idiocracy and marriage

I just read an article at the telegraph (i'd post the link, but don't know how to with android phone)...the article was about a bishop that's pro gay marriage and compared those against it to slave owners....the writer seemed to be taking a few shots at the bishop...many of those that commented were taking shots at him as well, and there was rampant idiocracy throughout...

Its widely understood and agreed that slavery was bad, and that it was supported by the catholic church at upper levels...yet some of those that commented view it as a good thing (how oppressing anyone can be good is beyond me)...and some seemed to think that slavery was a mutual agreement....um sorry but those that served by choice were not slaves they were called serfs and servants (or indentured servants) and often were released once their debt had been paid, those that were forced to serve against their will were slaves...

Then there were the dimwits towing the biblical line that marriage was for procreation...um sorry again, but we can procreate just fine without it, I'm living proof, as are most of my nieces and nephews, my brother, and sister...besides people were getting married long before jesus entered the world...

And finally there were the rocket scientists that claimed marriage was important to establish a "healthy stable home to raise well balanced children"...um sorry yet again...I know plenty of stable people that were raised in single parent homes and plenty of train wrecks raised in traditional married homes...forcing 2 people to stay together does not always produce healthy stable children...in fact it more often produces the opposite since the children often pay the price...

A healthy, stable, loving home is what produces healthy, stable children, on that I'll agree, however what forms a healthy, stable, loving home is widely varied and depends greatly on the people involved...not on some antiquated concept...

concur on all counts. however, i am biased against marriage as an institution after a scathing, nearly 2 year long divorce process left me utterly shattered some years ago. so take that affirmation with a grain of salt.

I'm married and I've never been happier...but we both had some...erm, "trouble" with previous ... *cough* partners....that taught us what love means beyond the initial phase and how valuable our partner really is. Blanket statements never cover everything.

@ deso, I'm with you on the whole "institution" thing...marriage should never be for any reason other than that 2 people choose to be together..

I doubt I'll ever walk the plank myself, I've seen too many relationships destroyed by marriage...and besides that troglodytes like me seldom draw the attention of women in any manner other than a mere curiosity :laugh:

@ rugadd, too true...there are always unseen variables and unique circumstances that make each situation different...sometimes you have to try on a few different pairs of shoes before finding a pair that fits just right

In the event a marriage ends badly (divorce etc) then both sides should simply exit, there shouldn't be "spousal support"/alimony...if children are involved then yes there should be child support as the children didn't choose to part ways, but why should one adult have to pay another just so they can continue living a lifestyle they've become accustomed to until some other schmuck comes along?if the marriage is over, it's over...

Too bad divorces can't be like thunderdome :evil:

When people start talking about marriage in the Bible it's always a good idea to point out examples of traditional marriages in the Bible. A man and many wives, a man and his wife and his concubines, a man and his brother's widow, a man and his rape victim, etc.

When people say it's religious it's a good idea to point out that the Christian Church did not get at all involved in marriage for over 1000 years because marriage was not about love and commitment. It was a property transfer done for economic benefit.

There have been studies done showing that gay marriages might actually be happier than straight marriages. And there have also been studies showing that, in countries where gay marriages are legal, there have been more straight marriages and fewer divorces since it was legalized.

Also, do you happen to know where the bishop was from?

To be honest I think children are better off being looked after by heterosexual couples.
The fact is, men and women, although we really shouldn't act any differently, remain quite different in the way we approach life. We claim to be equals but we segregate. Women tell other women things they wouldnt tell men, same goes the other way... Even in employment women have the upper hand on the service sector, men, on the secondary/primary. As such a heterosexual couple brings the best of both worlds. that's just something single parents an homosexual couples can't put on the table. But not all parents, homo, hetero or single make very goo parents... That doesn't mean they're not entitled to be a part of their children's lives.

Though as far as I'm concerned, marriage (creation of a family) does not necessarily involve children. Also the argument (i dont know if you've heard this one in the US) that children are entitled to be with their biological parents (They've been bitching about "filiation" in France regarding homo marriage) to be complete and utter non-sense. When I think about my parents, I don't (and do not want to) think about a certain act that eventually led to my life. Your parents are the people who care for you, pay for your music lessons and drive you there, and also every single year overestimate santa's care of how naughty you've been, resulting in more presents than expected

While it's true that men and women tend to approach life differently, I don't think that necessarily means that kids are better off being raised by heterosexual couples. I think that as long as parents are willing to understand that their dynamic will be different depending on their takes on life and such and as long as they are able to care for their children, love them, give them what they need, and generally raise them to be good people, there probably isn't much of a difference between gay couples and straight couples. There are plenty of kids raised by gay couples who turn out just as normal as any kids raised by straight couples. I don't think gender factors in as much as being willing to actually put effort into parenting and making conscious decisions about how to raise your children.

