Why Not...

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02 Jun 2016 17:39 #243148 by
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My reason is merely the words by humans that tell me what some omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator of mine is thinking. I don't believe that if god exists that an intermediary is necessary. The myths of the bible tell me what the men who wrote the books thought. God is supposed to be omniscient, so, I would infer that god knew everything that was going to happen when it did. He knew that Adam and Eve would betray his command, he knew that Lucifer would rebel, he knew that he would sacrifice himself for his own forgiveness of all of mankind's sins to make way for humans to come back to him. He created us "broken" and commands us to fix ourselves or else face eternal damnation. Yet, he loves us? So much that he would torment us forever over something that could be fixed within the blink of an eye? I think that if such a god exists, I don't wish to know him or have anything to do with him. But, I also think that, if I could believe that god is real, he would be smiling and enjoying the fact that we are becoming more advanced over time and using the faculties he built within our brains to do so. To create something and command one's creations to not use the tools you provided is ... well, I don't have the words for how confounding that is for me.

Jesus, on the other hand, I think, may have been a real person who had a divine cosmic experience. I think he may have used that experience to attempt to bring his fellow human beings together as one and love one another in the sincerest possible way. I don't believe in salvation through any other person, but through my own efforts.

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07 Jun 2016 12:42 #243768 by
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Yeshua said that if i found out the truth that it would set me free , and it did , but when i shared that bliss with other christians they started making it more difficult for me and started with all these does and donts so i gave up on being a christian and became me again.


You shouldn't judge Christianity by the people who supposedly follow it. "Christian" just means "Christ-like". If those people don't understand that there is nothing you have to do, then they don't understand Christ.

It's a religion based on fear.


If that's what you think, then your understanding of the Word is poor (or at least, someone lied to you). Christianity is based in Love. I could get into great detail, but I think that would be more of a personal discussion. PM me if you wish.

He created us "broken" and commands us to fix ourselves or else face eternal damnation.


Not true. We were made perfect, with free will, which includes the decision not to follow him. He did not make this world (or us) screwed up the way we are. WE did that. We are not set out to "fix" ourselves, but only to trust in Christ that he is the only one that can.

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07 Jun 2016 12:47 #243769 by
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Streen wrote:

Yeshua said that if i found out the truth that it would set me free , and it did , but when i shared that bliss with other christians they started making it more difficult for me and started with all these does and donts so i gave up on being a christian and became me again.


You shouldn't judge Christianity by the people who supposedly follow it. "Christian" just means "Christ-like". If those people don't understand that there is nothing you have to do, then they don't understand Christ.

It's a religion based on fear.


If that's what you think, then your understanding of the Word is poor (or at least, someone lied to you). Christianity is based in Love. I could get into great detail, but I think that would be more of a personal discussion. PM me if you wish.

He created us "broken" and commands us to fix ourselves or else face eternal damnation.


Not true. We were made perfect, with free will, which includes the decision not to follow him. He did not make this world (or us) screwed up the way we are. WE did that. We are not set out to "fix" ourselves, but only to trust in Christ that he is the only one that can.


Like i said i am set free :cheer:

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07 Jun 2016 15:30 - 07 Jun 2016 15:55 #243793 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Why Not...
to me it seems obvious that the bible is not literally true - like, duh

i mean there are historically accurate pieces in it, sure

it is in part a historical document, but there was never a ship that really did hold two of every single animal on earth, thats just silly

there may have been some ship somewhere near some place that was underwater, and there might even have been some animals on it i dont know, but it wasnt the literal origin of the rainbow and all the rest with lions and tigers and bears

to my way of thinking, the components of religious belief which are TRUE are the parts which result in personal and collective transformation - the CHANGE is real, the psychological growth into a more balanced and perceptive human being is real

but the various literary devices which are used to direct this process are almost superfluous; theyre tools rather than facts; ideas that channel perspective and perception so that the human BEING can mature

not historical FACTS in the same way as which of the founding fathers were present at the drafting of the Constitution
(many of them were DEISTS btw - the misconception that christian people created america to be a wholly christian nation is false. there were christians who assumed such but there were quite a few others who did not want america to be in any way religiously biased: look up founding "fathers deist" and "jefferson bible" to start)

when people confuse this, they change something that is powerful and -- well, "divine", into something dogmatic and tyrannical: from hallowed to hollow

next, it seems obvious to me that if god created me, and he knew everything in the world, and also everything about me, and he loved me, then he would know that im not able to believe what christians seem to believe, and that would be cool

he would actually say "you did great son, im proud of you" without me ever having to accept some rumor about some guy who could raise the dead, and died, and is still alive, but gone

watching us, but not here with us

well he is here but he isnt here; hes here with us but he isnt like, RIGHT HERE

see what i mean?

