The Field, and Lynn McTaggert

Ty wrote: but I do think that there should be a bit of a foundation in science somewhere in the IP.

Why?

Ty wrote: There is nothing in this universe which cannot be understood through the laws of mathematics, though we may not be able to understand it at this time.

Hmm, so, because currently, we can say this about everything we know, this must be true about that which we still have to learn about?

I dont think that logic stands up, lol...

Only because, you dont know that it is true... You can surmise, sure, and I would agree that it does seem logical...

But, it would seem a very unscientific thing to state, isnt it?

Jedi are not about mysticism. A recurring theme in all of the SW literature is they are perceived that way by those who are ignorant of the way things truly work. The Jedi combine some spiritual things with knowledge, and expanding their minds to be able to perceive the world around them, but you could, in the SW universe, prove the force exists through science. There were machines that used the force, and detected it.

I am unfamilar with the fiction, outside of the movies..

How did they prove the force, scientifically?

I have an idea what you mean, but, I dont want to presume...

There is no reason it should be different in our world. We should be willing to admit we do not know what the force is, instead of being wishy-washy and saying that it's something that is individual to each person, because it isn't. If something exists outside of yourself, then it has its own characteristics and properties that make it an objectively separate thing. It may be perceived differently by different people, but it does not actually change just because they see it differently. It's similar to the old hindu parable of the blind men holding different parts of the elephant.

We do say it is individual... And, means something different to each person...

But, what we mean is, that we each experience it differntly...

You know what hot sauce is, right?

Well, lets you and I keep tasting hotter and hotter sauces until one of us says "Its too hot", and the other says, "No, this is more like salsa, lets keep tasting"....

We will all experience it differently, and that is how, and why, we say it is individual...

Is what I experience, and 'according to hoyle' force? Well, to me it is...

Caution, language gets rough....
Part of the message is hidden for the guests. Please log in or register to see it.

There is clearly some kind of energy that pervades everything. We do not know exactly what it is, or how to find it quite yet, but we will. Eventually, we will be able to see it, examine it, manipulate it. We do not know if it has consciousness, but based on what we know of consciousness, that requires a brain, so that is unlikely.

Why is it a bad thing to point all this out?

I dont think anyone said it was...

Im having fun...

steamboat28 wrote:

Ty wrote: but I do think that there should be a bit of a foundation in science somewhere in the IP.

Why?

Why not?

Do you feel it has less value than anything else in the IP?

Is it held with some disdain within these halls?

It seems more than a few would like it to be a part of the IP, so there is a demand.

So the why answers itself

Certainly the scientific method is a better baseline than hiding behind the "Truth from a certain point of view." or more ambiguous "personal experience."



Or is it because it is more demanding upon ones theories, thoughts, and beliefs?

One thing I can say I have noticed as a trend in Totjo, there isnt a good amount of skepticism or peer review in regards to growth.

So how can one say one has really grown at all? Especially within the paradigm of Totjo, or the lessons of the IP?

steamboat28 wrote:

Ty wrote: but I do think that there should be a bit of a foundation in science somewhere in the IP.

Why?

Because, simply put, the scientific method is the best tool we have for gaining knowledge on new topics.



Jestor, the logic stands up. Just because those before Sir Isaac Newton could not have done calculus, because it was not known until Newton invented it, did not mean the mathematical truths that Newton discovered were not always there. Mathematics are discovered much the same way a glacier over the next hill would have been discovered by early explorers.

In the Star Wars fiction, the Force actually was a field of energy. There were some races that used it as an energy source, similar to the way we use nuclear power.
Other races built scientific equipment to measure the force, which are generally employed to find Jedi and murder them, in most of the canon. The Force in the SW literature is not alive, and it does not have a conscious will. It is an energy field that pervades most living things. I say most, because there are actually some very explicit exceptions.
I couldn't tell you how they proved the force existed scientifically, because a book about that would have been boring as hell, so no one wrote one. But they certainly had to have done, before they could do all the other things they did.
Making machines that use the force requires knowledge of science as well as the Force, and so would have needed to fit the Force into a scientific framework.

