Sith Heroes? Sith Teachings...

More
28 Aug 2019 14:22 #342638 by Kobos
I have actually read a theory of that idea. And it would come down to an individuals idea of what aspects of the force imply positive and negative. After all the Jedi use mind tricks, manipulation and even violence at times to preserve order. The story of Reavan particularly interests me for this reason. It shows a really interesting idea into the Sith and Jedi actions in the Madilorian Wars.

Much Love,
Kobos

I'm the enemy. Cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind if guy who wants to sit in a greasy spoon and think, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecued ribs with the side order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol. I want to eat bacon, butter and buckets of cheese, okay? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in a non-smoking section. I wanna run through the streets naked with green Jello all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to. Okay, pal?-Denis Leary Demolition Man 1993

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
Knight of the Conclave
The following user(s) said Thank You: Phoenix Vidensia

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • VixensVengeance
  • VixensVengeance's Avatar
  • Guest
28 Aug 2019 17:06 #342653 by VixensVengeance
Replied by VixensVengeance on topic Sith Heroes? Sith Teachings...
Cassian killed an innocent man to protect a secret greater than either of them. Was he a hero or a villian? I find this scene one of the most compelling scenes of any Star Wars movie. I see Revan in a similar light. Someone to be studied for his ability to do what it takes to win, no matter the personal cost.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
28 Aug 2019 17:47 #342659 by Kobos
Another interesting example, this is the great logic problem in action. What is the greater good? When is the greater good more important than an individual?

Personally, I believe that Cassian later acknowledges the fault of the logic used against this man and by not acting, disobeying a direct order, against what's her names father. Then subsequently in a from pays penance by sacrificing his own life in the end of rouge one in order to secure a sure idea of the greater good. Though let's also keep in mind that the battle of the first Death Star undoubtedly killed many innocent individuals. We know the Imperials held slaves and no doubt many of them were used in the process of building the Death Star, and what about the people in the detention cells that were not broken free? Collateral damage is still damage.

The story of Reavan mimics this character arc fairly well and again raises the question of this same logical issue. Many died on Telos simply because Reavan was there is this Reavans fault even though we know Darth Malek ordered the bombardment?

Much Love,
Kobos

I'm the enemy. Cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind if guy who wants to sit in a greasy spoon and think, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecued ribs with the side order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol. I want to eat bacon, butter and buckets of cheese, okay? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in a non-smoking section. I wanna run through the streets naked with green Jello all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to. Okay, pal?-Denis Leary Demolition Man 1993

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
Knight of the Conclave

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • VixensVengeance
  • VixensVengeance's Avatar
  • Guest
28 Aug 2019 17:59 #342665 by VixensVengeance
Replied by VixensVengeance on topic Sith Heroes? Sith Teachings...

"Everything I did, I did for the Rebellion, and every time I walked away from something I wanted to forget, I told myself it was for a cause I believed in. A cause that was worth it. Without that, we're lost. Everything we've done would have been for nothing. I couldn't face myself if I gave up now."
―Cassian Andor



You see here how Cassian embraces his emotions instead of denies them. His passion for what he believes in is as complete as his commitment to accept the consequences for the decisions he makes. That is why he killed the informant and that is why he did not act against Jyns father. Both the action and the lack of action are a result of what he was willing to sacrifice and what he was not willing to sacrifice and to hell with the rest of the Galaxy. He did things because of what he wanted, not anyone else and that is power.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • The Coyote
  • The Coyote's Avatar
  • Guest
28 Aug 2019 18:51 #342678 by The Coyote
Replied by The Coyote on topic Sith Heroes? Sith Teachings...

VixensVengeance wrote:

"Everything I did, I did for the Rebellion, and every time I walked away from something I wanted to forget, I told myself it was for a cause I believed in. A cause that was worth it. Without that, we're lost. Everything we've done would have been for nothing. I couldn't face myself if I gave up now."
―Cassian Andor



You see here how Cassian embraces his emotions instead of denies them. His passion for what he believes in is as complete as his commitment to accept the consequences for the decisions he makes. That is why he killed the informant and that is why he did not act against Jyns father. Both the action and the lack of action are a result of what he was willing to sacrifice and what he was not willing to sacrifice and to hell with the rest of the Galaxy. He did things because of what he wanted, not anyone else and that is power.


