The Man Thread: a discussion (and celebration) of masculinity

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Who wrote his ? This is key to finding and making the distinction between character and toxicity.
These statements are why we have problems in American society

This is not the "critique my meme thread" Carlos. Stop disparaging my posts in the celebrating masculinity thread. You want to debate the merits then read the directions and get over to the debating toxic masculinity thread.

Wow

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote:
Wow

I know!! Reading is important isn't it!

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote:
Wow

I know!! Reading is important isn't it!

Please don’t speak to me like this. I find it insulting and offensive. Thank you .


Edit: I do apologize for the de- rail. I truly am sorry - never the intention please continue. Mi Culpa

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote:
Wow

I know!! Reading is important isn't it!

Please don’t speak to me like this. I find it insulting and offensive. Thank you .

But wait a minute now. Why do you get to speak to me like that and when it gets returned to you you get insulted?

Whomever put and end to this...thank you.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote:
Wow

I know!! Reading is important isn't it!

Please don’t speak to me like this. I find it insulting and offensive. Thank you .

But wait a minute now. Why do you get to speak to me like that and when it gets returned to you you get insulted?

Pls forgive me .

This is not the "critique my meme thread" Carlos. Stop disparaging my posts in the celebrating masculinity thread. You want to debate the merits then read the directions and get over to the debating toxic masculinity thread.

Trolls need a safe space too.

(What, I'm trapped. You're either being deliberately provocative, or you believe in what I see as the worst qualities of masculinity (or American insecurity, whatever you want to call it) and you've given yourself some sort of diplomatic immunity to criticism?)

Either this is deep layered irony, or you're just a pain.

I guess the upside is, this isn't my playground, so I don't have to decide which it is.



(Oh, are we disguising this trash with calling it "celebrating masculinity" ? - I don't have a meme, sorry, but here's a video I found that more or less expresses my feels (apparently written by a woman, but I'm sure I can just say it espouses strong masculine qualities, and since we're not allowed to call BS on clear BS, who is going to stop me?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLsSwdieEDQ

Update: I found a version sung by a great man, so no more problems!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on9UFsxdC0Q

OB1Shinobi wrote: If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

Rudyard Kipling

Warning: Spoiler!

This topic is meant to foster discussion about masculinity and what it means to be a man. Im beginning with the presupposition that masculinity is a good thing and that boys and men need masuline images and ideals towards which we may aspire. My especial hope is for men who are “walking the walk” to provide some insight that could be useful for the younger guys who are trying to figure themselves out in this crazy, mixed up world.

A very general description that was given to me about manhood by my father in the short time that i had with him was that A Man is someone who works hard, is responsible and honest, takes care of his family and is willing to put himself at risk in order to do what he knows is right, if/when its necessary.

Of course thats a very general set of ideas and by todays standards we’d mostlly say they apply equally to men and women, if they apply at all. Im certainly not saying that women cant or dont or shouldnt do these things so dont be offended lol however, i think its geeat if people want to discuss healthy femininity, but this is the Man Thread. Please stay on topic.

Some potential talking points:

MEN
What were you taught, explicity and implicitly about what it mean to be a man? Where do you feel youve done well and where do you think you could be doing better?

Is there a difference between being a good man and being a good person? If so, what is it?


For the ... not quite young anymore, men, lol: how has your view of masculinity changed over the years?

Are there any lessons you wish you could send back in time to your younger self or to the boys and younger men of today?

What about males who dont fit the traditional images of masculinity, such as those who are gay or trans, or even those who are just not generally very competitive or athletic or “masculine”?


WOMEN
What do you think it means to be a man?

What are some your basic expectations of men?

Can you describe a time when a man didnt “measure up”, and why?

Opposite of previous question, would you share an experience of a man who impressed you as a man?

I am definitely interested in peoples answers to these questions but if you feel you have something different (but positive) to contribute, plesse do so.

Thanks

THAT is perfect masculinity. To be powerful beyond measure, yet measured in all actions. Let's just not limit it to us males.. lest we interrupt the karma of some of our sisters..

I don't have a meme, sorry, but here's a video I found that more or less expresses my feels (apparently written by a woman, but I'm sure I can just say it espouses strong masculine qualities, and since we're not allowed to call BS on clear BS, who is going to stop me?)

You feel like your boyfriend doesn't love you but can manage to bed you any time and you have to follow a list of rules to avoid that? Explain.

Animal magnetism?

This thread lasted 10 days.

Doesn't seem like a long time to ponder and discuss a subject that has such an impact on almost everyone, one way or another.

My wife often says to me "You're a good man"

Which is interesting, because to most people I'm an incorrigible bastard.

It's hard to be a good person, especially to many people, because we are fickle with our heroes.

Anyway, where I was thinking with this was that part of the Masculine story (myth, if you will) is Sacrifice. We want Men to sacrifice themselves.

I couldn't find a clip on youtube, but as per The Magnificent Seven, once our manly men cowboys have given their time (and lives) to protect a village that is not their own -
"The Old Man was right. Only the farmers won. We lost. We'll always lose."

