The Law

A lot of people consider a discussion on acting morally or immorally concluded in their favor when their reasoning is "it's wrong because because it is against the law". Have we not established that man and his laws are fallible? Why then is this an acceptable stopping point?

Laws shouldn't (and don't really) have much to do with morality.

Laws are intended to keep the public from having the freedom to do whatever they want. They are intended to keep the sanity of each individual and certainly are in favor of what the majority of the government wishes (for good or bad).

Morality is about understanding the social norms and proper social behaviors within a certain context.

They will certainly overlap. But, there are ways to steal within in the law. Ever heard of banking?

rugadd wrote: A lot of people consider a discussion on acting morally or immorally concluded in their favor when their reasoning is "it's wrong because because it is against the law". Have we not established that man and his laws are fallible? Why then is this an acceptable stopping point?

it is NEVER an acceptable stopping point for me. as a serial dissenter/progressive, there are MANY laws that i strenuously disagree with, for MANY different reasons. a lot of times, i do what is within my meager power as a private citizen (as i am not one of the actual lawmaking moneymen in charge) to try to change that law. i really wish others would as well.

the law is a joke (these days). Anymore, it's just a means of controlling the lower classes of society. There was a time when the "rule of law" meant something... like you know, you could count on a jury of your peers, innocent until proven guilty, human rights prevailed, etc. Nowadays your life is at the whim of a dictator and the law is their greatest asset to enforce their will.

Peace

There are a vast amount of laws, but I feel the ones everybody is refering here are mostly criminal laws. I agree that nowadays the power to create and modify laws is used as a tool of politics, as propaganda.

The problem with that is that the resuting laws are flawed. They are written to fast and passed without due consideration causing injustice. I am thinking for example about the spanish Law for gender violence protection (LO de medidas de protección integral contra la violencia de género). It was created and passed while we had a socialist government with important influence in parliament, that wished to get big headlines by passing this law, and as a consecuence it generated, not only insecurity, because it is very hard to interpret due to it's flawed formulation, but also inequality, for it calls for harder punishment for men than for women even though they commit the same cime with the same circumstances.

Like this one there are a lot of bullshit laws that are turning the legal system into a joke. But alondside with these there are a lot of Laws that are really well constructed and strive towards justice.

And lets face it without laws we would not be able to live with each other in peace, without laws the stronger would prevail and there would be no justice for anybody. The problem is the quality of the laws, and the missuse of the power to create them, that power that is supposed to belong to the people and is beeing used against them, the problem is 80% of people just dont care, if they get to watch the latest bullshit retarded TV show they will be happy and they will gladly fall for some politicians bullshit, and another 10%, those who are outraged are manipulated and used as political tools.

rugadd wrote: A lot of people consider a discussion on acting morally or immorally concluded in their favor when their reasoning is "it's wrong because because it is against the law". Have we not established that man and his laws are fallible? Why then is this an acceptable stopping point?

First off.. Thanks you rugadd this is a very good topic that i hope every one can learn something from it.

Mans laws are fallible. Man's laws unlike the laws that govern our universe are fallible because they are susceptible to change by something as simple as a vote. Not every one can agree but given a handful of choices people will pick one or the other. Even if its just the lesser of 2 evils.

@JORIZQUI

I agree with most of what you said but we would be able to live with out laws. At least "Mans laws". Infact many cultures have lived without laws for more than 3 million years. To a lot of them before you can even explain what laws are you'd first have to explain what crime is because they dont see things in that way. Its very possible to live without laws. I mean even with laws its likely that a cop will turn to a life of crime rather than a criminal taking up a life of justice.

Its really to bad too because man's laws have become really redundant and in some cases pointless. Often times causing more crime than it was set out to stop. Not sure what else to say so i'll stop here and see what the rest of you think.

JORIZQUI... I would be careful about what sort of language you used in our church on our family-friendly forum...

Laws have a lot to do with morality. But there are those that are making some laws and just don't care...

If laws have nothing to do with morality then why are kidnapping, rape, murder and theft all illegal. What about all the moral arguments about gay marriage? I might have different moral arguments to my opponents but it is certainly a moral issue...

Just because some have different views on morality than us doesn't mean that their intentions are any less 'moral' than our own...

Perhaps for some their bar of morality is just set so low that most actions don't even occur to them as being one way or the other...

The only way law making, that is the decision about whether someone has done some good or bad, could not be a moral issue is if every single person in the process suffers from psychopathy - which isn't the case...

Don't mistake stupidity for immorality...

rugadd wrote: A lot of people consider a discussion on acting morally or immorally concluded in their favor when their reasoning is "it's wrong because because it is against the law". Have we not established that man and his laws are fallible? Why then is this an acceptable stopping point?

Because we have to many lawyers.

Daniel L. wrote:
@JORIZQUI

I agree with most of what you said but we would be able to live with out laws. At least "Mans laws". Infact many cultures have lived without laws for more than 3 million years. To a lot of them before you can even explain what laws are you'd first have to explain what crime is because they dont see things in that way. Its very possible to live without laws. I mean even with laws its likely that a cop will turn to a life of crime rather than a criminal taking up a life of justice.

I am sure if they had any kind of interaction with each other they had some kind of law, not necessarily written law, but maybe verbal laws or customs by wich they behaved and functioned like a society. Like the aphorism sais, "ubi homo ibi societas, ubi societas ibi ius" Where there is man, there is society, where there is society there is law. Again, i do not exclusively mean criminal law, civil law for instance regulates a lot of aspects of everidays life, like conflicts between farmers watering their crops, a simple sale or exchange of goods even.

Akkarin wrote: JORIZQUI... I would be careful about what sort of language you used in our church on our family-friendly forum...

I apologize for using language which may be offensive to someone although I do not feel I insulted noone, I used it to characterize my personal view of the quality of certain Laws and TV shows nowadays. Nevertheless if it was inapropriate I apologize. Furthermore I recognize I was angry when I wrote it and did not even think about where I was writing. Path to the Dark Side right there

You are fine Jorizqui,no worries...

As a newly elected law maker in a small municipality, there are tons of law that have nothing to do with criminal activity...

Unless you break them, lol...

Laws are enacted so there are rules of conduct, just like this website has, just like schools have, just like you have in your home...

Follow the ones you agree with, break the ones you disagree with, only be prepared to face the consequences...

I can run every stop sign I see... Until I get caught, or someone gets hurt...

A stop sign is a symbol that we all agree that we will stop at and then the vehicle to the right has the right of way,for the sake of a polite society...

Otherwise, some will take what isnt theirs, and others will give away too much of what is...

They made seatbelts a law, because they have shown to save lives... And, if you dont want to wear yours, then atleast protect your kids... I can remember my in-laws driving around with my kidsin the front seat, standing up... I bitched and complained to my wife, but, until the law went into effect, it didnt get remembered every time...

SO, laws are for

1. polite society
2. safety because we are too dumb to take our own safety into consideration

IN my opinion...