so we dont care, go away"

it occurred to me after that, that i was spending too much time here, so now im spending less

im not resentful and i dont think anyone here is a "bad" person or jedi, it just became obvious that i was more attached than i ought to be, i still have affection for TOTJO, its just toned down

if you want to think that im still just being an ego baby then wah wah wah, lol
the question was asked, this is my answer

I am so glad that you all just say why you find you are not important, all i can say is that i find everyone here important , sometimes i express myself in not a very nice manner i know that and i am working on that , off course not everyone takes me seriously as i sometimes dont take someone seriously , sometimes i think "grow some balls" and another time i think " dont be a cunt " and other times i think "oeeeh are not we clever " and i even think "oooh god i love you " but i dont put that in my comments , i try to think of a respons to show respect of other peoples opinion even if i think i am right. Its not about being right , its about meeting eachother and learning from eachother , this is a learning place

We all matter , we are all one, we should be careful with eachother , without feeling that we cannot say what we feel , if i made someone feel unimportant may my hair fall out and may my luggage get lost at every airport ...in short , just dont do that !

I hope you find me just as important as i find you , because YOU matter

Having been dismissed time and time again by the very people that are so dominant in the forums presently and having been made to feel I should not be here by these very same people, along with my own lack of self confidence, is why I have felt unimportant, invisible here.

And that was how I felt for a long time. Now with some friends and a master that is open and understanding and treats everyone as important, no matter who they are, I am at the stage where, well I don't really care too much if I am important here, or wanted or not.
This matters to me, this Temple, my training, the people, even the ones who I will never really be close with, they matter because I want them to. I am here, if you like it or not, it changes nothing.

Being important doesn't matter, you choose wether to be a part of Totjo, you choose to walk your path or use Totjo as a group of friends. It doesn't matter. You can choose to let yourself feel unimportant or think f**k it.. I will say my piece, learn, live, enjoy. I will choose to be at peace with just being me.

I feel outside looking in sometimes, but mostly concerning the very things this thread is about. I'm....not in on the drama I guess. If I had a feeling about it all, I guess lucky comes to mind. Sort of like the cousin who shows up half an hour after everyone is done yelling at each other. I can't look at the world on a regular basis with cynicism and that includes the Temple. Nothing here that has happened is permanent. In fact, it didn't happen...it came to pass. As all things do. It has all ways been more of a work of art for me, a sublimation of my own spiritual practices...

In the end, I guess I just assume everyone here is what we claim to be...Jedi. Anything I don't understand about how people are acting or the things they say I error on the side of trust and curiosity.

I question my importance here all the time.

As for why? Honestly I'm not sure. I think it usually has a lot more to do with me and my own issues than with how others treat me around here. I've never been treated poorly on this site. However, I have seen certain posts made by others that have me questioning the importance of individual members. I'm not going to point fingers or name names but I've seen it happen. There are just certain attitudes I've seen on display at times that make me wonder. The way others have been treated causes them to feel unimportant and unwanted. Though I've never been the target of such behavior it bothers me to see friends and fellow Jedi treated like that. I've also seen suggestions shot down out of hand. That bothers me too. Some of us have ideas that could improve the experiences of all members and to see those disregarded with very little discussion is troublesome.

I've been wondering about why I'm still here a lot lately and these sorts of things have an effect on that. I've stayed mostly because of the community and friendships I've made and that's enough to keep me coming back. However, that isn't the reason I joined TOTJO in the first place and when I can communicate with those people elsewhere I begin to wonder.

Now imagine that person who has all that weight behind them say: "Suck it up" "Deal with it or go". This kind of apathy (truly felt or otherwise) is hurtful. Here I see something that I feel could be better, I put myself out there, and I get "Shut up and color" instead. I put my heart and soul into something I see as wrong and instead of getting an explanation on why something is the way it is, or even "I see where you're coming from, lets talk about it", I get "too bad, so sad."

As I explained to someone in PM (but in more words), a community is made up of individuals.. dismissiveness at the top leads to discontentment below. Leaders are representatives of the populace, the greater the perceived gap between them by the populace, the more discontent people become. Those who disagree deserve the same respect as those who agree, and should be treated the same.

If you (general 'you') tell someone to 'buck up' you're basically making it seem like their opinion doesn't matter... it does matter... a person doesn't necessarily need to have their opinion acted upon to feel like they're being listened to.

This is what I see in your thoughts, and is why (I think) some members feel unimportant.

I have spent as much time questioning my membership here as I have studying, and none of that has been because of personal reasons or doubt. It's always been because of the community.

We have the potential to be great, but a lot of the time we're petty, mean, cliquish, self-important, attached to tradition, afraid of change, and exclusive.

And the irony of it is that I've questioned whether I belong in a place that doesn't want me so often, and yet nearly as often I've tried to convince others feeling the same way that they should stay. From members to novices to Knights and other high-profile members, a lot more people feel this way than are willing to comment.

The steadfast stances against change tend to rest on the fallacy that because it's been discussed before, there is no new information to warrant further talk. What may be exhaustion comes off as arrogance; we've already talked about it, and there's no reason to bring it up again, because nothing you can say will change our minds.

