That's so gay!

ren wrote: I was discussing gay culture with another member the other day. He was complaining that nowadays homosexuals had to be young fit and hypersexual. I said I read an article where a veteran gay right activist was appalled by what his achievements were used for (basically he'd fought to be recognized as a normal person, yet modern homos don't act normal at all).

That veteran (and that member) would obviously think that a proper gay person is very different from what those new-gen gays think is a proper gay person. And while I would myself be quite happy to endlessly argue the pros and cons of being or not being shallow, they're always going to disagree because it simply is a matter of taste. there really is no point in making yourself feel bad just because you're failing to make someone think/feel like you do.

Surely all that's required to be a "proper gay person" is being sexually attracted to people of the same sex? Gay people like straight or bi people behave in different ways... they're not (necessarily) defined by their sexuality any more than anyone else is.

It's almost like saying someone's not a "proper black guy" if they don't wear a do-rag and carry an uzi... letting a stereotype cloud perception of what's "authentic". The black guy's a "proper black guy" however he behaves.

There is a member here that fears deeply what others think about their homosexuality.

They trust me and a few others, yet, I would love to refer the person to others with similar experience if the opportunity arises to do so.

So, if there are any Jedi here that want to be helpful in this way . . .please p.m. me.
If there are any members, that want to be helpful and anonymous, I can honor that also. Just let me know.

Thank You!

tzb wrote:

ren wrote: I was discussing gay culture with another member the other day. He was complaining that nowadays homosexuals had to be young fit and hypersexual. I said I read an article where a veteran gay right activist was appalled by what his achievements were used for (basically he'd fought to be recognized as a normal person, yet modern homos don't act normal at all).

That veteran (and that member) would obviously think that a proper gay person is very different from what those new-gen gays think is a proper gay person. And while I would myself be quite happy to endlessly argue the pros and cons of being or not being shallow, they're always going to disagree because it simply is a matter of taste. there really is no point in making yourself feel bad just because you're failing to make someone think/feel like you do.

Surely all that's required to be a "proper gay person" is being sexually attracted to people of the same sex? Gay people like straight or bi people behave in different ways... they're not (necessarily) defined by their sexuality any more than anyone else is.

It's almost like saying someone's not a "proper black guy" if they don't wear a do-rag and carry an uzi... letting a stereotype cloud perception of what's "authentic". The black guy's a "proper black guy" however he behaves.

Except people do think like this. What, you think no-one's ever been in trouble for not acting black enough? This happened to my wife. She doesn't act like proper diaspora you see. So she's not a real black african somehow. Some people don't even seem to understand why she doesn't know a word of patois.

ren wrote:

tzb wrote:

ren wrote: I was discussing gay culture with another member the other day. He was complaining that nowadays homosexuals had to be young fit and hypersexual. I said I read an article where a veteran gay right activist was appalled by what his achievements were used for (basically he'd fought to be recognized as a normal person, yet modern homos don't act normal at all).

That veteran (and that member) would obviously think that a proper gay person is very different from what those new-gen gays think is a proper gay person. And while I would myself be quite happy to endlessly argue the pros and cons of being or not being shallow, they're always going to disagree because it simply is a matter of taste. there really is no point in making yourself feel bad just because you're failing to make someone think/feel like you do.

Surely all that's required to be a "proper gay person" is being sexually attracted to people of the same sex? Gay people like straight or bi people behave in different ways... they're not (necessarily) defined by their sexuality any more than anyone else is.

It's almost like saying someone's not a "proper black guy" if they don't wear a do-rag and carry an uzi... letting a stereotype cloud perception of what's "authentic". The black guy's a "proper black guy" however he behaves.

Except people do think like this. What, you think no-one's ever been in trouble for not acting black enough? This happened to my wife. She doesn't act like proper diaspora you see. So she's not a real black african somehow. Some people don't even seem to understand why she doesn't know a word of patois.

