Are Jedi Against Deception

Connor L. oh I can easily make you believe that I am enlightened, and will endeavour to do so. I learned all the tricks of the trade to manipulate other humans into receiving an emotional state. If you want me to behave in a way that actually helps others rather than be argumentative, than sure I can adjust my temperament and be less reactive and controversial. But really I have no idea what [you] want from me..

I don't want anything from you.

Such an interesting topic, one that has been on my mind for a few months now. Since everyone seems so involved, I thought I may take a turn as well, starting with my opinions on the subject.

Deception is where a person passes information to someone else with a hidden intent. The information may be true from the perspective of either sender or receiver, or sometimes both. The interesting aspect of deception is that it can happen in complete honesty. Connotation is the part of verbal communication that is resoundingly left to interpretation. A sentence can imply 5 different messages based on emphasis of tone and pitch during specific words in the sentence.

I believe, and please correct me if I am wrong, that Ariane is trying to indicate that deception should not occur at all. From her perspective, deception is a form of distrust.

I do not believe as Ariane does. I feel that deception is a necessary part of interpersonal relationships, built in from the start. People generally fear opening up to people. As a new relationship starts, a person does not start reciting the laundry list of character defects they have, or the outstanding debts they have accumulated, or past relationships that ended in failure. Such blunt honesty would very likely leave the other person wondering if the relationship is viable.

So we tend to hide our defects until we are comfortable in the relationship. Under the concept of pure honesty, this is a form of deception. In my understanding, mankind would have a long road if everyone expected this level of honesty.

So, are Jedi against deception? That's a great question. This community thrives on individual perspectives on issues like this. Ask 10 Jedi here this question and you are very likely to get 11 answers, each one correct from the perspective of the person answering.

Ariane, I would ask you to seek the answer out within yourself. You may feel that you are a Jedi already, or you may not. The important thing to know is what you believe, why you believe it, and if you are willing to let other people believe something completely different. After all, this community is about accepting perspectives of others as an opportunity to learn more about yourself.

no one is expected to go in to the entire inventory of personal imperfections on the first date

but, lets put it like this: you should be able to and willing to if thats where the conversation goes

the "best behavior" theory taken to the point that the word "deception" even enters the mind as an appropriate descriptive is imo somewhere between "afraid" and "manipulative"

the worst possible thing in the world that you can do is hide your flaws when youre looking for a long term relationship

the idea that if someone gets to know "the good you" then they will be willing to accept the "bad" you is NOT FUNCTIONAL

im not saying to broadcast all the negative ideas you have about yourself and make it the center of attention right off the bat

what im saying is that as the relationship develops - at every step - its important to be clear about whats going on

stumbling into it haphazardly because you dont feel comfortable or confident to be deliberate almost always gets people in over their heads

the "what is the nature of our relationship and what are our requirements of each other" talk is pretty important

and imo there is no point in any romantic relationship where any kind of DECEPTION is appropriate at all if that deception involves future behavior and obligation/expectation

the last is nonya but whatever will affect the future it is your obligation to be forthright if you want things to be healthy imo

tricking someone in to liking you will backfire, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE A MAN TRICKING A WOMAN

lol
its true

her mother and all of her friends will say "yeah but you didnt know he kicks puppies" AND SHE WILL LISTEN TO THEM AS SOON AS SHE GETS TIRED OF YOUR PUPPY KICKING
and it will be totally justifiable becsuse she DIDNT know that you kick puppies

obviously theres never any need to explain something that just isnt relevant to the situation

but as soon as it is clear that someone is looking at long term potential - THAT IS THE TIME to have "the talk" about who we are and what we want, and what we are in for with each other

there is no point in avoiding that conversation; a deal breaker is a deal breaker no matter when it gets addressed

shes not going to really really like you enough to just get over/look past something that she just isnt going to accept in a relationship

not for long - she might hold on to the idea that youll change

imo, its better to be clear that this is what you have to offer, and this is what you expect you will be doing with your life for the conceivable future, this is what youre looking for in a partner, and thats all kind of a take it or leave it situation for everyone

really, no one changes very much for anyone else

it sort of happens sometimes in a way

but basically
if you liked to kick puppies before you met her, then youre still going to kick puppies once youre together
and unless you are planning to change that aspect of your behavior regardless of her, as a personal goal that has nothing to do with anyone but you and god and the kennel, then youre better off letting her know pretty early

thats one of those things her friends and family will say "but you didnt know"

and theyll be right

so again, its best to get the "i kick puppies" conversation out of the way sooner than later because, its something thats either ok or not ok, and isnt going to change just because you hook up
so if youre up font about your puppy habbit from the begining then at least the other person wont be able to say you didnt warn them

thats my opinion anyway

I think it's a personal preference. I don't like to lie or deceive, but I have I just don't practice the art of deception.

