manipulation

I was thinking about manipulation and wondered what others thought about it's use in religion, pacifically the way doctrine and myths are used in many religions to manipulate the followers into a certain viewpoint, down a certain road.
I was concentrating on emotional manipulation, but also in the context of subtle manipulation through peer pressure and the relationship between 'God', the whole 'if you don't do this, something terrible will happen.'
Not saying it's necessarily a bad thing, just curious how others view things.

If I were to limit my answer to a right or wrong response, then I would say it is wrong.

Using anything to manipulate someone to force someone’s will down a particular course is morally wrong. Why you ask? As I would tell my daughter, “Because it is!”
Hahahhahahha

Is it actually wrong? I doubt it. But it is not the way of an informed or enlightened individual. Offering someone the choice after presenting them with something is a far more noble way. No one would want their hand force or cornered so that their options are limited.

There is another thread were Moral objectivism/universalism is being discussed. Which I think this topic could be used to support those arguments. Where manipulation could be justified given your values let the ends be justified by the means; my ethos does not permit that. For me, the ends never justify the means and taking away someone’s choice/freedoms is a type of thievery and looked down upon.

Does that make any sense or am I just rambling? Hahhahahha

I'd perhaps call that coercion, and instead use manipulation to refer to when deception is additionally being used to hide the action of eliciting an effect. So then I'd say manipulation is more easily 'bad', but coercion can be too if its effects are dynamic or complex enough to transition into manipulation. With both it would be good to have the freedom to not participate if one chose, else it would seem 'bad'.

You both seem to view it as wrong when used in certain ways but don't you think we use manipulation every day in certain circumstances to achieve the outcome we desire in situations?
And people can appear to be given a choice, which in reality when using subtle manipulation is no choice at all.
People aren't dumb as a whole and even when given freedom of choice I think where manipulation is concerned, some intelligent people allow themselves to be manipulated.

elizabeth wrote: You both seem to view it as wrong when used in certain ways but don't you think we use manipulation every day in certain circumstances to achieve the outcome we desire in situations?
And people can appear to be given a choice, which in reality when using subtle manipulation is no choice at all.
People aren't dumb as a whole and even when given freedom of choice I think where manipulation is concerned, some intelligent people allow themselves to be manipulated.

Manipulation is not right or wrong. We as individuals manipulate all the time. We often use subtle manipulation to get our partner to do what we want. I don't see anything wrong in that. What I believe is wrong is the intention behind the manipulation. When I use the word wrong, I mean wrong for me. It may not be wrong for another.

What does a certain person have to gain by manipulating me? If I'm OK with that, there is no harm being done. If it goes against my beliefs or code of ethics, I will reject their manipulation or even go as far as not associating myself with that person anymore. The choice is always mine.

Jayden
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Manipulating people is baaad...... m'kay?

Allow me to better explain.

If I were to limit my answer to a right or wrong response, then I would say it is wrong.

Using anything to manipulate someone to force someone’s will down a particular course is morally wrong. Why you ask? As I would tell my daughter, “Because it is!”

You both seem to view it as wrong when used in certain ways but don't you think we use manipulation every day in certain circumstances to achieve the outcome we desire in situations?

If I am limited to moral system based on Duality, then “I” would classify it as wrong. When in reality I see manipulation as being manipulative. That probably doesn’t help at all. Hahhahaha

Things are what they are. And how we choose to perceive the world around us determines whether something will be “good or bad.”

Many things are done with good intentions; many are done for personal gain; things are done out of malice. People usually feel justified in what they are doing and even if they admit that under “normal” circumstances it would be wrong, they are in the clear because of some reason. There seems to be a trend where some level of personal comfort holds more importance than a common value. Meaning, if we can rationalize something to ourselves then that helps us to be comfortable with something that would normally (because of Moral Universalism) be unsavory.

This of course is an over simplified explanation of a far more complex idea… and just my personal opinion.

Jayden wrote

What does a certain person have to gain by manipulating me? If I'm OK with that, there is no harm being done. If it goes against my beliefs or code of ethics, I will reject their manipulation or even go as far as not associating myself with that person anymore. The choice is always mine.

Is the choice always yours though?
Subtle manipulation done through religion's is not always recognised by the person being manipulated, so when does it stop being manipulation and become something you believe in? Something you would say is your belief?

Proteus wrote

Manipulating people is baaad...... m'kay?

In all context's? Or just a moral one?

elizabeth wrote: Jayden wrote

What does a certain person have to gain by manipulating me? If I'm OK with that, there is no harm being done. If it goes against my beliefs or code of ethics, I will reject their manipulation or even go as far as not associating myself with that person anymore. The choice is always mine.

Is the choice always yours though?
Subtle manipulation done through religion's is not always recognised by the person being manipulated, so when does it stop being manipulation and become something you believe in? Something you would say is your belief?

I have a good example for you. A female friend of mine met a psychic guru type and was immediately recognized as a gifted psychic. She joined this religious cult and abandoned her family, friends and loved ones. She had to leave all attachment behind in order to ascend to a promised paradise. We sent her emails and tried to call her many times in order to save her. True story. Nothing we could do could shake her out of it. It took her two years to break up with this guru. It is when she stoped believing in her that she had the strength to leave the cult. It was her own intuition that made her see the light.(her gut feeling)

Later she explained to us that she needed the experience because she needed to feel special. Being recognized as a gifted psychic is exactly what she needed at the time because her parents always neglected her. I'm happy for her and I consider her lucky. She is happier today than I can ever remember. But nothing we could have done would of made her change her mind at the time. She let herself be manipulated because she wasn't strong enough at the time to see through the guru's fake promises. She was working out chilhood issues.

The guru did call her back six months after she had broken up from the cult but had no more effect on my female friend. She will never be manipulated by a guru for the rest of her life. She now believes in herself and has gain tremendous confidence from the experience. Her own inner voice has become her guru.


Jayden
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As far as I'm concerned everything is a form of manipulation. We were cool cloths so people think we are cool. work out so people find us attractive, give to charity then brag about it. As very social species everything we do affects everyone around us. The question is "are you trying to change someone's beliefs and actions at their own determinate to benefit yourself." In that case it would be wrong.