And a lot of the cliquishness depends on how hippie (or butt-kissy) you wish to seem publicly. I've seen a lot of people here try their best to sound profound, and then get butthurt when nobody claps and tells them what good Jedi they are. I've seen some people here do a complete 180°, changing from real people to fake gurus, and their popularity and the respect they're given only increases, no matter how much of a pretty jerk they still show themselves to be.

Regularly I feel like this is a temple of hypocrites. Hypocrites that are telling me I'm not good enough to be one of them. And sometimes, you just have to stop and ask if you really want their approval.

But, whatever. My master thinks I'm cool.

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/108036-the-folly-of-pleasing-all?limitstart=0&start=10#161718

Worth a re-read once a year.

Br. John wrote: https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/108036-the-folly-of-pleasing-all?limitstart=0&start=10#161718

Worth a re-read once a year.

It's not about pleasing all really. It's about listening and taking on board an opinion (and showing that) even if it isn't acted upon.

What is a liberal universalist Christian? Is it the same or similar to a Progressive Christian?

One of my hero's is a retired Episcopalian Bishop - John Selby Spong .

I'm reading his latest book right now. Biblical Literalism: A Gentile Heresy

When I look at the tenants of Progressive Christianity they look very familiar.

http://progressivechristianity.org/the-8-points/

By calling ourselves progressive Christians, we mean we are Christians who… (as of March 3, 2016)

1. Believe that following the path and teachings of Jesus can lead to an awareness and experience of the Sacred and the Oneness and Unity of all life;

2. Affirm that the teachings of Jesus provide but one of many ways to experience the Sacredness and Oneness of life, and that we can draw from diverse sources of wisdom in our spiritual journey;

3. Seek community that is inclusive of ALL people, including but not limited to:
Conventional Christians and questioning skeptics,
Believers and agnostics,
Women and men,
Those of all sexual orientations and gender identities,
Those of all classes and abilities;

4. Know that the way we behave towards one another is the fullest expression of what we believe;

5. Find grace in the search for understanding and believe there is more value in questioning than in absolutes;

6. Strive for peace and justice among all people;

7. Strive to protect and restore the integrity of our Earth;

8. Commit to a path of life-long learning, compassion, and selfless love.

Br. John wrote: What is a liberal universalist Christian? Is it the same or similar to a Progressive Christian?

They are not the same, and while universalists tend to be progressive Christians, not all or even most progressive Christians are universalists. I'm a progressive Christian, and while I do believe in a sort of universal reconciliation, I'm not the sort who believes in an atheistic view of Christianity as Spong does.

As for how I feel about Spong, that's not for this thread. Then again, having to explain the nuances of Adi's Theology and Religious Views™ is not for this thread also. Having to face this sort of questioning every time I mention my own beliefs is part of why I feel unwelcome in this community. Did you even *read* my post, man?! 0__0

Adi wrote: As for how I feel about Spong, that's not for this thread. Then again, having to explain the nuances of Adi's Theology and Religious Views™ is not for this thread also. Having to face this sort of questioning every time I mention my own beliefs is part of why I feel unwelcome in this community. Did you even *read* my post, man?! 0__0

It was just a question wasn't it? I don't mean to make you feel unwelcome by asking that... :S

Sure. You could interpret it that way. But no one else in this thread mentioned that they were an Episcopalian (as Spong once was) or that they weren't a "liberal universalist Christian." I don't think it was directed at the community at large, needless to say.

edit in response to other edit:

Adder wrote: I don't mean to make you feel unwelcome by asking that...

You've got to be kidding me. Alright, I put my hands up: as I predicted, I officially regret posting in this thread. This thread should not be about me or about my religious views, ffs! When other people post about their personal religious views, they don't get anything like this. And yet here we are. This thread is about people in this community feeling unimportant and unwelcome. I'm out of here, in any case.

Adi wrote: Sure. You could interpret it that way. But no one else in this thread mentioned that they were an Episcopalian (as Spong once was) or that they weren't a "liberal universalist Christian." I don't think it was directed at the community at large, needless to say.

edit in response to other edit:

Adder wrote: I don't mean to make you feel unwelcome by asking that...

You've got to be kidding me. Alright, I put my hands up: as I predicted, I officially regret posting in this thread. This thread should not be about me or about my religious views, ffs! When other people post about their personal religious views, they don't get anything like this. And yet here we are. This thread is about people in this community feeling unimportant and unwelcome. I'm out of here, in any case.

See, I wrote that edit in all seriousness. If something can be taken 2 ways, one positive and one negative, it's not always accurate to assume its negative. I was actually worried that you were uncomfortable with answering questions - after I realized I was asking a question about someone answering a question.

Br. John wrote: https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/108036-the-folly-of-pleasing-all?limitstart=0&start=10#161718

Worth a re-read once a year.

This is the bull shit I'm talking about. Do you know what this says? "Yeah, we can't please everyone, so we're not going to take your feelings into consideration. We're just not going to try. Deal with it. "

This isn't about pleasing everyone. Shit, I don't expect to be catered to. I'm not asking for that. I'm asking for my thoughts to matter. To be taken under consideration. That's all.