Ukraine vs. Russia... vs. the world

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Original Article with Videos

This post has forced me to break my resolution not to post in the forums.

I'm not accusing the original poster or anybody here of trusting the media, but I must admonish everybody reading this that one should never do so.

I have been planning on moving to Ukraine for nearly two years now (with Russia and Belarus being close second and third, respectively). I won't burden everybody with my reasoning, but mostly, I just hate and oppose the EU and my native USA, and I chose Ukraine as my new destination. Since then, I've been studying the Ukrainian language, learning more about the country, and making Ukrainian friends.

It seems like I will be moving this year. I won't make it to Ukraine, because the jobs are elsewhere, but I will be working elsewhere in the former USSR (keeping location private), but will at least be able to escape the USA, and will be able to visit Ukraine.

Now, having established that I am familiar with Ukraine, let me say this: what happened in Kiev does not not represent the opinion of the majority of Ukrainians. There are pictures being spread online of Ukrainians in Crimea waving Russian flags and cheering as the Russian army is passing through. The pro- EU (or rather, "pro-Europe", as irritating and inaccurate as that term is) Ukrainians represent a minority opinion in the West. Most Ukrainians identify more with Russia.

Russia is Ukraine's closest ally. Russia is sending its military there to keep the situation stable. A minority of extremists have attempted to overthrow the legitimate government of Ukraine, and Russia is there to keep the peace. Compare that to the USA, who has a tendency to side with extremist minorities to cause chaos and overthrow governments

I would rather be under one small dictator, like Lukashenko (or arguably Putin) than have my country ruled by the EU, NATO, UN, or USA under the guise of "democracy."

The reason Putin gives does not stack up. I'm still waiting to see what the 'violence' in Crimea was against the Russian's there that needed Russia to send in so many units sent to Crimea? Or in fact any unrest there at all?

All the action was at Kiev and it was going both ways!!! I guess by Russia's logic that gives permission for the EU to send forces into Ukraine as well.... the world would be a mess if everyone acted under that type of justification.

The only violence I've seen in Crimea is the pro-Russian supporters taking over all the facilities as Russia moved in, and subsequent reactions and counter-reactions as a result.

The reality is the pro-EU leadership a dozen or so years ago was not going to renew the lease for the Russian's to use Crimea for its main Black Sea Fleet base at Sevastopol (on Crimea within Ukraine). Then a new pro-Russian leader got in in 2010, and signed up to an extended lease for it with Moscow. When popular opinion turned pro-EU again recently (and he fled back to Russia) I just think Putin got worried and saw his last opportunity to keep it, and he moved on in and took it.

If the people wanted to move closer to the EU then it was inevitable they might very well end that lease at some point in the future. The only thing this has to do with Kiev is that it represented a weakness in its capacity to stop Russia from making this move. We could argue what the people of Ukraine support, but that would be pointless as its mixed. When the pro-Russian President got voted in during 2010, the split was 48.95% v 45.47%, which is pretty darn close. Prior to that in 2004 the pro-EU President got voted in with a split of 51.99% v a pro-Russian candidate getting 44.20%. So its a bit rich to say most Ukraine's support Russia - it fluctuates. Crimea though has hosted Russian military families for generations due to its major naval presence there, and is a holiday destination for Russian's too apparently, so they have a slight majority in that part of the country, and perhaps up along the borders regions with Russia - but not all of Ukraine. I think most of the Ukraine has grown out of the 20th century Cold War mentality.

Forced you?

Adder wrote: The reason Putin gives does not stack up. I'm still waiting to see what the 'violence' in Crimea was against the Russian's there that needed Russia to send in so many units sent to Crimea? Or in fact any unrest there at all?

All the action was at Kiev and it was going both ways!!! I guess by Russia's logic that gives permission for the EU to send forces into Ukraine as well.... the world would be a mess if everyone acted under that type of justification.

The only violence I've seen in Crimea is the pro-Russian supporters taking over all the facilities as Russia moved in, and subsequent reactions and counter-reactions as a result.

The reality is the pro-EU leadership a dozen or so years ago was not going to renew the lease for the Russian's to use Crimea for its main Black Sea Fleet base at Sevastopol (on Crimea within Ukraine). Then a new pro-Russian leader got in in 2010, and signed up to an extended lease for it with Moscow. When popular opinion turned pro-EU again recently (and he fled back to Russia) I just think Putin got worried and saw his last opportunity to keep it, and he moved on in and took it.

