Joseph Campbell is awful

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09 Apr 2018 23:47 #320266 by
Replied by on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
I came here looking for answers. The problem was I did not know the questions. I think that anyone that truly comes here and is honest in their pursuit and is willing to endure the pain of sweeping away fluffy preconceptions and cognitive bias comes to this same conclusion. Asking themselves "what is the question"?

When one can strip all the shit away and lay themselves bare before themselves in ultimate honesty anything Campbell or watts or this temple's doctrine has to say becomes meaningless. Each piece becomes but a sliver in an endless sea of slivers embedded into an infinate haystack. To pick any one of them up and arrogantly declair "This is it!" "This is truth"! Has missed the point of the haystack and that's one of the saddest experiences any human could ever undergo. It makes my spirit weep in sorrow to see people in that state.

But if we don't also pick up each sliver in Campbell and watts and and many others and spend a moment studying them then we have missed the point once again. We will never comprehend the haystack but if we give up trying we are just as lost.

I have come to a place where I'm no longer even sure if there is a question or even if i possess any sort of free will at all. It's up to each of us to take this journey as deep as you want to take it. I feel sorry for those that stop at one sliver and declair this is truth just as much as I feel sorry for those that ignore the sliver and declair there is no wisdom there for me to discover.

So I implore each of you to pick up any sliver presented and study it. It may prick you and it may soothe you, it doesn't matter, what matters is the experience of it. And through that experience we build our own splinter to add to the pile.

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10 Apr 2018 03:04 #320274 by Proteus
Replied by Proteus on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
To read, to listen, to learn, to discover or realize things from a source of information, is it really ever about simply agreeing or disagreeing with it? I think if I blindly agreed with Campbell or Watts just the same as if I were out to simply debunk things with what I believed I know better about, I would have been wasting my own time. To "learn how to learn", as paradoxical as it may sound, I feel is an important ability to develop. Knowing how to interact with any source beyond one's agreements and disagreements, I've always felt is imperative when it concerns philosophy. :)

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10 Apr 2018 10:40 - 10 Apr 2018 10:42 #320281 by
Replied by on topic Joseph Campbell is awful

Vusuki wrote: So can you give some clear examples where a myth or story doesn't fit Campbell's idea of the Hero's Journey? I'm very interested in testing if it is possible to use the theory on any myth or whether I have to accord only a specific fragment of the model to the myth you give...


I don't believe all myths tell part of a whole story. There are many myth paradigms and Campbell's is only one form. He does conveniently ignore anything that does not fit his narrative. The Heroine for example. He considers the female roles in myth as a prize for the hero. According to Campbell there is no such thing as Heroine and females cannot have their own story without being intertwined with his version of "Hero". There are several other versions as well, including the anti hero story and the Homeric hero story, none of which follow the cycle that Campbell describes.


Kyrin- thanks for your time replying. I'm going to try to explore the Heroine idea you brought up and the Anti Hero story, (I don't know much about the Homeric hero story) but for later- what other myth paradigms are there please? :) I'm just playing with the ideas here.

1) When you say "he [Campbell] considers the female roles in myth as a prize for the hero", isn't Campbell simply describing how the myths they themselves present the female role (which represents their culture and values)?
2) I think there's a clarification to be made between the Heroine and the female role and this distinction is made by Campbell when he gives examples in his book, (Hero with a Thousand Faces) where Campbell does refer to (for-want-of-a-better-word) "feministic" myths (he doesn't call them that though) where the heroine as the main character in the myth goes on a similar adventure like any male hero from another myth. You gave some examples of women in myth earlier- which one do you think best rejects Campbell's mono-myth ideal?
3) I think even though the word Hero is usually seen in a masculine sense, it does not mean it is only for men (although that might be how it is portrayed by some cultures)- it is more overarching and is beyond masculinity or femininity so yes, in a way you're right than females cannot have their own story without being intertwined with Campbell's version of "Hero" but in another universe this would be the same with different words, that men cannot have their own story without being intertwined with a version of the "Heroine". Did Campbell ever say the "Hero" was ever just a man? I believe he said or at least implied that every one of us, men and woman are the Hero archetype.

