Atheism: Belief or not a belief?

Miss_Leah wrote:

Snowy Aftermath wrote: I did not ask for and do not want this thread, Goken. I don't come to TotJO to tell other people who they are. I didn't show up here to tell this guy how to be a Christian or that guy how to be a Pagan. It doesn't matter what Cable or anyone else says on the matter, they aren't living it and certainly express no real interest in learning about it, they just want to dictate to me who I am. To show up and INSIST that something that they aren't living or experiencing is a certain way is nothing but arrogance. How would they know?

So everybody have fun arguing about something you aren't even interested in learning more about. Have fun making assumptions about other people and dropping generalizations. Have fun being part of the group that trusts rapists more than atheists . What do I care?

I have to deal with this ignorant BS in the real world, I'm not going to stand alone in yet another thread. You all claim to be open-minded. Use your mind. Go google it and study it in actual places where we roll.

I will not be run out of here like you all did to Mahogany.

I'm assuming here, but I think that the thread is not to discuss if atheism is valid or not, but whether it can be called a "belief" or not, seeing as strictly speaking, it means an absence of belief in God.

I personally think it's irrelevant, because everyone has beliefs, whether they have a name for the dogma, or a deity, or prophet, etc.

Either way, I don't think it's meant to be a dig at atheists.

Seems to me this thread was just created to hold a friendly discussion. And as usual....People are blowing things out of proportions and letting their sensitivities get tangled up.

rugadd wrote: Alright, if we can accept that, why then, would people call atheism a belief? Perhaps because their own perspective is seen through that lens? Their "wired" to see it as one?

I think it's because there isn't a term for the opposite of a "belief". It's uncommon enough (a small enough minority of the population) that the language has failed. I have been confronted several times with "well if it's not a belief, what is it?"

The word doesn't exist. It's like "cisgender" before there was a word for that. They just called it "normal people", which was so offensive for transgender people.

I don't think we are any more...

I think it is fair to say that much of the confusion associated with labeling yourself as a Christian or Atheist or Jedi or Muslim or Spaghetti Monster is that people change.

Christians can believe that there is no such thing as an Atheist because they have seen a self-title Atheist be 'born again' and become Christian. In their experience, the Atheist simply hadn't been introduced to God yet. They then can apply that assumption to every other Atheist in their mind. There is no such thing as an Atheist, only someone who doesn't know their God yet. This is one of the main motivations for missionary work, to introduce God to the 'non-believers'.

In the same way, a Christian can become disillusioned and declare that 'there is no God'. So, being that they previously believed in God, can they truly be considered Atheist? Some Atheists would say 'no', but others might say that this person finally came to their senses and realized that God cannot be proven and so He doesn't exist. *POOF* You're now an Atheist.

Either way, in every moment of your life you believe something, even if it is that you do not believe in something else. The fact that an Atheist can be defined as someone who does not believe in God because there is no proof could be said to believe in the scientific method or logic that would provide that very proof.

I really don't feel like that needed brought up again Trisskar. It had been dealt with and the conversation had moved on. There's no reason to pile on.

...Which I just contributed to...

Let's just move along with the discussion at hand.

Trisskar wrote: And as usual....People are blowing things out of proportions and letting their sensitivities get tangled up.

And as usual, your reaction, Trisskar.

Edit: I agree with the others who I didn't read until this edit I'm doing right now, and I'm moving forward.

rugadd wrote: Alright, if we can accept that, why then, would people call atheism a belief? Perhaps because their own perspective is seen through that lens? Their "wired" to see it as one?

That would be a good way to put it, yes.

Luthien wrote:

rugadd wrote: Alright, if we can accept that, why then, would people call atheism a belief? Perhaps because their own perspective is seen through that lens? Their "wired" to see it as one?

That would be a good way to put it, yes.

I can safely say that I would, from now on, say that Atheism is not a belief, which was not my stance three pages ago.

Goken wrote:

Luthien wrote:

rugadd wrote: Alright, if we can accept that, why then, would people call atheism a belief? Perhaps because their own perspective is seen through that lens? Their "wired" to see it as one?

That would be a good way to put it, yes.

I can safely say that I would, from now on, say that Atheism is not a belief, which was not my stance three pages ago.

So are you saying you now believe Atheism is not a belief? :laugh: :evil:

Senan, I don't think a lack of one belief automatically assumes another, say, belief in science or logic or what not.

Also, I'm with Goken. I thought Atheism was a belief until this thread too.

So are you saying you now believe Atheism is not a belief? :laugh: :evil:[/quote]

Um....no. We KNOW it isn't a belief now. Big difference.

rugadd wrote: Senan, I don't think a lack of one belief automatically assumes another, say, belief in science or logic or what not.

True enough. I know that's one of those logical fallacies that I am horrible at identifying.

And I was just having a little fun at Goken's expense, but he knows I'm just messing around.

(Senan, I love your avatar, by the way. Always makes me smile!)

I do really apologize for my initial response. I've been expecting to eventually be run out of here for my atheism because that's how religious sorts of communities tend to go for me. I thought it was time.

I do actually appreciate the reasonable voice people have used in this thread. This is the first time people have talked about atheism where it didn't end like a Salem witch trial.

Heh...I had faith in my people...and that includes you, Snowy!

Snowy Aftermath wrote: I do really apologize for my initial response. I've been expecting to eventually be run out of here for my atheism because that's how religious sorts of communities tend to go for me. I thought it was time.