If the people wanted to move closer to the EU then it was inevitable they might very well end that lease at some point in the future. The only thing this has to do with Kiev is that it represented a weakness in its capacity to stop Russia from making this move. We could argue what the people of Ukraine support, but that would be pointless as its mixed. When the pro-Russian President got voted in during 2010, the split was 48.95% v 45.47%, which is pretty darn close. Prior to that in 2004 the pro-EU President got voted in with a split of 51.99% v a pro-Russian candidate getting 44.20%. So its a bit rich to say most Ukraine's support Russia - it fluctuates. Crimea though has hosted Russian military families for generations due to its major naval presence there, and is a holiday destination for Russian's too apparently, so they have a slight majority in that part of the country, and perhaps up along the borders regions with Russia - but not all of Ukraine. I think most of the Ukraine has grown out of the 20th century Cold War mentality.

The EU would have no justification to take action, because Ukraine has no ties nor treaties with it, or any sort of political bonds nor connections. Neither is Ukraine in the UN, NATO, or any of those garbage organizations. Ukraine does have close relations and agreements with Russia. The Kiev protests did not represent the popular Ukrainian opinion, but that of an extreme minority. The average Ukrainian speaks Russian as their first language, and is generally pro-Russian, to some extent or another. The pissed off minority consists of the extreme nationalists, or, conversely, people who want to be more "Western" and "European."

As for a Cold War mentality, it's not Ukraine nor Russia that has it, but the USA and the West in general. At the end of the USSR, the Russian Federation assumed all the political responsibilities of the USSR, and, besides that, to most Americans, "Soviet" and "Russian" mean the same thing.

Like I said, Russia steps in to prevent mob rule in Ukraine and the West calls it an invasion. America overthrows the government of any given country, it's called "building democracy." Seriously, don't buy into the Western media when it comes to Russia.

Star Forge wrote: The EU would have no justification to take action, because Ukraine has no ties nor treaties with it, or any sort of political bonds nor connections. Neither is Ukraine in the UN, NATO, or any of those garbage organizations. Ukraine does have close relations and agreements with Russia.

Huh? I read the Russian action was a violation of the agreements between Russia and Ukraine. Are you sure your not buying into the Russian propaganda? Ukraine was about to join NATO when the pro-Russian political party won power in 2010. Ukraine has lots of connections to Europe and the US. Russia was spitting chips at that prospect... so I can only imagine what lengths they went to, to win that election!!! Now 4 years later people have had to relearn the Russian's perhaps do not seem to make good 'masters', at least under Putin, even if they share so much blood together.

Not to mention the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances which was signed by the US, UK, Russia, France and China about protecting the Ukraine, basically saying;

1. Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
4. Seek United Nations Security Council action if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine.
5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.

Star Forge wrote: The Kiev protests did not represent the popular Ukrainian opinion, but that of an extreme minority. The average Ukrainian speaks Russian as their first language, and is generally pro-Russian, to some extent or another.

I already quoted the election results for the last 2 elections between a pro-EU party and a pro-RU party. It's not like you state at all. Yes they speak Russian, it used to be part of the USSR but they split from Russia for a good reason. It's been borderline ever since. If it was such a minority - why did the pro-Russian President run away so fast and why weren't the Police and military able to handle this minority. I can answer that, its because it was not a minority, it was a majority. It's a majority because the Ukranian majority now seem to view the Russian government as motivated by self interest, and its puppet President as corrupt and stealing from the nation for personal wealth.

The problem in the Ukraine is the minority Russian nationalism and willingness to engage in violence. It is difficult for a civilian population to overthrow a corrupt government like what just happened, and is only possible if the military and police actually support it - which they ended up doing. The problem is Russia and its supporters fighting on against the non-radical Russian nationalists. From what I've seen from here, normal Ukrainians just want to be left alone to be Ukrainian. This is reinforced by the only Ukrainian I know... he has always fiercely identified as Ukrainian and took it as an insult to be called Russian. This minority Russian nationalism is at its greatest in the Crimea because there is a lot of current and ex-Russian military there.

Star Forge wrote: As for a Cold War mentality, it's not Ukraine nor Russia that has it, but the USA and the West in general. At the end of the USSR, the Russian Federation assumed all the political responsibilities of the USSR, and, besides that, to most Americans, "Soviet" and "Russian" mean the same thing.