The Anti-hero Story. Do you know of any Anti-Hero story from long ago? Maybe the one about Loki being a trickster god could count... but he is usually a side character or an obstacle to overcome rather than the main character/hero/anti-hero in the old myths. I think one of Campbell's premises was that myths have lasted so long because they seemed important to people throughout time. I wonder whether the Punisher or Deadpool will be remembered and revered like the myths of old. In a way, I think Anti-hero stories are more entertaining to us of today than meaningful. Possibly the same can be same for Hero stories of today like Spiderman, Superman and Batman. Maybe the fact that most anti-hero stories exist today show how our current culture feels that the lines between good and wrong are blurry and unclear as opposed to in the past (when religion played a major part in morality.). Stories of the anti-hero were inappropriate and deemed immoral by authorities and were likely destroyed. I wonder...

I've been trying to find some links disproving Campbell. I thought the wikipedia entry with criticism was interesting. There was some support to the idea that the Heroine's journey is different somehow to the male version supported by two books, The Heroine's Journey (1990) by Maureen Murdock and From Girl to Goddess: The Heroine's Journey through Myth and Legend (2010), by Valerie Estelle Frankel. Have you read either one of them Kyrin?

In any case, during this entire conversation and some research, I think I learning that I'm probably wrong to think that Campbell's model fits every story. That just fits another model I have about confirmation bias and that no one model accurately describes any one thing. There's usually a forgotten context or environmental factors that we just aren't aware of. What you know is less likely to take you by surprise than what you don't know. Additionally, there is sometimes a problem that we don't know that we don't know. We just fool ourselves into thinking we do... Still, Campbell's model is a good model for describing quite a few stories and connecting them together, if that's what you want to do. It also has helped me think about my own life in perhaps a more constructive way than before... Anyone feel they have another preferred model to seeing their own life than Campbells? :)

Below: Chapter of Criticism of the Monomyth from wikipedia posted in spoiler
Warning: Spoiler!
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10 Apr 2018 13:41 #320300 by rugadd
Replied by rugadd on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
OB1 - shoot me a PM if you would like to get into it. I'll not hijack the thread.

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11 Apr 2018 18:03 - 11 Apr 2018 18:05 #320336 by
Replied by on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
Vusuki,

While the Heroes journey is primarily an external journey the heroines journey is an internal one. It is about learning to suffer and endure. The Heroine is subjected to indignity while maintaining grace, composure, and patience. Most heroic stories involve some element of perseverance through strength of will. On the other hand the Heroine’s Journey is different in that a heroine’s perseverance is tested not to see whether she can persevere to achieve a separate goal, but rather simply to see if she can persevere, period. The Chinese legend of Hua Mulan might be a good example.

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11 Apr 2018 23:59 #320346 by
Replied by on topic Joseph Campbell is awful

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: The Chinese legend of Hua Mulan might be a good example



In contemplating this, another great example of this has been my journey here at this temple. It definitely has not been a heroic struggle to achieve but an internal struggle to persevere and grow in the face of indignity.

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12 Apr 2018 00:37 #320347 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
I'd say its relevance is to a struggle, by its association with heroism rather then to journey. And so to contextualize it as a pathway 'out' the numbering sequence serves to denote a start to contrast an end, but in practical terms since deeper struggle is usually unknowable prior I tend to find the entry point to be the struggle. Such that the departure are methods to actively choose to accept, identify and take responsibility for ones predicament so they can serve usefully going forward rather then pull one backwards. The act is a metaphor to coping with transformation from struggle. And the return allows a neat bow to ritualize the exit from the struggle. So in the context of how I see the starting point, I'd probably reclassify the 3 stages into arrival->initiation->departure, rather then departure->initiation->return. Because I don't think a hero is made for taking a journey, but for overcoming something. Certainly before our generations the larger portion of that was of the actual journey, but perhaps these days the journey is more of the mind then of the body, and so the focus can return to where the transformation now actually occurs. Random thoughts...

