Religious Deception?

Thanks everyone, for reminding me that being a Jedi means striving for integrity and courage.

I think I'll have a chat with my friend tonight. I'll explain the situation and that my goal was religious discourse/give-and-take of spiritual wisdom, which would include divulging my own beliefs, even when they contradict her own. But if there's no place in her group for discourse, then I'll gracefully decline to attend any further. Same goes if her purpose is to evangelize me and usher me back into the Church.

I will be strong and proud (though not forceful) in my Jedi beliefs. There's no place for me in a group that can't or won't recognize them as a valid. Pretending doesn't help anybody.

I really appreciate you all helping me to remember that.

Please let us know how it goes. I, for one, would be interested in hearing how your friend (as well as you) take it :0)

If it's not too late though, I wanted to chime in and say that I can relate- I am a Jedi, but I work at a Christian nursery school. (Unfortunately, there are no Jedi nursery school ;0) At my school, Jesus Christ and God are discussed during Bible Time and (sort of) throughout the day (like praying a poem-like prayer before eating). Like you, I too grew up in the Christian church and left when I began to realise that my beliefs, faith, and Path didn't lie there; so, it does sometimes feel like I'm being deceitful when I tell my students that Jesus died and was resurrected to save them from their sins because I don't believe that. But, when I feel this, I think 'Who am I to tell them that it's wrong? It's right for them, so where's the harm?' Joseph Campbell said in 'The Power of Myth' that 'all religions are true, but none are literal.' And if I think about it this way, I don't find it wrong to relay to them what they already believe.

(I think of it kind of like this- if I were to go work in a shop where the only colour is blue and all other colours are considered gross, who am I to tell them that that's incorrect? In their view, blue IS the only colour that's 'good.' I may not believe it myself, but if blue doesn't bother me, why not work there? I like blue.)

Now, at the same time, I won't actively say that I believe along lines that I don't- I won't say that I personally believe Jesus' death and resurrection is the only way to heaven (or that the blue is the only good colour)- because THEN I would be lying; but as the people around me believe X, Y, and Z, I won't presume to say they're wrong either. They believe it. So as long as your friend is made aware of your beliefs, there is no more harm in going to church with her and supporting her than there would be selling blue things to blue people.

Do you want to go back? If yes, then do, if no, then don't.

If you go back, don't worry about having deceiving them. If their ministry speaks to you and eventually gets you to be a Christian alongside them, then they have accomplished the goal which God set them out to accomplish. Thus, your deception means very little. But be honest with them "I'm not Christian, the reason I'm here is _______". If they are truly Christian, then they will hold out hope that one day you might find what they say to be the truth.

sorry im late, im glad you have reached a conclusion that works for you

below is a quote i like

“Anything is one of a million paths. Therefore you must always keep in mind that a path is only a path; if you feel you should not follow it, you must not stay with it under any conditions. To have such clarity you must lead a disciplined life. Only then will you know that any path is only a path and there is no affront, to oneself or to others, in dropping it if that is what your heart tells you to do. But your decision to keep on the path or to leave it must be free of fear or ambition. I warn you. Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary.

This question is one that only a very old man asks. Does this path have a heart? All paths are the same: they lead nowhere. They are paths going through the bush, or into the bush. In my own life I could say I have traversed long long paths, but I am not anywhere. Does this path have a heart? If it does, the path is good; if it doesn't, it is of no use. Both paths lead nowhere; but one has a heart, the other doesn't. One makes for a joyful journey; as long as you follow it, you are one with it. The other will make you curse your life. One makes you strong; the other weakens you.


Before you embark on any path ask the question: Does this path have a heart? If the answer is no, you will know it, and then you must choose another path. The trouble is nobody asks the question; and when a man finally realizes that he has taken a path without a heart, the path is ready to kill him. At that point very few men can stop to deliberate, and leave the path. A path without a heart is never enjoyable. You have to work hard even to take it. On the other hand, a path with heart is easy; it does not make you work at liking it.”

Carlos Castaneda, The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge

he talks quite a lot about the idea of the path with heart in his books

to clarify some of the above, that isnt to say that a path with heart is easy, in the sense that it wont require effort

it is easy in the sense that when you ask if its "right" for you to be there, its easy to say "yes" this is the right, or A right place for me to be

for me, i can use martial arts as one of my examples of a path with heart, particularly and most recently jiu jitsu

it is not easy at all

there have been times when i felt deep reluctance to show up for class, i mean there was like a primal sense of dread for a while, which i even dubbed "the black pit of despair" lol

because every class i was getting smashed by everyone

its a difficult and humbling experience to basically be wrestled into submission over and over and over lol

which is what happen, especially in the first few months of a submission grappling style

so i doubted that i was capable of doing well maybe

i wondered if i would ever be good at it, and even now i know that i may be hurt doing it

but there was never a time when i doubted that it was good for me, or that it was what i wanted to do

i want to do it even if im not good at it, because its just where i want to be, and i feel a real sense of reward for sticking with it

for me, thats one way i can describe the idea of the path with heart

and i echo the sentiment that there are a million paths we can choose, we have more paths to choose from than we have time to walk them, it is no insult to say "this one is not for me"

its an insult to ourselves to walk any other path than the one with heart, which we usually do because we are afraid or we are "after something"

I understand that the religious dimension of the topic certainly adds rinkles, but let's pull it out of that for a moment.