Which isn't hard. People here often seem to think of science almost as a boogeyman, but all science is, is a way of thinking. It dictates that we be open to any possibility until we have proof for one over another, and then to go with what seems most likely. It dictates that if we declare something to be the truth, then it must be verifiably the truth by other parties. It dictates that we have evidence for claims, and that we answer questions as best we know how by seeking answers, instead of handwaving and saying it is the fault of a higher power, the supernatural, or the force.

Science does not refute anything without proof, but it also makes no claims on anything until it has some way of examining it. But too many people take this to mean that because science cannot currently be used to examine something, we never will be able to. This is plainly a rediculous assertion based on the historical record. We didn't always have telescopes, microscopes, or the CERN supercollider. But we do now, and all of these things help us see something we never could have dreamed of before they existed.

You don't have to say that the force is scientific in nature, because that's a misnomer. But the best way to know something about anything is through scientific enquiry, since, as humans, our "gut notions" are extremely fallible. We can't even trust our memories, for heaven's sake! People can be made to remember things that never happened, or forget things that did, and people do things like remember dreams as reality all the time. If you want to be certain of something, the best way we currently know of is through scientific inquiry.

Because of the Doctrine's structure and the way of the Jedi as a whole, throughout the books and other philosophies that are similar, science should be included- and not junk science, but real science. If anyone actually cares about the many parts of the doctrine and the fictional Jedi order's principles, a great portion of it was teaching- and to teach, you must know. To know, you must have first sought out that knowledge.

Until someone can come up with a way that works better than science (it sure as hell isn't "it feels right to me, therefore it must be true"), science should be included in the IP.

Where can I find out more about this thing called... science! :lol:

It's not magic or anything, its just good process for describing the parameters of repeat-ability. It does not handle complexity too neatly, and the brain from which we seem to experience is very complex on its own as a physical structure, not to mention its capabilities regarding awareness. Science is a great tool to forge pieces of a larger puzzle, and the more we have, when put in the right order, shows as much more then any single piece on its own. Unfortunately its so complex that by comparison even large pieces put together can deceive as to the real image it is part of. Now I dont know what we are talking about either!!!!

Ty wrote:

steamboat28 wrote:

Ty wrote: but I do think that there should be a bit of a foundation in science somewhere in the IP.

Why?

Because, simply put, the scientific method is the best tool we have for gaining knowledge on new topics.

No disagreement on this point...

Just sayin'....

Jestor, the logic stands up. Just because those before Sir Isaac Newton could not have done calculus, because it was not known until Newton invented it, did not mean the mathematical truths that Newton discovered were not always there. Mathematics are discovered much the same way a glacier over the next hill would have been discovered by early explorers.

It dictates that we be open to any possibility until we have proof for one over another

Science does not refute anything without proof, but it also makes no claims on anything until it has some way of examining it. But too many people take this to mean that because science cannot currently be used to examine something, we never will be able to. This is plainly a rediculous assertion based on the historical record.

Well, my point, backed by a couple of your quotes, was that because the "XYZ method" (of a science that can shed further light on the questions we can't yet answer, or be aware of the particulars of the problem solving ) is not yet understood, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist....

I wouldn't say Newton invented calculus, but rather, defined, and brought something already in existence (that's what you said, right?) into the light....

In the Star Wars fiction, the Force actually was a field of energy. There were some races that used it as an energy source, similar to the way we use nuclear power.
Other races built scientific equipment to measure the force, which are generally employed to find Jedi and murder them, in most of the canon. The Force in the SW literature is not alive, and it does not have a conscious will. It is an energy field that pervades most living things. I say most, because there are actually some very explicit exceptions.
I couldn't tell you how they proved the force existed scientifically, because a book about that would have been boring as hell, so no one wrote one. But they certainly had to have done, before they could do all the other things they did.
Making machines that use the force requires knowledge of science as well as the Force, and so would have needed to fit the Force into a scientific framework.

Well...

Its fiction, lol...

So, for all we know, the machines that "used" the force for an energy source just didn't have the technology to measure another form of yet undiscovered radiation..