People do...

Jedi, should not... At least this Jedi will not/does not (publicly)....

Of course, that being said, on Asian Saturday around my house, we speak broken English with bad accents...

I dont do it to make fun of Asians, but because I find their accents cute, lol... I can see how it would seem to an Asian that I am making fun of them, but I am not...

When I joined, I used to make fun of Christians, more specifcally, Catholics... You can find a thread early on with pictures I posted, thinking it was funny, and OK, as I am an ex-Catholic... But, one day, someone and I were talking, and it was pointed out to me how some of my Christian friends may think I am pissing on their beliefs...

I dont think I posted in that thread again....

Ren, I hope your wife realizes the world is full of buttheads... (She is married to you after all... jk,jk, I say with love!)

But, all the more, emphasizes the point I think...

Usually when someone says "that's so gay", I say "do you mean like two hot lesbians? Because if that's the case, I'm all in!"

That usually gets everyone to stop, and smile for a second, and then we can discuss why that phrase may not be appropriate anymore.

Jedi aren't like this? You're the one who finds asian accents funny but somehow not in a funny way. That's plain hypocrisy. Why not laugh at their english accent and let them laugh at your mandarin accent instead?

ren wrote: Jedi aren't like this?

I dont think I said "are" or "are not", I said "should not"...

And, as I always say, "we are practicing Jedi, not perfect jedi"....

You're the one who finds asian accents funny but somehow not in a funny way. That's plain hypocrisy. Why not laugh at their english accent and let them laugh at your mandarin accent instead?

And I am sure they do... lol... I do...

And how would I know? It's not like I speak the native language, and they, out of politeness, and concern for my ego, will not make fun of me publicly...

I acknowledge it might be taken as offensive, and therefore never do it in public... However, I know for myself that it is not meant in a mean way, cause I am not a mean, bully type person, and I think you know me well enough to know this...

As a young man, I used to get so mad at people who would speak their native tongue in front of me... Thinking they are making fun of me... I was so insecure... See a couple of gay guys giggling... I KNOW they were checking me out, probably making lewd comments and undressing me with their eyes! I was a jerk... lol.. (some may say still are, lol)

What a child I was, lol...

I enjoy dark humor... I like being made fun of... I like making fun of the stereotypes... I really like Eminem because of his self depreciating humor in his songs...

Jestor wrote:

ren wrote: Jedi aren't like this?

I dont think I said "are" or "are not", I said "should not"...

And, as I always say, "we are practicing Jedi, not perfect jedi"....

You're the one who finds asian accents funny but somehow not in a funny way. That's plain hypocrisy. Why not laugh at their english accent and let them laugh at your mandarin accent instead?

And I am sure they do... lol... I do...

And how would I know? It's not like I speak the native language, and they, out of politeness, and concern for my ego, will not make fun of me publicly...

I acknowledge it might be taken as offensive, and therefore never do it in public... However, I know for myself that it is not meant in a mean way, cause I am not a mean, bully type person, and I think you know me well enough to know this...

As a young man, I used to get so mad at people who would speak their native tongue in front of me... Thinking they are making fun of me... I was so insecure... See a couple of gay guys giggling... I KNOW they were checking me out, probably making lewd comments and undressing me with their eyes! I was a jerk... lol.. (some may say still are, lol)

What a child I was, lol...

I enjoy dark humor... I like being made fun of... I like making fun of the stereotypes... I really like Eminem because of his self depreciating humor in his songs...

Then why promote the feeling insecure route over the everyone laughs route? How is it Jedi to encourage a system where people are constantly being manipulated by their emotions (and as such being manipulated by other people through their emotion) instead of a system where no-one takes anything too personally?

I agree we should give others the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, I may have been hurt, but more often than not they are expressing a feeling, not a deeply researched hatred.

And yes, Jestor, if all my friends were jumping off a bridge, I would too....