To ask if Jedi in general do this or do that is a mistake. We're all individuals. None of us follow the exact same path.

There are different degrees of deception and of lying. I don't make a practice of either. Having grown up in a family of lies and secrets I have made honesty one of my guiding virtues.

Even so...

and this is a rather shallow example: on occasion one of my students will come up to me all excited about their discovery of some idea or fact, etc. and ask me what I know about it. Oft times, this is not a request for information but really what my student wants is the opportunity to tell me what they know. It's not about what I know. So, feigning no expertise I ask the student what they have discovered. What follows is always a joy to experience.

This is a topic that I have been thinking about a lot recently. My original post for this was rather long and rambling, but I've been finding recently that less can be more when it comes to my forum posts so I will make this brief...well...briefer.

I do not like the idea of lying or deception in general. I believe that most lies, even if made with good intentions, are just going to make things worse in the end. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, as they say. I am of the thought that the ends do not justify the means. If I have to sacrifice my principles to achieve my goals then I need to re-examine either my goals or my principles.

While I do not enjoy the idea of deceiving others there are times when I do so. I realize that the world is not black and white, also that it is a messy place and I can't expect to not get some mud on me. I treat deception like I treat a weapon. I know how to use it and I have it ready should it prove absolutely necessary, but if I could go my entire life without ever pulling that trigger I'd die a happy man.

Small side note. On the first page Kitsu mentioned the Jedi Mind Trick. Interestingly, I disagree with it's use. I get why Obi-Wan used it in the first one, but feel like it'd be something that a Jedi would strive to never need to use. I can't imagine that depriving a living being of it's basic mental freedom would be something that a Jedi would do without much care or thought.

I'm fine with lying as long as I do it honestly.

Personally I prefer to be as honest as possible, and if I lie it's usually by omission alone - and I don't particularly feel that telling the truth is as restrictive as "always saying exactly what's on your mind".

Ive been sitting on this topic for days now, and I was wondering about it because its something that im struggling with in a personal sense at the moment.

I hate being lied to. Its probably my biggest peeve. And its unfortunately something that one of my parents does a lot of. Which I find disappointing and hurtful. But ive found myself wondering, why?

Its hurtful because I have the expectation of honestly, but why do I have that in the first place? Where and why did I learn that it is a desired trait and that I should expect it from people in my life? I have no answers yet

Brenna wrote: Its hurtful because I have the expectation of honestly, but why do I have that in the first place? Where and why did I learn that it is a desired trait and that I should expect it from people in my life? I have no answers yet

As a rule of thumb. Parents teach their children that Lieing is bad, its worse the swear words :laugh: at least it was in my family. Lieing got me grounded, and yelled at, and in serious Poo Doo.

But now that my parents has no say in my life I realize that it was just their way to keep track of me. Lieing makes it hard for them to know the truth of the things they can't see and control so...Nip that in the bud.

As a result. I could say that I had never lied about ANYTHING my entire life.....until mid highschool when I became an adult myself and started thinking for myself. I realized that some things are necessary to lie about and some deception can save your life.

Goken wrote: Small side note. On the first page Kitsu mentioned the Jedi Mind Trick. Interestingly, I disagree with it's use. I get why Obi-Wan used it in the first one, but feel like it'd be something that a Jedi would strive to never need to use. I can't imagine that depriving a living being of it's basic mental freedom would be something that a Jedi would do without much care or thought.

I wont go into detail as I am sure we are wanting to keep to "Real" examples and expressions here. But, I wonder if you have read the books and history of Jedi.....Jedi are not so peaceful and loving and thinking about the goodness in all things kind of people They did what was right for the greater cause. Including deception. In fact...they did quite alot of deception...The Jedi mind trick was quite a useful and common tool in their bag of tricks.

I find this question to be an open-ended question. My truth is what it is, and whether or not I wish to share it is at my discretion. I tend to look such things "Need to know vs. Nice to know". If I was an entrepreneur with viable trade secrets, I'm not going to vomit at the mouth with everything I know. That's a protected interest that I need to keep safe. I would consider misdirecting to protect my interests.

Now telling someone something that flat isn't true? I think that honesty, in this case, is the best policy.

Kitsu Tails wrote:

Goken wrote: Small side note. On the first page Kitsu mentioned the Jedi Mind Trick. Interestingly, I disagree with it's use. I get why Obi-Wan used it in the first one, but feel like it'd be something that a Jedi would strive to never need to use. I can't imagine that depriving a living being of it's basic mental freedom would be something that a Jedi would do without much care or thought.