Plus, its fiction ....

We can't argue science, and use the fiction as the bar we are shooting for...

My thinking, anyway...

Which isn't hard. People here often seem to think of science almost as a boogeyman, but all science is, is a way of thinking. It dictates that we be open to any possibility until we have proof for one over another, and then to go with what seems most likely. It dictates that if we declare something to be the truth, then it must be verifiably the truth by other parties. It dictates that we have evidence for claims, and that we answer questions as best we know how by seeking answers, instead of handwaving and saying it is the fault of a higher power, the supernatural, or the force.

No, we don't think science a boogyman, but, we don't discount our feeling, and understandings, just because science has yet to.prove it...

I'm gonna throw Newton's name in here, and say like his defining calculus....

We just haven't defined it....

As your next quote shows...

Science does not refute anything without proof, but it also makes no claims on anything until it has some way of examining it. But too many people take this to mean that because science cannot currently be used to examine something, we never will be able to. This is plainly a rediculous assertion based on the historical record. We didn't always have telescopes, microscopes, or the CERN supercollider. But we do now, and all of these things help us see something we never could have dreamed of before they existed.

Khaos wrote: Certainly the scientific method is a better baseline than hiding behind the "Truth from a certain point of view." or more ambiguous "personal experience."

Ty wrote: Because, simply put, the scientific method is the best tool we have for gaining knowledge on new topics.

No, I mean why specifically in the IP? Are we assuming that a mostly-adult membership on a website on the INTERNET doesn't have access to any other ways of understanding science than the IP? Would you teach science in a school for the performing arts, or a seminary? Should basic science be (re)taught in programs for plumbing and welding certificates?

I'm not discounting science (except to admit that it has its limits). I'm simply saying that the IP is the place for foundational teachings of TOTJO-style Jediism, not a remedial chemistry course or a physics lecture.

steamboat28 wrote:

Khaos wrote: Certainly the scientific method is a better baseline than hiding behind the "Truth from a certain point of view." or more ambiguous "personal experience."

Ty wrote: Because, simply put, the scientific method is the best tool we have for gaining knowledge on new topics.

No, I mean why specifically in the IP? Are we assuming that a mostly-adult membership on a website on the INTERNET doesn't have access to any other ways of understanding science than the IP? Would you teach science in a school for the performing arts, or a seminary? Should basic science be (re)taught in programs for plumbing and welding certificates?

I'm not discounting science (except to admit that it has its limits). I'm simply saying that the IP is the place for foundational teachings of TOTJO-style Jediism, not a remedial chemistry course or a physics lecture.

And why when I say something "for dummies" when we talk about the sciences...

Believe it or not, I've already had someone watching this thread (jokingly?) somewhat say that if we brought in science that was too difficult, then they weren't sure they would understand....

And, that does go for me too, lol, seriously....

I didn't study science past high school, and back then, the cold war was wrapping up, cell phones were only for the rich, and Pluto was still a planet....

So kept that in mind....

Then, I kept my brain in a chemical coma periodically throught the time,

Not a lot of self improvement going on for me then,but O.M.G., the experiences I had, lol..

The IP is not for in-depth study, could we put something more credible next to, or instead of, McTaggart, I guess so, :lol:...

I'm not even strong on the sciences in my apprenticeships, I'll leave that to brighter minds...

I teach, perception, acceptance, love, laughs, and cookies... So sayth, jestor...

Just not necessarily in that order...

Maybe a little science too...

Jestor wrote :

The IP is not for in-depth study, could we put something more credible next to, or instead of, McTaggart, I guess so, :lol:...

Now there's a thought ....

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:blink:

... I need to go to the toilet.

What always amazes me is how so many people think that the IP is our doctrine and what we live by.

It is not. The IP is a tool to open people’s minds to new ways of thinking, new ideas affording people the opportunity to explore things they may have never considered before.

If anyone is confused as to what the Doctrine is (the doctrine we strive to live by), here is a Link to Doctrine

I think if people spent as much time discussing the lessons in the IP as much as they discuss how they would like things replace or have their opinions acted on then the individual might make more progress towards understanding.