They are all pretty much levelheaded and if they thought there was a real need I might give it some credence. What if they know about a pack of velociraptors headed onto the bridge, or explosives set to blow underneath it and are to busy saving themselves to yell out a warning?

sit back, relax and have a cold drink, it's just humor :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZjojZrG2o0

ren wrote: Then why promote the feeling insecure route over the everyone laughs route? How is it Jedi to encourage a system where people are constantly being manipulated by their emotions (and as such being manipulated by other people through their emotion) instead of a system where no-one takes anything too personally?

Your wording confuses me a bit, but I think I understand...

I believe I have been promoting "some need to be more sensitive, and others less sensitive", have I not?

We are all manipulated, voluntarily, or not, and manipulate, voluntarily or not, once in a while...

You can tell people to suck it up, that they are only words, and choose to speak like you like, and then you can also miss out on great conversations, and intelligent people, who just dont really want to be around you... That's fine, you are no worse off, and neither are they...

When someone tells you, "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and you point out that that is not necessarily true, you are correct...

However, we are not flies, and as an former exterminator, it takes a combination of baits to attract your target...

So, while we tell some to suck it up, and remember they are just words, some people are not as far along as others, and need the time to get to the point where they are just words... Till they do, we, as responsible Jedi, need to remember that whatever we say may affect others...

You can tell people to suck it up, that they are only words, and choose to speak like you like, and then you can also miss out on great conversations, and intelligent people, who just dont really want to be around you... That's fine, you are no worse off, and neither are they...

Agreed. I wouldnt want to be around people like this anyway. So really, making no effort to conceal our true selves only serves to speed up the "rejection" process. I had never thought of it this way and it makes a lot of sense.
I think it's fair to assume people who do make the effort really fear "rejection", it's not that they want to (appear to) be someone they are not.

ren wrote: I think it's fair to assume people who do make the effort really fear "rejection", it's not that they want to (appear to) be someone they are not.

Im probably just being thick, but im not sure I understand how that assumption can be made?

ren wrote:

You can tell people to suck it up, that they are only words, and choose to speak like you like, and then you can also miss out on great conversations, and intelligent people, who just dont really want to be around you... That's fine, you are no worse off, and neither are they...

Agreed. I wouldnt want to be around people like this anyway. So really, making no effort to conceal our true selves only serves to speed up the "rejection" process. I had never thought of it this way and it makes a lot of sense.
I think it's fair to assume people who do make the effort really fear "rejection", it's not that they want to (appear to) be someone they are not.

(For those of you unaware, this is a long, ongoing conversation... Neither Ren nor I are upset, and have had many great conversations......)

Really? You are pretty well surrounded by people who are concerned, to varying degrees, about the feelings of others, and, how our words and actions affect them...

Do you think I'm "fake", that this is not truly who I am?

And, do you really think I fear rejection? Lol...

I do like being liked, I like having friends, and whatever... But I'm not afraid of being alone either...

And yet, I make the effort...

I want to ask you something, and its personal, so, sending a PM...

It seems natural for hearing language to influence emotions, so to deny responsibility for the impact of ones language onto other people seems a bit unusual. It takes a bit of effort and training to close oneself down to responding emotionally and there can be all sorts of historical reasons why sensitivities exist which make it even harder - maybe impossible. I'm not saying its impossible though, the brain is pretty powerful, it just seems an unusual expectation to apply over everyone.

So, my opinion would be that carefree freedom of expression sounds inversely proportional to knowledge of the audience - no knowledge, then be diplomatic and compassionate. With knowledge of individuals comes awareness of what can be acceptable to them (and unacceptable). Diplomatic and compassionate does sound a bit boring but its polite to get to know someone a bit at first I think.

I find topics referring to personal identity are discussed very passionately, and from extremely variant voices, in all groups: family, religion, friends, or at work. I see that separated sense of self at the heart of the human condition. :ohmy:

When the phrase (or label) is . . . . “that’s so gay” or one of many other phrases (or labels), said by others in the media, in ear shot or to a person directly . . . .my person philosophies have become the same . . .