I wont go into detail as I am sure we are wanting to keep to "Real" examples and expressions here. But, I wonder if you have read the books and history of Jedi.....Jedi are not so peaceful and loving and thinking about the goodness in all things kind of people They did what was right for the greater cause. Including deception. In fact...they did quite alot of deception...The Jedi mind trick was quite a useful and common tool in their bag of tricks.

We dont want to dwell Kitsu, thsts the difference, lol... The fiction, ANY fiction really, provides examples we can all see, and have seen with our own eyes... And as examples we have seen, we can discuss what we have seen, and all evaluate it...

Whereas whether I was right or not for stealing the apple, I have to explain, and even then, you only get a part of the story, lol...

We all saw ObiWan wave his hand... QUiGon too... and we can discuss possible the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of it... But some want to say what 'they were thinking' and honestly, it is a fictional story, told by writers...

QuiGon rolled those dice a little extra as well, to win Anakin...

I dont know the printed lore, but there are examples of 'good people' doing 'bad' all in tons and tons of stories, not just SW...

Should a Jedi follow an unjust law?

A Jedi should do what is 'right' in their mind... However, the other Jedi may not agree, and there we have our splits...

Ive broke 'unjust laws', but understanding that 'the empire' may hold me accountable didnt sway me...

haha oh I know :laugh: But if I went in to all the deceptions used by Fictional Jedi...I would risk sounding like a Nerd :woohoo: Oh.....Wait.... :blush:

Darth Revan's history is a great example of the Jedi manipulating a persons mind.....OFTEN.....to get the "Best" outcome required for their over all plans.

The Shadow Jedi were great examples as well of the Council working Deception to rid the galaxy of ANY dark taint.

Anyways Merely saying that Jedi both in fiction and in real life must treat your situation with clear judgment which will reflect your own personal Morals. Some will have more laxed morals then others. Some will judge a situation differently from the Jedi next to you. It's all sittuational as always

Having gone over the arguments of both sides, i guess it's my turn to my two cents in.

It would seem that deception is more of a skill much like persuasion rather than evil act in itself. A skill that is utilized to accomplish a goal. The intention of the Jedi's goal is what should remain "true". Obi-Wan knew that those storm troopers would take the droids and arrest he and Luke at the slightest hint of guilt. Obi-Wan has used his power of persuasion to allow them to carry on the mission without incident.
This is the ideal situation to use deception as a prevention of incident. However, if the use of deception is put toward a root of a cause, say a peace treaty, then the fruit of that tree will be poisoned. My point is, without getting too hokey, is that a foundation of lies would be devestating if the truth were revealed. The backlash would cause even more anger and violence. Don't even get me started on those who deceive for the sake of discord...Darth Sidious, burn in hell.
One must keep things in perspective of the greater good, not just long term results, like any other moral choice. It is very easy to be seduced by those who can deceive effortlessly as well as intoxicating to those who can effortlessly decieve and control others like a puppeteer. I suppose it would be safe to say that deception would be a valued skill to avoid conflict but would be immoral to utilize in manipulation. This is where we seperate the Jedi from the Sith.
Having said that; it is also a valued skill to be able to identify and nullify those who intend to manipulate the truth or just flat out lie. The greatest gift to Mankind is free will, it may be a bitch at times, but to give it up is to volunteer your own destruction.

Kitsu Tails wrote: Darth Revan's history is a great example of the Jedi manipulating a persons mind.....OFTEN.....to get the "Best" outcome required for their over all plans.

And that didn't necessarily turn out that great for anyone involved, :laugh:

If the discussion needs reference to another fictional source, then why not go to the KOTOR graphic novels, where a group of Jedi acting in secrecy for the supposed "greater good" ended up basically handing the keys to the kingdom over to the Mandelorians - and helped pave the way for Revan's rise in the first place.

Or the Jedi involvement in the Clone Wars - where despite not understanding the whole picture, the Jedi entered a massive galactic war, which turned out to be a somewhat bad idea considering it was all orchestrated by Palpatine.

The fiction is scattered with the point that the Jedi make a lot of mistakes, but in the end the ways of complete secrecy and maneuvering through deception are at the heart of what it means to be Sith.

But that's fiction - written by authors and screenwriters. Some of them might be intelligent, well-learned people with a solid grasp on the material they're creating, and some will just be aiming to spin a good (sell-able) yarn. We can't expect them all to have a good grasp on philosophy, psychology, and metaphysics. :lol:

A good fictional example of the "for the greater good" mentality would be the comedy film Hot Fuzz. Soemtimes looking at an issue through the eyes of comedy gets you a much clearer vision and understanding.