if i give a kid a box of crayons, i dont expect him to paint the sistine chapel; i expect him to come up with some awkward $h!x that MAYBE looks good under a magnet on the refrigerator, and i will be proud of him that he did it

i dont expect him to come up with a something that is way beyond the tools that i gave to him

when i read the bible, jesus said that his followers are supposed to be performing miracles the way that he did

no one is

people pretend to
and people point to things that are "miraculous" and say "thats jesus" or "thats god" but it seems to me that those sorts of things happen equally to all people of all faiths, and so either christians are wrong about these miracles being from god, or at least wrong about what god is and how god works

jesus also told his disciples that his return would happen in their life times - which it obviously didnt

its been 2000 years, and every minute of that time there have been untold multitudes expecting the sky to part and a trumpet to sound ANY MINUTE

for 2000 years!

there's also the fact that so many of the people in the church are just plain wrong about so much, generally speaking

and so many of them are so incredibly judgemental, and opinionated, and downright hostile, that i cant help but to think "whatever theyre doing, it isnt good, and i dont want it screwing me up the way its screwing them up"

and then theres this http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/june/creflo-dollars-board-apologizes-for-plane-fundraising-video.html

thats one in an endless line of confidence artists scamming the shirts off of gullible audiences all over the world, and i cant help but think "if you people knew what the heck you were doing, you would have this shot in check by now"

but we're still arguing about dinosaur bones and bathrooms and its fine if you cant keep up, go at whatever pace you need to, but let go of the idea that you have any business telling anyone else they're going the wrong way

People are complicated.
Last edit: 07 Jun 2016 15:55 by OB1Shinobi.
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07 Jun 2016 15:45 #243796 by
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Christianity is not based on fear of god, but on fear of death. The whole purpose of heaven is so that there is something after, for those too scared to transcend and become as one with the Force.

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07 Jun 2016 15:54 #243799 by rugadd
Replied by rugadd on topic Why Not...
I felt the presence of the divine and it scared me.

It wasn't until later that I discovered the divine can be found everywhere.

I didn't go back for political reasons.

I won't go back now because I am a Jedi of this Temple and that is all the label I need right now as far as religion is concerned.

rugadd
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07 Jun 2016 21:09 #243853 by
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Streen wrote:

He created us "broken" and commands us to fix ourselves or else face eternal damnation.


Not true. We were made perfect, with free will, which includes the decision not to follow him. He did not make this world (or us) screwed up the way we are. WE did that. We are not set out to "fix" ourselves, but only to trust in Christ that he is the only one that can.


Though we "messed up" in the beginning, for an eternal divine being to cast out his "perfect" creation from some awesome garden, and as an omniscient being, he knew it would happen and could have precluded it from the get-go. So, he did create us flawed, or broken, or ill (whichever you choose) and, in order to rejoin him, we have to make ourselves better. A piece of fruit? Really? Why did he make it to begin with? Maybe god was the one who tempted us to eat of the forbidden tree.

Like most creation myths, there are many things wrong with it and doesn't explain the world very well anymore.

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07 Jun 2016 21:32 #243854 by rugadd
Replied by rugadd on topic Why Not...
One can try to explain "God's" will all they want, or call "him" out, but divinity by definition is beyond our ability to understand so when you do, remember you can not possible be right about it.

I for one have no interest in partaking in arguments that can't be fathomed adequately, let alone won. If I am going to shake my fist at anyone it will be myself.

Thankfully, I'm mostly over that too.

rugadd
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07 Jun 2016 21:35 - 07 Jun 2016 22:02 #243855 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Why Not...

Luthien wrote: Like most creation myths, there are many things wrong with it and doesn't explain the world very well anymore.


im not sure anyone really knows what it means anymore

ive heard that its likely a fusion of at least two other stories which were likely integrated as a result of a cultural/religious syncretism that happened before written language, but i dont claim to know

i recall someone here at the temple mentioning that as well, but i wouldnt be able to say a name

personally i think its a story of mans evolutionary leap to higher order cognition - like we learned to compare things to each other and make abstract value judgements, and thats where the "knowledge of good and evil" originated and also when we lost our "innocence" and saw our "nakedness"

Prof. J Peterson likes to mention that human eyesight evolved to a great extent to detect the ripening of fruit and the movement of snakes

and i mean he has got the research of evolutionary biologists as a foundation for the position so whether there is a relationship between that and the story or not, it is definitely interesting

but anyway this is a great example of where i think that a literal interpretation misses the point

but lol who am i? just some dude on the internets

People are complicated.
Last edit: 07 Jun 2016 22:02 by OB1Shinobi.
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07 Jun 2016 21:54 #243860 by
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Indeed. I don't know the original intention, nor do I care anymore about it. The bible is a collection of books written by men with imperfect understanding. I don't put too much stock in the reality of myths, but, rather, the lessons behind them. Whether or not god exists is beyond any understanding I can muster. It's all speculation for me until it can be proven true, historical accuracy/inaccuracy aside.

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