* people will say what they will say, I try to accept things as they are. This practice helps me to accept myself.

* when my “sensitive button” is triggered, I have come to learn that it is my opportunity to go within and accept things about myself. This practice helps me to accept others.

**Cause and Effect are one. . given our inter-connectivity and The Force, I don’t see them as separate***

**acceptance doesn’t always come in a nice neat package. . . “just accept”. . .it is a process of inquiry, discovery and patience . . and it occurs over time. . . tweak, adjust, tweak . .

**for myself, I consider the following thinking a fantasy: “so and so said (or didn’t) say this or that. . . ” Why do I consider it a fantasy? Because they did say it! Because they didn’t say it!.
I am hard on myself. :woohoo:

**another fantasy I had to address is “how do I make them stop”. All the times I had this fantasy, I was avoiding the real question (as others have mentioned) Why does it bother me?

For myself, I do sit back and say . .”they are words . . just words. . why am I disturbed?” What do I believe about these words as to perception of self? Why do I feel separate from another human because of words????

I stay open to learn for myself that overcoming ego includes not only “big shot/better than” but also “little sh*t/less than”. Either side of the coin, perpetuates separateness.

Jedi practice taking the path of overcoming ego. It seems we stand a better chance to effect change in the world and to be truly helpful by utilizing wisdom sourced in our own inner peace (and sanity) versus actions and banners sourced in emotion. It seems we get more creative and can better utilize our talent and abilities by doing so also.

Just a few . . . :blink: . . . thoughts on aspects of my spiritual practice and Jedi practice (which I can apply to any circumtance actually).

Brenna wrote:

ren wrote: I think it's fair to assume people who do make the effort really fear "rejection", it's not that they want to (appear to) be someone they are not.

Im probably just being thick, but im not sure I understand how that assumption can be made?

"and then you can also miss out on great conversations, and intelligent people, who just dont really want to be around you..."

It looks to me like people make efforts for the purpose of gaining something from people who wouldn't otherwise like them. Therefore I make the assumption that it is because they fear missing out on something/being rejected.

Now of course everyone else calls that "social whoring", a well documented phenomenon in humans and our primate cousins. but what one gets out of it is fake love/appreciation instead of real money... Doesn't feel right to put two very different things in the same bag.

ren wrote:

Brenna wrote:

ren wrote: I think it's fair to assume people who do make the effort really fear "rejection", it's not that they want to (appear to) be someone they are not.

Im probably just being thick, but im not sure I understand how that assumption can be made?

"and then you can also miss out on great conversations, and intelligent people, who just dont really want to be around you..."

It looks to me like people make efforts for the purpose of gaining something from people who wouldn't otherwise like them. Therefore I make the assumption that it is because they fear missing out on something/being rejected.

Now of course everyone else calls that "social whoring", a well documented phenomenon in humans and our primate cousins. but what one gets out of it is fake love/appreciation instead of real money... Doesn't feel right to put two very different things in the same bag.

ok... I think im getting what you mean. What if for instance I am on a train beside a person I dont know and will never see again. And they ask me something and I am pleasant in return. I gain nothing from them. Would that still be "social whoring"? Is the exchange fake?

"ok... I think im getting what you mean. What if for instance I am on a train beside a person I dont know and will never see again. And they ask me something and I am pleasant in return. I gain nothing from them. Would that still be "social whoring"? Is the exchange fake?"

@Brenna

The example you gave doesn't include the motivation for smiling back, so it can't be qualified or disqualified either way.

It seems social whoring is the extreme of people pleasing.

I have heard people talk about prostituting one's self for love (meaning with or without sexual transaction and love/approval as the exchange).

Based on what Ren posts, technically,they are probably synonmous.

Does there need to be a motivation for being pleasant or polite?