I meant better off in the sense of "something extra", not as a protection against abnormality. Then again I do think the little differences end up becoming major differences/issues.

Here are my observations (based on what it as like for me as a kid, an what I see nowadays). the father has become disposable. We see increased divorce rates, hatred between parents, and often, the father is nothing more than a cash cow who better not "clash" with whatever the mother decides or there'll be consequences. this is a generalization and only based on my own observations, but when I see mothers sending their little girls to the salon for a leg wax, I can't help but think that a father present and in charge would never allow such a thing to happen.
I've also noticed that the children of separated people seem to take sides... because one parent cheated on the other, or one parent doesnt pay child support, etc. In my own situation (married parents), there simply are no sides to take. Sure back when I was a kid one would say "no" and I could try my luck with the other for a "yes", but there simply was no competition over who was making money, paying for holidays, cleaning my clothes, etc.
To go back to my previous example, do you think in a lesbian couple one of the parents would take on the role of "waxing my 10 year old daughter = over my dead body"? Can a lesbian couple understand boy problems? They can't provide any help from experience. they could involve someone else, but that someone else is a stranger, not a parent. The same issue exists with gay couple and girls. How do you (a man) tell your daughter how to put a tampon on? Read the instructions? look on the internet? find a female friend to do it for you? rely on the school nurse?

It's just not the same thing.

I look at our civilization/society, and while aspects of it are improving, overall, I think it's getting worse. And I think the causes are little things like this parenting business. We make changes to a system that's worked really well until now in the name of freedom and equality, but we don't seem to worry about potential long-term issues. We say man and woman are equals, yet we heavily segregate. Through written and social law. Ask people why men and women don't share the same changing rooms. People will tell you because it's normal. Or to feel safe, comfort, etc. No-one asks questions. It was also decided that races were equal. Do we (still) segregate black and white people? If you saw a changing room for whites, and one for blacks, would you expect anyone to say "it's normal, it's to feel safe and comfortable"?

I often hear in the Jedi community that we have to focus on the present... But all I see around me are people who act, with very little wonder or care for the future... An this trend of "living in the now for the now" is probably my greatest worry, in terms of where we are going as a civilization/society. We make changes to the way we live... because it represents something we want (the right to be gay, to divorce, etc). Yet, despite knowing that nothing is ever free, we have made no effort in exchange of those changes. And we act like there isn't going to be any side-effects.

Have there been any studies into the effects of having two gay/lesbian parents and the level of quality parenting given to a child?

You, ren, are suggesting that they would be worse off. I'm just curious if there is any actual evidence to suggest so (one way or the other)...

You have to remember that hetero couples can have children whenever they like but gay and lesbian couples need to make a much more considered decision because they can't simply have a child whenever... That would make one think that they would be better parents because they do so when they want and never 'by accident'...

no-one ever has children by accident.

needless to say, I only offered my opinion based on my observations, and offered examples as to how two same-sex or only one parent would be lacking compared to two opposite-sex parents.

Anyway. I just decided to type "are children better off" in google, which suggested "with heterosexual parents", with most studies being inconclusive due to lack of data. (not to mention the studies that only look at sexual identity stuff: my lesbian aunt has heterosexual children, why would gay parents make gay children if hetero parents make gay children?) some studies find significant disadvantages, some studies are inconclusive or can't tell the difference, one article suggested gay parents are better because they choose to have children, whilst 50% of hetero children are accidental? Allow me to call BS on that.

Besides, to reiterate my point, I don't think having gay or single parents will cause issues, but I do think it's a minor disadvantage, imo potentially a long term problem that should be looked into before it becomes that problem, not a "children of gay parents twice as likely to be murderers" case.

There remains the issue of what the studies look at. populations studied (apparently very lacking from what I see), and things beyond child development psychology. Do the children of gay parents have more or less children than the children of heterosexual parents? Are the jobs they end up getting consistent with children of heterosexual parents? etc. If the children of gay couples are more likely to be builders and the children of lesbian couples are more likely to be teachers, they don't get equal opportunities.