Humility, Ego and the Force

Do you feel that thinking very highly of one's own opinion is negative to one's ability to flow with the wider Force?

I ask because some Jedi seem to feel themselves as exemplary or somehow "above" the rest of the community, people who's default response is "check out MY way of doing things!" whether they have something of merit to offer or not. People who see other's opinions as a threat to their own, rather than an opportunity to learn, and therefore, to grow.

Is such concrete confidence in one's own position a positive or a negative thing, when it comes to appreciating one's place in the wider system of things?

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I come from a culture which, by and large, promotes humility and one's "smallness", and for me I feel that's a tremendous positive when looking at myself as part of the wider whole. I may disagree in part, or excel in some ways, but all I am is simply human, simply a part of the wider Force. I can let my selfish, egoistic perceptions go (or at least learn to do so), and find compromise, mediation and the middle ground. For me, that "travel" is always growth, and for me that endless capacity for growth is a quality of all great Jedi - they are humble and thus happy to either ride or to duck under waves, when waves appear. To learn new ways when the old ones won't serve.

But again, in this I'm prepared to see it from another side.

The issue I take with such a view is that it tries to treat all opinion as if it has merit or value and is worthy of respect. This is not true. A person who believes that the world is ruled by sentient cabbages should not be take seriously. Nor should the opinions of a hate monger or racist hold any merit.
Some opinions are based on falsehood or screwed up perceptions and most assuredly should be challenged. Others are just vapid and basically of no use. I mean one persons thoughts on say Mint Chocolate Chip ice-cream really should not matter to me as they might hate it while I love it. In short while such an opinion for that person might be valid for me its of no use as my taste differs and they will not suddenly enlighten me to how awful my favorite ice-cream really is.
Should we try to humble ourselves and look at outside perspectives? Oh most definitely. However that doesn't mean that we should not see that some ideas are worth more then others.

MadHatter wrote: A person who believes that the world is ruled by sentient cabbages should not be take seriously. Nor should the opinions of a hate monger or racist hold any merit.

Why?

What does treating a racist with a lack of respect actually accomplish, for instance?

Why can't these "autre" perspectives lead to mutual recognition, respect and growth?

And the big one... what makes you so sure you're right, and they're wrong?

tzb wrote:

MadHatter wrote: A person who believes that the world is ruled by sentient cabbages should not be take seriously. Nor should the opinions of a hate monger or racist hold any merit.

Why?

What does treating a racist with a lack of respect actually accomplish, for instance?

Why can't these "autre" perspectives lead to mutual recognition, respect and growth?

And the big one... what makes you so sure you're right, and they're wrong?

First of all I think you mean civility not respect. Respect is something you earn. Secondly I am not sure how you could think that a racist that believes in the violent oppression of all other races should be greeted with welcome. I mean should the Jewish people have been open to Hitlers concepts that they should all die? Some things are just wrong and worthy of standing against. Or would you show support and kindness for someone that wanted to enforce religious law world wide and destroy the Jedi faith?
What makes me sure I am right? I believe in the Jedi code and that means NOT dealing in discrimination and harm of others. That means I must think that those who wish to oppress others are wrong. Otherwise are we saying there is no morality or reality of any kind?

Where does the Jedi Code speak of treating others without respect?

My point is there are many, many racists in the world (for instance). Do you honestly believe ignoring or treating them with zero respect is actually going to improve anything?

I don't hold with racist ideologies, but I do believe it's more important to understand where they come from and the kinds of tensions and fears they represent than to simply deny them. I know a few reformed racists. None got where they are from being "cast out" - you don't get to a respectful society by treating people's thoughts and opinions with disdain.

MadHatter wrote: What makes me sure I am right? I believe in the Jedi code and that means NOT dealing in discrimination and harm of others.

Agreed. Some others are racists, hate-mongers, and cabbage-believers (perhaps?). Don't discriminate against or harm them

For me, that's the very essence of what "respect" means.

MadHatter wrote: Respect is something you earn.

Perhaps. For me the only criteria for deserving respect is existence.

I believe that there's a difference between being comfortable or even confident in your opinion, and prizing it.

If you prize it you associate it with your sense of self-worth (Ego) and then it becomes harder to consider other points of view because they threaten that self-worth.

If you can be comfortable with your opinion without attaching huge importance to it, it becomes much easier to keep an open-mind because finding information that contradicts it doesn't devalue you in any way.

I think it's a good sign when people question their own confidence in their opinion - as in, when they ask "Should I be this confident? Have I crossed the line into arrogance or closed-mindedness?" (which seem to me to be the sorts of questions that only an open-minded person could ask in a genuine sense and properly reflect on) - but equally, we shouldn't be scared to have opinions. We don't have to all consign ourselves to eternal fence-sitting in an attempt to stave off the Ego, so long as we don't let our particular opinions become so much a part of our identity that we couldn't allow ourselves to ever entertain the notion of letting them change or evolve.

I suppose then that yes, in a sense, I do think that highly prized opinions are probably detrimental to flowing with the Force, because my personal understanding of the Force is based in the illusion of the Ego etc etc, but closed-mindedness (one possible consequence of pride) is an Ego-trick (I am right therefore you are wrong), thus encourages us to perceive the world through a model of separation rather than the interconnected whole - the Force. Rather than experiencing ourselves as 'one' with the world around us we experience ourselves as 'other'. Certainly that is my personal experience of the moments when I have been a little overconfident in my own opinion.