I don't know if I'd agree with the conclusion you came to VixensVengeance. To me, he's not embracing his emotions, he actually is trying to deny them here. His emotions are filled with guilt and regret, and he understands that some of the things he did were terrible, maybe so bad that he wouldn't even see himself as that much different than the empire he was fighting against. What I believe he poses in this quote isn't so much embracing the emotions, more he seems to be trying to justify the actions he took even though his conscious tells him that it was wrong. I think he is saying that if he were to fully embrace the emotions which he knows are lurking underneath, that it would destroy him and make him give up the cause. These things he's done only end up appearing as justifiable IF the rebellion wins, but if the rebellion didn't win or if he quit or if he was part of the empire instead, they would not be justifiable at all.

I think this points to what Kobos said that Cassian through the movie begins to actually listen to what his emotions are telling him, and in actually embracing the emotions, he refuses to obey a direct order and refuses to kill as a means to justify the end, and as Kobos pointed out sacrifices himself for the greater good.

I'll admit that he's definitely passionate for what he believes, but I think the moral in this story is that passion taken too far without morals of some sort, doesn't seem to make you much different from the enemy, and the only way to redeem yourself from that point is to recognize the fault in your thinking and change how you act. That's how I see it anyhow, the power of Cassian as a character is his transition from being a dark and questionable character, into someone who heroically sacrifices himself. In how he acted prior, I'm not sure I see much of a difference between him and a terrorist, but by the end he is a heroic figure. You could almost say that the foil to Cassian is Saw Guerra who is mostly just viewed as a terrorist and not as a hero, even in his final moments he doesn't seem to really dying for a greater cause, but rather simply giving up fighting. His lust for fighting without morals has left him as a shell of a man... hmm... similar to Darth Vader.... just now put that together... but he ends up being a character that is (literally) lost to the sands of time, probably forgotten by most.

I may be wrong of course, but that's how I saw the storyline playing out.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • VixensVengeance
  • VixensVengeance's Avatar
  • Guest
28 Aug 2019 19:43 - 28 Aug 2019 19:43 #342690 by VixensVengeance
Replied by VixensVengeance on topic Sith Heroes? Sith Teachings...
Im glad you have gotten something so valuable out of the quote that works in your life. I just see it differently. I think he feels incredibly bad about what he has done and he knows that. But I still also feel like given the chance he would not change anything he has done because it was necessary for his passion to evolve, namely the rebellion. When it came to Jyns father he found a second passion in his life as well. Do the two cause conflict between one another, maybe. But that is the complex and often times paradoxical nature of a creature of emotion such as humans are.
Last edit: 28 Aug 2019 19:43 by VixensVengeance.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • The Coyote
  • The Coyote's Avatar
  • Guest
28 Aug 2019 20:05 #342691 by The Coyote
Replied by The Coyote on topic Sith Heroes? Sith Teachings...

VixensVengeance wrote: Im glad you have gotten something so valuable out of the quote that works in your life. I just see it differently. I think he feels incredibly bad about what he has done and he knows that. But I still also feel like given the chance he would not change anything he has done because it was necessary for his passion to evolve, namely the rebellion. When it came to Jyns father he found a second passion in his life as well. Do the two cause conflict between one another, maybe. But that is the complex and often times paradoxical nature of a creature of emotion such as humans are.


Well, that's the beauty of life, we all have different perspectives that see in different ways! And I'm unsure if he would have not changed a thing, I can't speak for a fictional character haha (but perhaps they will dive into that with the new series that they are getting ready to release based around him? Perhaps time will tell!). And aren't you right about the complexity of emotion! I like the idea that he had a passion and chased it, then found a second passion. In my eyes (which you might disagree with and that's cool) is that perhaps he saw the second passion as a stronger passion than the first one, a stronger "raison d'etre" perhaps? And I think this plays out in the work of Joseph Campbell as well in his concept of Bliss. You have to start somewhere, and as you understand more things and see new perspectives, you are able to define your concept of Bliss better. I know that for me how I've defined my Bliss has definitely developed as time went on, and sometimes the things we were passionate about stop being relevant in the world in which we live. Such is the nature of life, right? Things are born, things die, and life conitnues!

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Moderators: RexZero