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17 Apr 2018 20:05 #320511 by Carlos.Martinez3
@ PaschalVehicle
Part of the lesson isn’t about the author but about the subject so keep that in mind as well if you can - regardless of the author the first lesson is about the myth. The myth - what do you think of it - seen it - recognize it- use it- see it- where when how does it have any relevance to you - how do you use it if any? The myth -

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17 Apr 2018 20:49 #320513 by TheDude
Replied by TheDude on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
On Alan Watts: I personally think The Way of Zen would be a much more useful entry in the IP than The Book. It addresses many of the same points with better presentation.

I can understand the distaste for Campbell, but his accreditation is unimportant. A degree doesn't determine your knowledge in any area; I have known philosophers with a better understanding of physics and the material sciences than many people with degrees working in the field. The fact that he doesn't have a theology degree is of no concern; the man dedicated his time to researching a particular topic, mythology, and he aims to present a unified theory of examination in that field. I will admit that he takes it a bit far, as there are many conflicting cultures and religions, with myths aiming to demonstrate different moral or metaphysical ideals, but his monomyth is useful for establishing a unified terminology for common story elements. A streamlined dictionary is very useful, and Campbell at least attempts to do so.

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17 Apr 2018 20:59 #320514 by Carlos.Martinez3
Monomyth - can I claim the allmyth as a inclusion of every myth for every man? Called it ! Lol

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17 Apr 2018 22:15 - 17 Apr 2018 22:41 #320516 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
Was thinking the other day, to me the IP worked best as a platform to explore 'patterns' in topics, as an exercise in breaking out of rigid mindsets - and not to be seen as teachings..... and as a program done so in a diverse range of topics related to the various entry points people find themselves coming to real Jediism. Some might be relevant to some and not to others. And in that regard I was disappointed to see McTaggert booted from it. For seen as a precursor to working on ones more personal areas of specialization alongside further freeing oneself from harmful paradigms in an Apprenticeship, it seemed to make sense such that as a Knight they can most fully focus and develop their own best systems of decision making, action and both physical and mental health - connecting to the Force, parsing it's nature which in 'energetic' terms to me seemed like it would be more about how one works with patterns then what patterns they believed - information mobility :D And then subsequently populating the Degree program as they progressed on self further study to overall create a momentum of subject matter specialists and a real mentoring capability. At least that is what I inferred to be the strategic direction when I joined, by way of its structure. I dunno what others see or if what the real one is, and various changes would indicate its not that, and that is ok (hopefully its better!). But to the point, in that regard, not agreeing with something in the IP is no reason to exclude it or feel like your wasting your time - to me they would be errors of view by way of being unnecessary and wasting potential positive use of the material and process. That is my own personal view though.

And in regards to the monomyth being true... I dunno, perhaps at some deeper level, though I was also reading a few days ago about Margaret Mead and her views on how Samoan culture did not seemingly follow the standard pattern in regard to adolescent sexuality and taboos. I cannot help but feel the the monomyth speaks more of individual spiritual journey then any uniformity across cultural structures. Perhaps as a result of us all sharing the same base set of instincts and mechanisms of mind, and relatively similar environments seemingly. In which case the cultural aspect really is just limited to the study and comparison of cultures, which is not so much of interest to me personally besides connecting to a particular culture.

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24 Sep 2018 03:08 - 24 Sep 2018 03:13 #326845 by
Replied by on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
Please allow me to put out there how glad I am to discover that I am not alone in struggling with this.

I got into a debate recently with someone outside of this forum regarding the works of Joseph Campbell; I asserted that his ideas were fascinating but as a student of Anthropology, I have been taught from day one the cultural relativist approach, which I believe runs contrary to Campbell's monomyth. I was referred to Bastian's elemental ideas, and Jungian archetypes, and it was suggested that the work of cognitive linguistics on the "conceptual metaphor" might support some arguments for these universal archetypes.

