Opposites? Juxtaposition? Black and White?

Ve-Lo-Zi wrote:

Jestor wrote: lol, show me this "light and dark" you speak of in nature...

It is only in the judging, that this are one or the other...

Nature, and us, since we are simply an extension of nature, simply, "IS"...

It is in your judgment I am one or the other, ...

I hold no title, , including "light" or "dark", "master" or "student", I simply "AM"...

You too, if you really think about it, but, you probably will deny it...

That's how we know about you...

Many of us (who is it Alethea? Noel Vock?) "Were dark, because we were not yet light"

And I might add, "we were light, because we had not yet "NOW"...

But duality can be seen everywhere in the material, natural world around us: light-darkness, day-night, heat-cold and so on. I agree that what we perceive as being "light" or "dark" is to some extent determined by our perception of reality (meaning our social and moral values, our religious upbringing etc.) but that dualities and opposites exist in this world of matter is in my opinion beyond dispute.

I took just your first paragraph, Ve-Lo-Zi, as I thought it summed up your point..

Your future comments just solidified your position...

Let me explain my point, and perhaps you'll say I'm crazy, (a for real possibility, lol), or, you will go, "Ohhhhh....."...

We shall see...


To address your light-dark, day-night points...

Light-dark are too vague, depending on how you mean them, the examples will vary.....

But, there is only light, and varying shades of light, for we don't really understand the concept of no light, as we can't experience it... Even in the "darkest of dark", there is light... Its why cats, and night vision goggles, can see in the "blackest of black nights".... There is only light....

So, there only being light, lets pull something to compare, and easy to understand....

Numbers...

Light is like numbers...

It goes from a negative infinity, to a positive infinity...

And when you say "day-night" or "light-dark", you are merely picking points on the scale to compare....

If the sun goes down, at 6:30, you say its "night", yet in the timezone to your right, looking at a map, its been "night for an hour", and to your left, it won't be night for an hour....

If its night at 630, how come I can still see without artificial light, that's weird...

Just being silly, don't take me being a jerk or smart-alec...

Don't get me wrong, to have conversations, I obviously agree on day and night to be able to talk with everyone, but, when you get down to it, it is merely perception...

And, I agree on loose definitions of hot and cold, but, lets look at that too....

I'm going to quote wiki, forgive me if someone reading this isn't a fan, lol...

Cold refers to the condition or subjective perception of having low temperature, the opposite of hot.[note 1]

A lower bound to temperature is the absolute zero, defined as 0 K on the Kelvin scale, an absolute thermodynamic temperature scale. This corresponds to −273.15 °C on the Celsius scale, −459.67 °F on the Fahrenheit scale, and 0 °R on the Rankine scale.

Since temperature relates to the thermal energy held by an object or a sample of matter, which is the kinetic energy of the random motion of the particle constituents of matter, an object will have less thermal energy when it is colder and more when it is hotter. If it were possible to cool a system to absolute zero, all motion of the particles in a sample of matter would cease and they would be at complete rest in this classical sense. The object would be described as having zero thermal energy. Microscopically in the description of quantum mechanics, however, matter still has zero-point energy even at absolute zero, because of the uncertainty principle.

Basically, it is saying that cold, is our term for an absence of heat...

Remove the hot cold, and I tell you the number which represents the temperature, and where you might say its "cold", and yet I'm still comfortable.....

Is 35°F cold? Well, not as cold as 0°F, and water isn't ice yet...

+++++++++++
Lol, am I making sense, or crazy?

Lol...

And given our respective natures with regard to temperature, what Maître Jestor considers 'comfortable' is for me quite painfully cold ...

And the 'night-time' example from above : it is like the rainbow illustration. There must be water vapour in the atmosphere, sunlight and an eye to perceive it. We do not all see the same rainbow - we each see our own from our (geographical) point-of-view. A tree falling, a boulder tumbling, an explosion all make vibrations in the air, yet there is no 'noise' lest there be also an ear to perceive ...

So, every duality is based on a particular vantage point. "Everything we do is evil to somebody" after all ...

XLI
When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao. Thus it is said:
The path into the light seems dark,
the path forward seems to go back,
the direct path seems long,
true power seems weak,
true purity seems tarnished,
true steadfastness seems changeable,
true clarity seems obscure,
the greatest are seems unsophisticated,
the greatest love seems indifferent,
the greatest wisdom seems childish. The Tao is nowhere to be found.
Yet it nourishes and completes all things.