Locksley wrote: But that's fiction - written by authors and screenwriters.

........The point. Was simply to show that "Jedi" Real or Fictional are not happy fun loving, tree hugging hippies that always and only do "Good" in all things. Deception, can and has been used by REAL and fictional Jedi alike to achieve a greater goal or purpose. The outcome of those goals and purpose are equally fictional and only prove the point that Deception should not be used like a toy and whenever it suites us. But instead a Tool for the right outcome of your unique situations with the knowledge that not everything will end out happy go lucky. Just hopefully better then it could have been without the use of the tools afforded to you.

During my life I've had to hide the truth for some adventure . but to hide the truth of some small behavior is sometime good . I guess hiding smoking marijuana is somehow good . Because of the plant have good effect . Event do I think the government should make it legal . The could make tones of profit .

So when a guy known's , he has to lie , it's no walk in parc ! For sure inside of a man lying is not perfect but how good he felt during his small pass during the time his was lying . It's was just for the fun of it and was worth it for the joint .

And what about his mun how did she feel toward his son and I guess she knew the situation . I think deception can also come from the other and affect you .

I appologize Kitsu, I haven't read any of the old EU. I watched the Clone Wars series but that was it. I'm enjoying the comics of the new EU though.

My adherence to the fiction seems to be getting smaller as I go anyway. A great first step, but for me that's all it was.

I do enjoy finding out that they used deception quite a bit and that it seems to have infrequently worked out well for them. Once again good moral lessons, but the behaviour before the lesson is learned is not the behaviour I aspire to.

Brenna wrote: Its hurtful because I have the expectation of honestly, but why do I have that in the first place? Where and why did I learn that it is a desired trait and that I should expect it from people in my life? I have no answers yet

i find it extremely uncomfortable to willingly invest at an emotional level in any relationship where i am not confident that the value and "terms" of the relationship are understood and agreed on by everyone involved

i have a strong sense that loyalty is a necesaary agreememt for a mutually enriching relationship, and that loyalty is not possible without first defining, as well as can be done, what the criteria for loyalty are in any given situation

its a very stressfull situation to be attached to a person in what is "supposed" to be a "sacred" or at least an important relationship and see that the person is consistently dishonest

it means "i dont know who you are - i only know that i cannot believe what you tell me about who you are, or what you will do - which means that you could be anybody; you could be my very nemesis playing the role of my intimate"

so theres a great deal of vulnerability involved in trust - just generally speaking - we are vulnurable when we trust
but we have to trust in order to group
and facing the dangers and complexities of the world entirely alone represent an even greater vulnerability

unless one can survive deep space with no more than the body we were born with, our survival depends on some degree of group reliance

our very biology mandates some level of dependence on others

ideally this is not dependence but interdependence - a cooperative and mutually enriching unity or COMMunity

intentional deceit blatantly undermines that unity

theres also a feeling of not being appreciated or valued when someone close lies

"you know my feelings hurt when i realize youve lied to me - why wouldnt you value me enough to respect my feelings?

you know that my loyalty cannot be sincere with someone i dont trust - why isnt my loyalty worth being honest enough to earn?

you know that i am not stupid - why do you put me in the position of either being a fool who believes a lie
or of being a stool who one can just lie to at will?"

and for me i often express the idea that, ultimately, "honesty is more important than monogomy"

this kind of thinking carries over to all relationships with the understanding being "i can accept and value you for who and what you really are, without us having to pretend with each other"

but some people really are pretenders

thats how ive come to understand it so far

I am a consequentialist. Lying is not always wrong, and it is not the case that intention is important while looking at the moral value of an action. It is the consequence of the action which determines the moral quality.

If, for example, a friend of mine is interested in trying heroin, I could tell them "That's dangerous and not a good idea" or I could lie and say "A good friend of mine tried heroin and got hooked on it, tore apart his family, and overdosed and died at a young age. The stuff is awful for you and will ruin your life." I think the lie would be more effective in convincing my friend not to do heroin, so the outcome is good.

If a guy is about to kill 10 people with a bomb and you have the ability to shoot and kill that guy, you had better shoot and kill that guy. Of course it's still bad to kill that person. But the alternative is that 10 innocent people die, and if you had the ability to stop that and didn't stop it, you're partially responsible for those deaths. The same applies to deception. If you say that deception is always bad, that lying is always bad, then if that person is going to kill 10 people and you have the ability to stop him not by killing him but through deceiving him, you wouldn't lie to him and you would be responsible for their deaths. You have, in my opinion, a moral obligation to lie in that situation.