Give or Take?

Something came out of my meditation last evening. I saw this question fleet across my consciousness and in letting it go rued the fact that by the end of my meditation I would have forgotten the question!

True enough, I had to sit a further 10 or so minutes after the meditation was over, trying to resurrect the memory of the question.

The question that eventually came back to me was in essence, “Does the universe give what you need, or - in this life - do you have take what you have?"

"Crazy as it sounds, I'm a believer in destiny and serendipity, and I have had cosmic experiences all my life. Something told me I was meant for greater stuff. And look, I've had a baby! And I've written an opera!" - Rufus Wainright

vs.

"In reality, serendipity accounts for one percent of the blessings we receive in life, work and love. The other 99 percent is due to our efforts." - Peter McWilliams

As a youth, I grew up in a home which was unambiguously - but not overbearingly - Presbyterian (Christian). My parents, daily, practiced their faith via their chosen careers but we were never made to participate - against our will - in their religious celebrations. Due to where we often lived, weekly church services were not always available, so this weekly event was not an onerous obligation.

Around age 19, when I was ready to leave the church, I discovered during my "exit-interview" with the Asst. Pastor at our church, that Presbyterians have as a core doctrine pre-destination (I’d never picked up on that)!

So I realized later that it is somewhat un-surprising that I find deeply rooted in my personality a tendency towards serendipitous thinking.

I have always had a sense, that just beyond my field of senses, the “universe” was providing what I needed. Much along the aphorism “when the student is ready the master will appear.”, but even more generalized.

This is in stark contrast with the “wolf of wall street” mentality (I haven’t seen the movie either, convenient label) of what I perceive I should understand and which I presume to flow from the cold-hard-facts of the theories of Science.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean I sit around the house waiting for "mana to fall from heaven"… I always had a part time job starting at age 14 and have been at the same company now for 20 years. I just can't shake the feeling that it wasn't all my own doing...

So, am I wrong and deluded? Am I trying to ignore my internal “Taker” and assuage guilt for my comfortable life by presuming serendipity gave it to me as opposed to I carved it out of the Universe’s hide…?

Does the distinction really matter?

Personally, I don't believe in predestination...

Sometimes stuff works out good for us, sometimes it doesn't, but mostly if we want it, we work for it.

Humans are, as a society, 'takers' in the sense that we are not in balance with the natural world.. we deprive areas of resources and then move on.
Individually though, we're taking life as it comes, no give or take, just living.

I believe in an odd balance of the two. I truly do believe that sometimes things happen for a reason, that things happen that we didn't intend and that those things provide what (the Force/God/the Universe/whatever you chose to think) wants for us. I also believe that we have the free will to chose to take the path chosen for us or to take a different one.

I have a story as to why I believe this but it is rather long so I will not bore you all with it here. I'd be more than happy to share it via pm if some one wishes to hear it. The gist of it, though, is that on a road trip with my family we got into an accident. In that accident a lot of our stuff was damaged. The weekend prior my dad and I had been talking about stuff we wanted to get rid of in a hypothetical future, which included three of our four dogs. All of the things on our list were damaged and the three dogs we said that we'd get rid of escaped our vehicle and ran away. I think this was (again, insert your version of fate here) telling us that we needed to do what we'd said and that it didn't think that we would do it on our own. But we fought back a little. Instead of leaving three of our dogs lost several hours from home we stayed there for a week looking for them. We eventually found all of them.

Edan wrote: Personally, I don't believe in predestination...
Humans are, as a society, 'takers' in the sense that we are not in balance with the natural world.. we deprive areas of resources and then move on.
Individually though, we're taking life as it comes, no give or take, just living.

Just to clarify humans are not takers. Its our taker CULTURE that makes us takers. There are humans that live a LEAVER life style, but that doesn't mean they dont consume things. They take what they need and leave the rest.

As for the humans in the TAKER culture...well I doubt any one here deliberate wants to deprive any place of resources. Though we all do our part to deprive this planet of living space and resources. This is because we believe that we dont have any other choice or we just dont know what to do.

But to address the topic directly. We are part of this world. There is nothing in our bodies that did not come from earth. Our bodies are borrowed and when we die we must return what was given. Outside of our culture its not a give and take but rather a give and give.

I don't think one could go through life without sometimes receiving and sometimes taking.

I'm a Determinist, that is, a fatalist, a believer in destiny in a particular sense - that we are not "free" in our choices. However it's a common misconception that such a belief means one can simply sit back and enjoy the ride, and get the fruits of the cosmos just the same - just because I was destined to become a Jedi Knight, doesn't mean I didn't have to lift a finger to achieve it. A Determinist believes that whilst it was always my destiny to become a Knight (because I did become one), as I had no prior access to that knowledge I had to behave exactly as I did to get to it. Further, without working for it as I did, I wouldn't have become a Knight. It was my destiny to become a Knight, but also my destiny to do the work it took to get there!

In other words, the existence of destiny does not preclude the necessity of choice, or of action (taking); it's just that if we knew enough about the individual, their mental state, their entire history and the state of the universe at the moment of their decision - something no human could ever achieve - we could weigh up the balance of factors in their decision and predict, with accuracy, their choice/action before they made it. What will be follows logically (causally) from what is, in the same way that what is followed logically (causally) from what was.

Taoism teaches that striving is usually fruitless, and that wu wei is a better approach - this is mirrored in the Swedish term "lagom", meaning "just enough". One acts at the opportune moment, does only what is required, doesn't fret about it and the desired result is achieved with minimal stress or drama. I believe this relates to this discussion in the sense if you can sit still and let something fall into your lap, it's wise to do so! And if not, take the most appropriate action rather than exerting a huge amount of energy to achieve little.

We achieve this wisdom of knowing when and how to act by gathering knowledge and applying focus. There's some good discussion of this kind of thing in The Art of War, available in the Library .

I don't see a difference between the two.

You give when you take.

Things are taken when you are given.

Materially equivalent? Perhaps not. But we trade our spirit for material wealth all the time. Why not the opposite? Who says we are aware of everything we give away? Of everything we take?

I too am no fan of pre-destination. While I might not be able to cogently defend my position, I don't like the flavour, smacks of licorice, yuk... :laugh:

The question of whether the Universe provides or you take from it, might also be a destiny-mess... Not sure yet if that distinction matters, is definable or ?

Does Intent matter?

What part does chance play in the question? If I sit around long enough and by chance a loaf falls from the sky, that will reinforce my waiting for another...

The question that eventually came back to me was in essence, “Does the universe give what you need, or - in this life - do you have to take what you have?"

This, among most things, is not an either/or situation. It is both/and

Streen wrote:

The question that eventually came back to me was in essence, “Does the universe give what you need, or - in this life - do you have to take what you have?"

This, among most things, is not an either/or situation. It is both/and

Yes, I believe you've zero'd in on my question.... I can only relate it back to the Buddha's insistence that Intent matters.

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him, as the wheel follows the foot of the ox that draws the carriage.

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him."

So, in this case, does it matter if I believe that I've carved out my lot in life from the bleeding hide of the Universe, or that I've been graciously handed life on a platter by a benevolent Universe?