Where is the line between freedom of speech...

As opposed to a discourteous member?

So, does membership allow more rights to be a douche?

If an individual cannot follow the few rules/requests, then are they really a member?

Did they join for malicious intent, which therefore removes the rights of a member and reasons for membership?

Khaos wrote:

This is a religious temple and training institution. If your presence is not to participate in our religion, or to train with us, you are a guest. If you are a discourteous guest, you will be shown the door.

As opposed to a discourteous member?

So, does membership allow more rights to be a douche?

As for participation, well, what do you mean by that? Would not any form of interaction within the halls and subject matter fall under that?

Given that the line for banning is also subjective, and always shifting, well that is a slippery slope is it not?

Training? Well, again, whats that entail exactly, given the subjective refuge you have here you do not clarify anything with these statements, more you hang yourselves with previous ones.

That’s exactly right. :ohmy:

If you’re one of us you can be as rude and nasty as you honestly believe a Jedi at this temple should be.

And if you fall out of line with how ‘we’ feel a Jedi should act we will talk to you about it. And I have sent PM’s to people on several occasions.

Khaos, you are a very intelligent individual. I’m sure you know what the training is and what was meant by his statements.

And yes, it always is a slippery slope when you have rules that are subject to interpretation. And that is why we discuss things and try to come to the best solution rather than act out of an emotional response to something. :blink: :whistle:

Khaos wrote:

If you come here and say a lot of things that others disagree with in a way we are not happy with, we have the right to ignore (and block) you if we decide to.

Certainly you have the right, but that does not make it right.

It seems that the line between saying alot of things you disagree with tends to overlap to much in the way you are not happy with, by extension meaning that most anything said that others disagree with(the majority) is the way you are not happy with.

Actually Khaos, you're right. But the reason for my clash with Hannigan isn't about "what" he said and I'm certainly not offended by what hes said. If I got offended by everyone who disagreed with me or said something I don't like...well Id have little time for anything else.

My conversations with him stem from the fact that he has, over the space of the few years that Ive been around to see them, continuously made assertions about anyone who does not follow his way of doing things, as through they were fact. In my opinion, broad discriminatory statements that he can could provide no reasoning or evidence for.

And yes, he doesn't "need" evidence in order to believe whatever he wants, but, when ever asked about those statements he resorts to deflection, personal attacks or just plain ignoring them. Which leads me to believe that those statements are made purely for the sake of fueling his own drama and self promotion.

Freedom of speech, yes. he can believe and say what he likes. But, as we know, if we open our mouths, we can expect to be challenged. And here at least, we expect to be able to do that without resorting to that kind of nonsense.

If anyone is concerned about my actions, I would hope that you would either contact me to discuss it, or notify council about your concerns and they can take appropriate action if needed.

tzb wrote: This is a religious temple...

See, this is the premise I don't buy. A religious temple has walls and doors. What is said inside is said between the members and for the members. It doesn't invite guests and it certainly doesn't give them a platform to voice an opinion. In fact, it only allows that to a few select members. In TOTJO, even sermons can be submitted by anyone. That's not what any other temple would do. A religious temple may not shut and lock its doors, but it isn't in a public space where everyone can read it and anyone can contribute just as they step in.

When I say a public forum, I don't merely mean a publicly accessible website with scripts to enable free information exchange between the members. I mean it also analogous to an actual public forum. A market place, a public square, out in the open for anyone to come in and out and sell whatever they wish so long as they don't go neither after the visitors nor other booth owners. In that analogy to silence someone is equivalent to pretty much demolishing someone else's booth. The fact that you may be renting the square for that forum every week and allow everyone to have their booths here and to sell their products from them does technically give you just about all the power over the place. But we will go and find someplace else if you start feeling entitled to damage our booths and your investment to rent the place will become meaningless.

If you want a religious temple, build up some walls and close the doors and delete all but one booth and rebuild that booth to instead be a pulpit for a select elite few to preach from. Until that time this place belongs to the users and we wear what we wish on our feet bearing all the responsibilities and consequences that come with it and only in the moment we stomp on someone else's it will be your time to intervene as a police guard - a server, not a landlord.

Disclaimer: I'm not adressing the actual TOTJO administration, nor do I speak on behalf of the rest of its member pool. I'm speaking as a hypothetical "us" and adressing a hypothetical "you", illustrating the kind of relationship I find healthy and desirable, independant of how close to it TOTJO actually is or strives to become.

Gisteron wrote:

tzb wrote: This is a religious temple...

See, this is the premise I don't buy. A religious temple has walls and doors. What is said inside is said between the members and for the members. It doesn't invite guests and it certainly doesn't give them a platform to voice an opinion. In fact, it only allows that to a few select members. In TOTJO, even sermons can be submitted by anyone. That's not what any other temple would do.

Having been a guest at many religious temples, having spoken at two as an outsider and having attended a variety of whole community events at others including services delivered by guest speakers from other faiths, I can assure you that whilst that may be true of some kinds of temples, it is not necessarily (or in my experience commonly) the case.

If nothing else religions aim to grow. Why would they stop courteous guests from visiting?

Hmmm....

I see a good point in there, Gisteron...

Do we have a members only section were such can go to discuss things?

I am also confused as to what religion is practiced here given that you can essentially believe as you please.

Even the doctrine has been said not to be doctrine.

So then, there is the claim of religion, but with nothing that exhibits a religion. Other than the ranks...

I too have been a guest in various temples, and though i was allowed in, there was indeed quite a difference between being a guest and a member.

Perhaps our Temple is like all living things in that we are young and open and do not have the experience to lay down lessons learned and laws to abide.

Also, I despise elitism and unreasonably avoid exclusionary activities.

Khaos wrote: I am also confused as to what religion is practiced here given that you can essentially believe as you please.

Even the doctrine has been said not to be doctrine.

So then, there is the claim of religion, but with nothing that exhibits a religion. Other than the ranks...

I too have been a guest in various temples, and though i was allowed in, there was indeed quite a difference between being a guest and a member.

Services, sermons, marriage licenses, personal member consulting/consoling, symbols, a creed, a code, a source of myth (one of countless), learning material/continuous discussions and contemplations concerning personal belief about life and the source of the universe.... I could go on.

The religion is synchronous, and the temple one of open doors and discussion. Rules and freedoms exist here that correspond to both its subject and its predicate.

Proteus wrote: the temple one of open doors and discussion

That said, there are currently 35 forums/subforums I believe Guests can access. As a Knight and Minister I can access 70. There are more besides.

To suggest that this Temple is not a Temple partly because it is open is factually incorrect, however one cuts it.