I do actually appreciate the reasonable voice people have used in this thread. This is the first time people have talked about atheism where it didn't end like a Salem witch trial.

If that were true, I'd have been run out of here a long while ago. Kickin' and screamin', no less. I like this place and the people in it.

EDIT

wow this conversation has moved way too fast lol

the following post is slightly "outdated"

Snowy Aftermath wrote:

Miss_Leah wrote: I'm assuming here, but I think that the thread is not to discuss if atheism is valid or not, but whether it can be called a "belief" or not, seeing as strictly speaking, it means an absence of belief in God.

I personally think it's irrelevant, because everyone has beliefs, whether they have a name for the dogma, or a deity, or prophet, etc.

Either way, I don't think it's meant to be a dig at atheists.

Christians say that atheism is a "belief" or "religion" all of the time to discredit us and claim that there are no real atheists. I can not understand why supposedly intelligent human beings cannot wrap their minds around this one and ONLY simple identifying feature.

Atheism is a belief as much as bald is a hair color.

well, bald is a hair condition

by definition, atheism is the position of not being convinced that there is a god/are gods, or supernatural forces

however

there are atheists who believe that there definitely is not and cannot be any god or gods, nor any kind of "divine" or supernatural reality or supernatural beings whatsoever, and that is legitimate atheism too

also, there is a portion of the atheist community that is as zealous and ideological in their promotion of atheism (and demotion of religion) as any other religious fanatic

when a person has decided that they know what "the truth" of reality is, even if that truth is that there is no truth, or there is no god, they have crossed into the realm of taking a religious position, and imo, are religious, even if in a non-traditional way

my personal opinion is that it is almost impossible not to be religious, because of what "religious" is; the main function of religion, or one of the main functions of religion, is to provide the individual with a contextual map of reality, so that he or she can have some confidence of his or her place within reality, existence, life, ect

religion helps us orient ourselves within the world, by giving us a set of suppositions about what the world is

that is (one of) religions primary purpose(es)

once a person has "filled in the blanks" in this kind of questioning, he or she has crafted or accepted religious propositions, in my view at least

but many atheists are attached to the idea that they are not religious, and so theres resistance when this point comes up in this way

i agree that there are plenty of Christians who try to discredit atheism, usually misrepresenting it in the process

i understand that this can leave an atheist feeling touchy, that is totally understandable

i dont think that was the intention here

---

about mahogany; she wasnt "run off," she left

she could have found and still could find friendship and acceptance here, just as everyone else does, but she didnt see that

she left because she faced resistance to her ideas and especially to her methods

she was presented with viewpoints different from her own, and critical of her own, just as everyone else here faces at some time or another, and that was something that she was not willing to accept

i can see why she felt that this was not the place for her; at the time, i myself felt like she was trolling and if i did not challenge her outright, i certainly was going to on a couple of her points, had the conversation continued

now i rather wish she had stuck it out, i know that she would have received support from a sizable share of the community (as well as challenge)

she didnt stick it out though, and that was her decision

Atheism is a belief.
Doubt exists only when there is a subject to be doubted and a doubter willing to doubt. When a subject, in this case God/Gods, is doubted, it is made subject to inquiry. Agnostics stop at doubting, and don't go into further inquiry to determine whether the claim "God(s) exist" is true or false. Atheists, however, pursue inquiry until they come to the conclusion that there are no Gods, erasing previously held beliefs and doubts and replacing them with a new belief.
And by belief I'm referring to any piece of information which is not verifiable to absolute certainty. For example, it is a fact that something exists (cogito ergo sum) but almost everything else is a belief. I believe that there is a lamp in this room with me, since I see it and have interacted with it, but I may be subject to an illusion or some other deception, and so the existence of the lamp is not absolutely certain. As a result, I can only say that I believe the lamp is there or that I believe there is no lamp there. If someone is atheist, it is because they have followed the pattern from belief to doubt to inquiry and back to belief. So I think atheism is a belief.

Snowy Aftermath wrote: I do really apologize for my initial response. I've been expecting to eventually be run out of here for my atheism because that's how religious sorts of communities tend to go for me. I thought it was time.

I do actually appreciate the reasonable voice people have used in this thread. This is the first time people have talked about atheism where it didn't end like a Salem witch trial.

i know for certainty that there are people who would love to see me go, but i dont care

i like this place and i value the people in it, even the ones i disagree with, (even the ones who would like to get rid of me lol) and i am staying (or if i leave it will not be because anyone "runs me off")

i hope you do too

ignore the torches and pitchforks if you see them lol they cant hurt you

OB1Shinobi wrote: well, bald is a hair condition

I think that was her point. lol


TheDude:
Perhaps it isn't doubt, but a conclusion about something. OB1 made a great point about those in the Atheist community that there are those who vehemently oppose religion so much that it has become an extreme religion in that regard.

I would further say that there is a sort of spectrum about it, too. I consider myself an agnostic atheist, or one who doesn't know, but also doesn't live as if a god exists. I don't give it thought and I don't feel there is anything there to doubt. The idea, maybe, but no thing. Explaining it the way people do is like me stating that there is a tiny teapot in orbit between the Earth and Venus. I put the idea out there, but you doubt its existence. You wouldn't necessarily say that you believe there isn't a teapot in that orbit, nor would you give it any thought outside the conversation, nor would you live life constantly rejecting the idea of a teapot being in that certain orbit. You would most likely say that you have no belief in the teapot and that the idea is rather silly to you.