Discretion is one thing. I don't share every aspect of myself in any given environment. Time & Place, and all that. Still and all, I don't like being places where sharing more about myself will lead to rejection. I don't mean because of the setting. Yes, I will get in trouble at work if I share inappropriately about my sex life, but that has less to do about my sexlife than about decorum.

If, in a discussion of one's spiritual life, you don't feel welcome to speak in your own language, without making them wrong, that's another matter.

It really falls to you and how you want to feel. No judgement. But after reading the original post, I immediately thought of this:

Whelp, I sat down and spoke my piece to her.

She seemed mildly disturbed about my lack of Christianity (more of a "how can you possibly be happy without accepting Christ as your saviour?" kind of way), nevertheless tolerant.

She told me that God had spoken directly to her about me and that He'd told her that I had wounds and pain to heal in my life and only God could heal them.

But she did invite me to continue to attend (I promised to give the group a "30 day trial" ha ha ha). I'm 95% sure she's still going to try to evangelize me, but I'm feeling better about the whole thing because she knows now that my Path is not the same as hers. Although I think she may have some challenges with accepting that my Path is the best way for me, at least I have my integrity.

And you both have an opportunity to learn, grow, and practice. At least you do, at the worst, but I hope you both benefit from this. We often learn the most from adversity because we are challenged. I'm proud of you for not taking the easy way.

That's great. I think you have a good opportunity to enjoy some nice fellowship and practice being a Jedi. I always love it when the JWs come to visit me because we sit and talk about Jesus, they try to convert me, but I never sign up. I just like to get that perspective from them every now and then. It helps me have a better appreciation for my own path.

They're going to pray their heads off and it'll be a convert-a-thon for the next 30 days. Good luck xD

I wish I had a dollar for every soul god talked directly to someone about!

Miss_Leah wrote: I will be strong and proud (though not forceful) in my Jedi beliefs. There's no place for me in a group that can't or won't recognize them as a valid. Pretending doesn't help anybody.

Kudos Miss_Leah

"And you both have an opportunity to learn, grow, and practice. At least you do, at the worst, but I hope you both benefit from this. We often learn the most from adversity because we are challenged. I'm proud of you for not taking the easy way"-Senan ( I couldn't have said this better myself )

Everyday we encounter absolutes, life is full of variables and we should try to learn from each other in every instance.

But with that said not everyone recognizes that a two way interchange is possible - their viewpoint is the only viewpoint.

Good luck in your "trial period". Be tolerant and open but also be true to yourself.

CableSteele wrote: That sounds like an awesome group. If you feel a connection with them, I think it would be nice to be able to be open and honest with them. If you just bear your soul and tell them what you just told us, I can't help but believe that they would accept you and honor your honesty. Of course they will no doubt try to convince you that your are wrong, but if you demonstrate your sincerity by seeking their input, you will, at the very least, have a great opportunity to practice the tolerance and understanding of a Jedi. Just a thought.

You sparked a question that you might be able to answer for me.

I have been trying to understand how Christians can adore a genocidal God, who needs to have his son murdered to forgive mankind, instead of just forgiving us outright, while Christians think that is somehow good justice.

As Ingersoll said; 'no man would be fit for heaven who would consent that an innocent person should suffer for his sin.'

Regards
DL

Leah Starspectre wrote: Thanks everyone, for reminding me that being a Jedi means striving for integrity and courage.

I think I'll have a chat with my friend tonight. I'll explain the situation and that my goal was religious discourse/give-and-take of spiritual wisdom, which would include divulging my own beliefs, even when they contradict her own. But if there's no place in her group for discourse, then I'll gracefully decline to attend any further. Same goes if her purpose is to evangelize me and usher me back into the Church.

I will be strong and proud (though not forceful) in my Jedi beliefs. There's no place for me in a group that can't or won't recognize them as a valid. Pretending doesn't help anybody.

I really appreciate you all helping me to remember that.

Atta girl.

BTW, if your girl friend tries to teach you anything about Christianity, you might tell her that her misogynous religion forbids her to teach men about religion and I think that might include a woman teaching a woman as well even though that is not specified in those exact words.

Regards
DL

Since this thread seems to have been resurrected (heh heh, pun intended) I may as well update.