These are the Men, the Heroes, they lost, but at the end of the movie, we want to be more like them, not like the farmers.

Now this is fine and dandy, but sacrifice is a hard sell, we're all a bit more cynical now, we're not sure dying for honor and family is all it is cracked up to be...men want to have fun now, they want pretty things, they want smooth skin, and good looking shoes, and drugs and so on and so forth. We don't honor these men so much, we question their masculinity, we call their question into identity.

Some of them embrace it, and call the stoic "man" of "old" a neanderthal or chauvinist. Much is lost in translation, and in the war for identity (which, by it's nature, must paint your in group as the Correct way, and any alternatives as flawed in some fashion)

I've forgotten what tidy conclusion I had for this. Time for coffee.

After reading the poem, I believe that it is more about guiding a child through a journey of personal growth to transition as an adult. Throughout the poem Kipling repeats

if you can...

which then culminates at the end by saying at the end that if you can do all of these then the earth will be yours.

chaostheory95 wrote: After reading the poem, I believe that it is more about guiding a child through a journey of personal growth to transition as an adult. Throughout the poem Kipling repeats

if you can...

which then culminates at the end by saying at the end that if you can do all of these then the earth will be yours.

I think that's the idea. Becoming a man is a rite of passage from childhood to adulthood!

I truly believe that's one of the reasons we have so many 'man-children" in my generation. Our society has largely lost the rite of passage to manhood.

For women, it's automatic. Menstruation signals the transition from girlhood to womanhood. But what is there for boys?

Back in the day, there was some kind of ritual - the first hunt, start of an apprenticeship, or somesuch, often with a celebration. Then, the new man was expected to take on the responsibilities of man of the tribe/society.

I feel bad for today's boys who don't have any clear instructions for manhood. And so, I am thankful for the men who guide our generation's lost boys on an individual basis, as society has fallen short.

The difference between a child and a man is responsibility. A man should be responsible for his actions and their consequences, for your life and the impact that life has on society at large. As a man lac of knowledge no longer is an acceptable excuse thus a man should be in a constant state of learning to do his duty properly. And also should be responsible for his lack of action.

Leah Starspectre wrote:

chaostheory95 wrote: After reading the poem, I believe that it is more about guiding a child through a journey of personal growth to transition as an adult. Throughout the poem Kipling repeats

if you can...

which then culminates at the end by saying at the end that if you can do all of these then the earth will be yours.

I think that's the idea. Becoming a man is a rite of passage from childhood to adulthood!

I truly believe that's one of the reasons we have so many 'man-children" in my generation. Our society has largely lost the rite of passage to manhood.

For women, it's automatic. Menstruation signals the transition from girlhood to womanhood. But what is there for boys?

Back in the day, there was some kind of ritual - the first hunt, start of an apprenticeship, or somesuch, often with a celebration. Then, the new man was expected to take on the responsibilities of man of the tribe/society.

I feel bad for today's boys who don't have any clear instructions for manhood. And so, I am thankful for the men who guide our generation's lost boys on an individual basis, as society has fallen short.

Don't feel bad, its probably not what is going on IMO, as we do already have a serious rite. It is not a small thing to suddenly be crazy horny 24/7, but the kicker is having to restrain it..... for that can make blokes feel owed if they let it, leading to possessiveness, resentment and other dare I say toxic behaviors. But it is ongoing through life, so the way its handled can represent a lifelong attribute of ones psychology, IMO. The rite is the onset and how it ends up being handled. Too many puns....

So I think what is happening is as each generation gets a little bit more coddled then the last, we see a steady increase in both varieties of adult babies - but when you add over-coddling onto a bloke who gets twisted up about societies restrictions on his sex drive, he blames others eg society or women etc. Of course that argument makes superficial sense, but I think it just part of trying to create a micro-society where they can unravel that twist a bit. Of course in the old days they'd just go out raping n piliging, owning harems or take the closest unguarded skirt when it pleased them! Be their true self haha. Though its not their true selves as such, but pent up anxiety about it. So today these male adult babies seem to tend towards manipulation, limp wrested domination and complaining. Of course under-coddled twisted blokes go the other way, with the same foundations spinning more into aggressiveness and volatility. Shared attributes tbetween soft twisted and hard twisted seem to be lower trustworthiness and lots of lies, ie fake, as a result of letting sexual restraint twist them up. But for the vast majority of blokes intrinsic to having restraint is not letting it show, talk about it, or even acknowledge it. It appears if many are not true to their nature then they will seek to make others pay for it, eventually either slowly and quiet, or dramatically and fast. Better options are to find a way to live with its nature in a positive way, or go deeper to align with its essence as manifestation, and instead don't be twisted up about... don't let it shape oneself.

So not only do blokes have a right of passage, but it's one which defines their whole path as adults, unless they (here I go again) 'man up' and 'clean their act up'. Unfortunately for society, sociopaths excel at manipulation and so coming out of a patriarchal age the twisted male often is comfortable enough with what they can 'construct' to bother bettering themselves.