Great topic...I'm looking forward to reading everyone else's thoughts.

tzb wrote: Where does the Jedi Code speak of treating others without respect?

My point is there are many, many racists in the world (for instance). Do you honestly believe ignoring or treating them with zero respect is actually going to improve anything?

I don't hold with racist ideologies, but I do believe it's more important to understand where they come from and the kinds of tensions and fears they represent than to simply deny them. I know a few reformed racists. None got where they are from being "cast out" - you don't get to a respectful society by treating people's thoughts and opinions with disdain.

MadHatter wrote: What makes me sure I am right? I believe in the Jedi code and that means NOT dealing in discrimination and harm of others.

Agreed. Some others are racists. Don't discriminate against or harm them

There is a difference between being CIVIL towards someone and respecting them. Respect is admiration or reverence usually based on achievement or some admired quality. Civility is basic courtesy. I am all for being civil. That does not mean I am going to agree with or even lend merit to someone that screams for the oppression or harm of others. In fact I am going to loudly and passionately stand against such a thing. I mean one does not change wrong doing by acting as if it has merit. For example if someone tried to say all Jedi are insane do you respond with agreement or explain why they are incorrect?

Yes yes one can try to get to the REASON behind the statement but some times people are illogical and hateful beings. There are many who believe if you do not believe my faith you must suffer. Asking why or trying to reason with them will get you no where. So in this case yes you must stand firm against them. Sometimes keeping the peace means diplomicy and other times forceful opposition. Of course the first one should always be what we reach for to start with but we cannot negate the second option. If for example someone tried to call you an evil bigoted person I would state this as a lie and offer up this discussion as proof. I would not give credit to their lie in the name of being humble.

A lack of confidence in your own opinion is just as dangerous. Instead of being your own person, you are the image of yourself that everyone else thinks you should be. Your self esteem takes such a bad hit that you are in danger of becoming useless to yourself and others.

Opinions (not to be confused with facts) are like clothing. Some fit me better than others. Some colors, fabric, and styles work with my coloring and body type better than others. But that doesn't mean that my outfit is suitable for somebody else. Everyone is different. My opinions or beliefs are tried and tested, or are under testing, and they work for me. Sometimes (lots of times) I find they no longer work and need to adjust them (which takes time sometimes)

The only time I can think of that I'll say "check out MY way of doing things!" is when I'm offering advice. If I have experience or understanding in an area beyond my own opinions, I'll offer those too. "I do it this way, but here's what's worked for others!" It won't hurt my feelings a bit if it didn't help you or if you don't want to even try it (well maybe a little bit ). Maybe red just isn't your color.

There's a balance that needs to be achieved I think. I understand that my beliefs are my own and I've spent a long time working on most of them. And although they are always subject to scrutiny and possibly change, I am confident in them. But that doesn't mean I think they should be law. Nor do I think that other beliefs are any less valuable (provided they aren't hurting anybody).

After all, a world where everyone wore the same thing would be rather boring. I get enough of that at work

Wonder what the realms of subjectivity might be... ...perhaps direct experience (lived involvement), reasoning (creation from analysis), and reference (direct from other source)?

I was going to also say belief but I think that is at a different level and represents a type of subjective view which could have mixes of those 3.

I've never studied language, and I didn't pay much attention in grammar, but I think it would be fair to assume it could/does already incorporate practises to identify the different natures enough to differentiate between where appropriate (for oneself) allocation of 'ego' to concepts might best lie. Don't ask me though, I just try to be accurate but try to let curiosity drive, rather then ego... but I'm not sure how that reads to others!!

But when faced with disagreement direct experience is pretty secure so long as its understood as only ones own point of view of the experience. Reasoning might be the most open to both personal investment (a creation) and vulnerability (error). Reference is secure also, so long as its accurate. It would become vulnerable when incorporated into reasoning I guess, but so would personal experience - so if all things are being fair and productive, its the reasoning performance perhaps which we might cling onto with ego beyond where it might be appropriate to do so.

This could mean it can be observed where people might be vulnerable to manipulation due to that investment in their reasoning, which could open pathways to counter-productive interaction when someone tries to rattle the opposition in an argument - which is an unhelpful distraction. The main problem though is it can drive bias. The degree lesson called "Thinking about Thinking" uses a reference paper which discusses how beliefs and experiences can shape how we interpret information and value things... and by extension could be said to impede the flow of the Force, IMO.

I like to consider them as 'views' which are only correct in regard to the factors which orientate the view to begin with. The extent of the view then is also shaped by its capacity to penetrate relevance with accuracy.

I believe the goal in life is not to teach others but to teach oneself. If you look at every opportunity to debate as a way to procreate your ideas and ideals, you are no Jedi.

It is easy to read a few lessons, answer them according to what you think people want to hear, just to get a title. It is the person who listens and takes into account all perspectives from all people, then formulates a personal doctrine in which they alone are required to follow, that can be truly called a Jedi. You can share your thoughts on your beliefs, but they are not gospel and no one is required to follow them.

The code, maxims, creed, and other general doctrine must be at the core of this personal doctrine, but the path you fiollow must be true to the Jedi way in concert with your personal beliefs.

Your ego itself is not inharently bad, it is the way in which a person presents their opinions that alters another person's view of them. Debate is good for personal growth as long as it is done with an open mind and a thirsty for knowledge.