I understand what you are getting at Jestor. However, we still perceive night where we are even if it is day at the same time on the other side of the globe. Also, our organism is adapted to live between these opposites. Most people feel the need to be active during the day and sleep during the night. I know someone who has to work nightshifts in a care center regularly and he has told me that it's very hard for him to adapt his organism to stay awake at night because "it just doesn't feel right".

Also, regarding the hot and cold, of course it is a matter of perspective up to a certain extent. Some people might walk around in a fur coat in temperatures that others may still feel are quite moderate. But at the same time there is a definite border: When a certain temperature is reached, EVERY person (unless he has some sort of special protective clothing) will feel "cold", simply because the organism is not created to withstand a certain coldness.

So, while I would agree that the exact definition of what is cold and warm is dependent on individual perspective, I would still maintain my point that these kinds of dualities do exist "objectively" too, regardless of our perception, simply because our organisms are adapted to live in the world as it is.

As for the different shades of light, I would agree with this. As I stated in previous posts, I don't consider darkness as existing on the same level as light. My idea (based however more on Platon than on physics) is that the Absolute is light, and that this light then kind of "splits up" into light and dark when it reaches this material realm. I admit that this is a somewhat old-fashioned view and more philosophical than scientific.

I understand, lol...

What can I tell you?

You are wrong? Lol, I can't say that...

Our organisms are typically diurnal, to allow for variences, there are always exceptions to the rule... lol...

We AGREE to these loose definitions to be able to carry on conversations, but, I agree what "ghosts", "aliens" and even "the force", are, to a point so we can discuss them...

But, when we try to define them too far, then we start to disagree....

Hot/cold...

So, barring conventional conversation, (which is just acceptance of the common language) lets split hairs...

You keep saying "duality"...

In this context, is that like "opposite"?

So, what is the opposite, or duality, of 100°?

Or, the since temperature of sun is 27 million degrees Fahrenheit (15 million Celsius), what is the duality of it?

Since the "coldest" temp to be able to be achieved is −273.15 °C on the Celsius scale, −459.67 °F on the Fahrenheit scale, and 0 °R on the Rankine scale.

Here is a gory fact about the cold, as a man freezes to death the water and glucose in his cells crystalize and spike outward breaking the cells apart. As the inside of the cells spill out they trigger the surrounding nerve cells in the same manner that being set on fire would. For this reason people frozen to death are often found naked as they have torn off their clothing in a blind panic of pain.

My point is while each person may eventual have a point they would call cold that point only exist to that person and if people didn’t exist the point called cold wouldn't exist either.

Vesha wrote: My point is while each person may eventual have a point they would call cold that point only exist to that person and if people didn’t exist the point called cold wouldn't exist either.

And my point about "time" and many other things..

You may blame me for not being spiritual or philosophical enough but I confess to take the part of science:

Little experiment 1:
You will need: 3 bowls of water, one filled up with ice-water, one with lukewarm water and the third with hot water. Now:
→ right hand into ice-water
→ left hand into hot water
→ just wait for one or two minutes and close your eyes
→ put both hands in the lukewarm water bowl

Conclusion of experiment 1:
You 'know' that both your hand are in the same bowl, therefore surrounded by water with the SAME temperature. But your senses will tell you otherwise.
→ left hand: „Wow this is warm!“
→ right hand: „Wow this is cold!“

Little experiment 2:
You will need: 2 rooms, one where you will not find one source of light, the other one enlightened enormously as well as two persons.
→ person 1 into the 'dark' room
→ person 2 into the 'light' one
→ wait till the sun set completely and bring your two persons immediately in a forest

Conclusion of experiment 2:
Both persons will start at the same spot in your forest, therefore they have the same 'amount of light' around them. But:
→ person 1 will find his path without any troubles
→ person 2 will stray around in the forest without 'seeing' where to go


Overall conclusion:
We humans are unfortunately prisoners to our own senses and our spirit. We need a starting point from which to draw conclusions from. This is how we build up the PICTURE of our world around us. But it remains a picture and is not the reality. And this starting point lies – as egocentric as we were build by mother nature – within ourselves.
So everyone having his OWN starting point, we have as many realities (and perhaps sometimes more like in experiment 1) as persons on this earth.