Unfortunately the troops on the ground have not stopped violence and unrest, they just ensured that its the pro-Russian protesters that are able to conduct operations. This is textbook Cold War strategy to achieve control.... that's why its called 'Cold' war.

Star Forge wrote: Like I said, Russia steps in to prevent mob rule in Ukraine and the West calls it an invasion. America overthrows the government of any given country, it's called "building democracy." Seriously, don't buy into the Western media when it comes to Russia.

Russia is only in the Crimea, so it's not concerned about the Ukraine as you put it. Its future actions will determine whether its a defensive precaution as they claim, or annexation of territory.

I'd agree with you if they also stopped the pro-Russian protestors - but they dont, and considering the overkill of the military movements.... and seemingly thorough preparation and planning of militia's, its not a new tactic and I'd bet the people in the know are not amused to put it lightly.

Brenna wrote: Forced you?

Yes Brenna. We "forced him". We all need to understand that Star Forge is the real victim here.

Prior to that in 2004 the pro-EU President got voted in with a split of 51.99% v a pro-Russian candidate getting 44.20%. So its a bit rich to say most Ukraine's support Russia - it fluctuates.

Especially since when he was elected,. he was supposed to go ahead with the EU partnership. that would explain why the parliament booted him off.

The fact is they want to deal with the EU because every former USSR country that has done so have grown richer from it. All of them are much smaller than the ukraine and have a higher gdp per capita. Romania makes the same kind of money as they do (gdp), but with less than half the land, and less than half the population.

Even though the US policy is to support countries that support Democratic government or any legitimate group wanting to implement a democratic government as their social means of governance (and I’m almost willing to bet most people cannot tell me when or why that policy came into effect) from past examples, the way the world media spins things I only see a few possible outcome.

Thinking of this, I was compelled to go and speak to a few Ukrainians that I know and a couple of Soviets. First off, general consensus is that “it is all a big mess and Russia doesn’t want it because it is a big headache.” “Crimea cannot leave to join Russia because it is illegal to the Ukraine laws. But the leadership in Kiev is illegal, so it is big mess… what can you do?!?” I was then informed of the word Ukraine in the Russian language, the history of the area since the time Russia was in conflict with the Mongolian Empire and how Poland helped and controlled the area known as the Ukraine for a time.

“It is hard to have opinion as they are all my brothers!” One of my trusted friends is Ukrainian and he calls himself Russian. “It is too big for Russia to fix because it is a civil war, one brother fighting one brother. And it hurts me because I have family on both sides. I love them all.” “I don’t know what Moscow will do I just hope it can be solved without much bloodshed.” For all of the Russian/Ukraine people I talked to, Russia is the people and Moscow is the government. Very similar to when refer to the people of the US as Americans and Washington as the Government. But they have a stronger separation from their government it seems.

“Since both parts in Ukraine are illegal, Kiev and the people in Crimea, the best thing for them to do is become a Federation I think.” (Meaning Crimea becoming a Federation) “Because it is just too big a headache for anyone.”

So I asked, “what do you think outside influence should be?” And Igor probably said it best, the way most Americans might understand… “Well, everyone is illegal, we are all brothers, one people, and it is a civil war that is too big to fix easy. If Crimea does one thing then several of the western areas will want to join Russia too. See, for hundreds of years Poland has been cut and recut to make new boundaries. And that part is Ukraine. Ukraine is not a nation, it is in Russian… you know that is a Russian word not a country, it means “end of Russia” it is an area, but we all have same history and culture. But what can anyone do? It is civil war.” “The reason it all started is because after Ukraine became it’s own, several people said no one could speak Russian or go to jail for five years. Why should I go to jail for speaking my language? And they said I can’t read Russian books or TV or anything Russian. That is who I am! That is what Germany did to the Jews… it’s not right.” “So it is big mess.”

There was genuine concern in the face of everyone I spoke with…
I know I am about to date myself, but when I was in the service, a war with the USSR is what we trained for. A part of training to fight a ground war with a people is getting to know and understand those people. Over time I grew a respect for my adversary. They are a strong, kind and passionate people. I may not agree with the government, but who agrees 100% with their own government let alone the government of another?

I believe and trust the people I spoke with. There is a lot more but I figured this is enough to get the general idea out. Armchair politics is fine and I am not condemning anyone at all… I just thought I would find people that could shed light on the other side of the story. Without media bias.

Here is a list of broken treaties:

http://the-libertarian.co.uk/unlawfulness-russian-invasion-ukraine/