I stopped attending, and the friend seemed to accept it eventually, though I do still get the occasional text from her with a Bible verse or two. But since we're neighbours, I run into her from time to time and it's still all big hugs and chatting. I'm thinking of maybe joining them again at Christmas. So I guess it was a happy "ending"

And as for your comment, DL, I try not to make it my business to tell anybody about what their religion should or shouldn't do/think/say, interpret it for them, or make assumptions about its purpose. While I think the Bible has its flaws, it also has a great amount of wisdom if you're able to see beyond the mythology and try to distill the message (as it is with most religions/faiths).

Professor Dawkins, may I have your autograph ??

Stop using his lines, it makes you sound dumb when using them in front of one so well knowing of him as me.

Greatest-I-am you and Dawkins radiate arrogance. Look at your username. Just tone it down dude, you've been here a week and probably insulted every Abrahamic religion in one sentence.

Greatest-I-am wrote: I have been trying to understand how Christians can adore a genocidal God, who needs to have his son murdered to forgive mankind, instead of just forgiving us outright, while Christians think that is somehow good justice.

Straw Man Fallacy
Substituting a person’s actual position or argument with a distorted, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of the position of the argument

youre never going to defeat the christians by ridiculing a misrepresentation of their beliefs!

if you want to make a dent youve got to ask "why is the christ iconography so enduring? whats so compelling about it and what does it really mean to the people who believe in it?"

what youre doing here is not a good example of critical thinking

This thread doesn't interest me much, but I just saw this on the side-feed thing and it irked my brain

BTW, if your girl friend tries to teach you anything about Christianity, you might tell her that her misogynous religion forbids her to teach men about religion and I think that might include a woman teaching a woman as well even though that is not specified in those exact words.

My understanding is that Leah is also a woman, which (assuming everything you've said is correct), would mean that as both an outsider and a female she would have no authority to give a christian instruction on anything, for the same reasons you submit.


I don't want an answer, I don't care, the inanity is just giving me a brainfreeze for a moment.





Oh, and I am a Christian, although that's got nothing to do with adoring a genocidal god.

That's what the Kult of Khorne is for

Leah Starspectre wrote: Since this thread seems to have been resurrected (heh heh, pun intended) I may as well update.

I stopped attending, and the friend seemed to accept it eventually, though I do still get the occasional text from her with a Bible verse or two. But since we're neighbours, I run into her from time to time and it's still all big hugs and chatting. I'm thinking of maybe joining them again at Christmas. So I guess it was a happy "ending"

And as for your comment, DL, I try not to make it my business to tell anybody about what their religion should or shouldn't do/think/say, interpret it for them, or make assumptions about its purpose. While I think the Bible has its flaws, it also has a great amount of wisdom if you're able to see beyond the mythology and try to distill the message (as it is with most religions/faiths).

True that there is some wisdom in scriptures, that does not excuse that the God Christianity is trying to sell you is a genocidal son murderer.

I am sure you would not follow Hitler so why would you want to get closer to a genocidal God who can cure as easily as kill yet always kills?

This link ends by asking, what kind of God would torture and murder babies and your bible tells us it is the God you are thinking of getting closer to.

I am all for you seeking a God, Gnostic Christianity promotes seeking God, but why would you settle for a baby torturer?

https://vimeo.com/7038401

Regards
DL

Leah Starspectre wrote:
And as for your comment, DL, I try not to make it my business to tell anybody about what their religion should or shouldn't do/think/say, interpret it for them, or make assumptions about its purpose. While I think the Bible has its flaws, it also has a great amount of wisdom if you're able to see beyond the mythology and try to distill the message (as it is with most religions/faiths).

You say that there is wisdom in scriptures and I have agreed, and offer these for you to ponder.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Note how that wisdom goes completely against what you said.

If you are not going to bring your intelligence and good moral sense to Christianity, why in the hell would you want to join a brain dead and immoral homophobic and misogynous religion that believes in talking serpents and donkeys?

Regards
DL

Silas Mercury wrote: Professor Dawkins, may I have your autograph ??

Stop using his lines, it makes you sound dumb when using them in front of one so well knowing of him as me.

Greatest-I-am you and Dawkins radiate arrogance. Look at your username. Just tone it down dude, you've been here a week and probably insulted every Abrahamic religion in one sentence.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Regards
DL

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Greatest-I-am wrote: I have been trying to understand how Christians can adore a genocidal God, who needs to have his son murdered to forgive mankind, instead of just forgiving us outright, while Christians think that is somehow good justice.

Straw Man Fallacy
Substituting a person’s actual position or argument with a distorted, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of the position of the argument

I miss-represent nothing.

Your claim that I do, without showing the where or how, shows how little you know of how to present a claim.

Note that bible quote above. It suggests correcting with love and here you are correcting with hate.

You may not like what I say but this Bishop does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg&feature=em-subs_digest-vrecs

Regards
DL,