After cooling my heels, I realized from a scholarly perspective, there is some relevance to these arguments, and I can still enjoy Campbell's theory if I do not take the monomyth as a given when approaching analysis of new cultural expressions. There are a few lecturers who I know, that would give me a right royal dressing down if they thought for one minute I was taking ideas into the field that might interfere with the work of collecting data. These ideas may have a place during final analysis, but limited practical application aside, we don't read Campbell here to become amateur anthropologists or academic folklorists.

I made a poor attempt some time ago to refute some of Campbell's ideas in a conclusion to Lesson One of my IP Journal, which needs plenty more work before it makes any real sense. I drew upon writings by Jorgenson and Dundas, both academics who make a better case than I can at this stage. But I'm glad to be able to utilize my critical reasoning faculties, and doubly thrilled that this is a forum where that is encouraged.

I wouldn't call Campbell awful; imperfect perhaps, but not awful. He certainly believed what he taught, even if his ideas had holes in them.
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02 Nov 2018 03:53 #328715 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
I'm just going to revive this topic to ask a question:
What do you think should supplement Campbell?

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02 Nov 2018 04:19 #328716 by Br. John
Replied by Br. John on topic Joseph Campbell is awful

Rex wrote: I'm just going to revive this topic to ask a question:
What do you think should supplement Campbell?


Probably a multi-vitamin mineral pill depending on your age, health, and the recommendation of your doctor.

Remember, one perfectly correct response is to disagree in part or in full with Mr. Campbell as long as you support your ideas. It's not an indoctrination.

There will be more material, more choices and a revolution and evolution is coming to The IP and to The Order.

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02 Nov 2018 17:34 #328731 by Carlos.Martinez3
So question - who else can you find that explains the myth difrently or in a different light ?

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02 Nov 2018 19:02 #328735 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic Joseph Campbell is awful

Br. John wrote: revolution and evolution is coming to The IP and to The Order.

Care to unpack that?

Also to clarify, my post wasn't complaining that whoever devised the curriculum is awful for Ludovico techniquing us with Campbell. Just making the (hopefully obvious) point that he isn't an exhaustive approach to understanding myth, and then trying to find what else people have used in their personal journies.

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02 Nov 2018 20:19 #328738 by JamesSand
Replied by JamesSand on topic Joseph Campbell is awful

Rex wrote: Care to unpack that?


You're more interested in vague allusions that there might be a revised IP published and some sort of (real or nominal) restructure of the Temple brand, than the recommendation that multivitamins be taken as a general supplement for all and sundry?


(an industry as insidious as gift cards, diamonds, or fast food)

For the cost of the multivitamins that millions of otherwise perfectly healthy people are swallowing each day, you could change whatever small part of the world you felt needed it most.
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03 Nov 2018 11:52 - 03 Nov 2018 11:55 #328747 by
Replied by on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
Not to pull this off topic but multi-vitamins are mostly a sham. Not only do most diets(even poor ones) recieve a decent amount of the needed nutrients, but we don't absorb much from the pills anyway. There are ways to optimize the absorbtion but there are risks to taking too much of certain vitamins. Please refer to a nutritionist before adding vitamins to your diet OR removing them.
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13 Nov 2018 02:37 #329086 by Br. John
Replied by Br. John on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
This seems to need an explanation.

Vitamins, minerals, and vitamin mineral combinations are also referred to as supplements.

"Probably a multi-vitamin mineral pill depending on your age, health, and the recommendation of your doctor."

That's a pun on the word supplement, and a not that great joke, but it's a joke.

I hope and expect that changes for the better are coming. As far as the board of directors actually taking suggestions and publishing proposals for public comment, that will be after New Years Day 2019.

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13 Nov 2018 05:44 #329101 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic Joseph Campbell is awful

Br. John wrote: As far as the board of directors actually taking suggestions and publishing proposals for public comment, that will be after New Years Day 2019.

Whence the wait?

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned

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