Meeting of the Clergy 23 April 2016 18:00 UTC

Talking to some members of the temple, I came to the conclusion that we should not get terms of other religions; then either we have to choose very general terms or create others. I believe that there are already enough people thinking about it and I'm already a lot of work, without much time to think about it. So as soon as I have any idea I post here. Still I would like to make another observation.
I think the new names should not have things like colors, white monk, white priest, white mage etc. (I know many would like white or gray wizard ); this can cause confusion, causing people to think we just have a good side. We know this is not true.
Another thing, we avoid grandiose terms, in great pomp. We have to be humble people, nothing to be looking for honors and glories, would be a very stupid move in my opinion. Not that anyone has done it, but only advice.
I have an idea here that such:

Lissensed Minister => Minister
Deacon => Mentor
Priest => Monk
Bishop => Senior monk
"I monk a neutral term"

If they do not like it, fine, but just came to mind.
Another idea would be to create an ending to identify degrees, but without titles, as in Japanese for pronouns: Sam, Sempai, Sama etc. May only appear as a minister and just make markings to identify the degrees.
I say this because I think that within a religion, people seek titles for self glorification. It would be great if we could dodge it, it's just a change of names, not functions and structures, so in my opinion is a matter of small weight and I could abolish all titles in the end it only serve to know the function each and study time.

Br. John wrote: Here's a scheme I've been thinking about.

Licensed Minister - Licensed Minister
Deacon - Ordained Minister
Priest - Senior Minister
Bishop - Chaplain

I'm not in the clergy but am hoping to be someday. I Br. John's above suggestion the best of those that have been made so far.

If the idea is to get rid of the connotations of the current clerical ranks without applying new negative connotations to new clerical ranks, why not get rid of the ranks altogether?

You could have:

Seminarian ---> Seminarian
Licensed Minister ---> Licensed Minister

And then simply list on the left bar under the user's picture whether they hold a "A. Div", "B. Div", etc.

No need to overcomplicate things.

Manu wrote:
And then simply list on the left bar under the user's picture whether they hold a "A. Div", "B. Div", etc.

I'm sensing a theme of confusion on this point. The degree scheme is separate from the Clergy, almost entirely.

Jamie Stick wrote:

Manu wrote:
And then simply list on the left bar under the user's picture whether they hold a "A. Div", "B. Div", etc.

I'm sensing a theme of confusion on this point. The degree scheme is separate from the Clergy, almost entirely.

You are probably right

I'll shut up now.

Br. John wrote: Here's a scheme I've been thinking about.

Licensed Minister - Licensed Minister
Deacon - Ordained Minister
Priest - Senior Minister
Bishop - Chaplain

There are also the excellent generic terms Celebrant and Officiant (which are easily combined or interchanged with Minister whenever needed to avoid confusion).

All are still 'Ministers' and would state as such for any government license etc.

Pastor - President of the Clergy
Vice Pastor - Vice President of the Clergy

And yes organizations can have more than one President. For some time I've thought Jestor should be President of Member Affairs, The Pastor should be President of Clerical Affairs and I'd change from President to President of Governmental and Legal Affairs. That's another subject of course - but we can have co-presidents.

If this was a voting thing, I would vote for this

Rick D wrote:

Br. John wrote: Here's a scheme I've been thinking about.

Licensed Minister - Licensed Minister
Deacon - Ordained Minister
Priest - Senior Minister
Bishop - Chaplain

There are also the excellent generic terms Celebrant and Officiant (which are easily combined or interchanged with Minister whenever needed to avoid confusion).

All are still 'Ministers' and would state as such for any government license etc.

Pastor - President of the Clergy
Vice Pastor - Vice President of the Clergy

And yes organizations can have more than one President. For some time I've thought Jestor should be President of Member Affairs, The Pastor should be President of Clerical Affairs and I'd change from President to President of Governmental and Legal Affairs. That's another subject of course - but we can have co-presidents.

If this was a voting thing, I would vote for this

I second that for sure.

I third John's suggestion.

MadHatter wrote:

Rick D wrote:

Br. John wrote: Here's a scheme I've been thinking about.

Licensed Minister - Licensed Minister
Deacon - Ordained Minister
Priest - Senior Minister
Bishop - Chaplain

There are also the excellent generic terms Celebrant and Officiant (which are easily combined or interchanged with Minister whenever needed to avoid confusion).

All are still 'Ministers' and would state as such for any government license etc.

Pastor - President of the Clergy
Vice Pastor - Vice President of the Clergy

And yes organizations can have more than one President. For some time I've thought Jestor should be President of Member Affairs, The Pastor should be President of Clerical Affairs and I'd change from President to President of Governmental and Legal Affairs. That's another subject of course - but we can have co-presidents.

If this was a voting thing, I would vote for this

I second that for sure.

Me too ..or is it fourth :laugh:

As very much a 'lay' member of the Temple I appreciate the opportunity to witness this discussion. Br. John's suggestion is probably the least provocative and I would have no problem if that became the new format. At the same time it is also a little too functional . . . 'dry' if you like . . . for my tastes, at least.

It makes sense to have 'Licensed Minister' remain the basic clergy rank for all the reasons already stated: legal, and outside TOTJO recognition. Could we not have a little more fun with the more senior titles though? All senior titles would by definition also be Licensed Ministers for legal purposes.

It's not my place to say but here are some alternative titles to throw into the ring:

Licensed Minister - Licensed Minister
Cleric - Ordained Minister / Deacon
Prior - Senior Minister / Priest
Paladin - Bishop
Vice-Chaplain - Vice-Pastor
Chaplain - Pastor

Love the sound of Paladin

murr....I wouldn't use Paladin. I do love the name but....it sounds too....pretentious. :dry:

Loudzoo wrote: All senior titles would by definition also be Licensed Ministers for legal purposes.

Trust me when I tell you that, legally, you do not want the senior clergy to be Licensed Ministers. You want them to be Ordained. There is a profound difference that affects a lot of legal liberties and protections worldwide.

steamboat28 wrote:

Loudzoo wrote: All senior titles would by definition also be Licensed Ministers for legal purposes.

Trust me when I tell you that, legally, you do not want the senior clergy to be Licensed Ministers. You want them to be Ordained. There is a profound difference that affects a lot of legal liberties and protections worldwide.

Thanks Steam - learn a new thing everyday and all that . . . I can see why confessional privilege (for instance) would be easier to defend with ordained, rather than licensed ministers.

Although the senior titles beyond Licensed Minister would, by definition, be Ordained Ministers too, from the perspective of those legal liberties and protections it makes a lot of sense for the 'ranking' nomenclature to start with Licensed Minister, then Ordained Minister.

Nothing will change with the legal powers or ordination. The Rev. will still be there, as will the OCP at the end. None of that stuff is going to change.

You have nothing to fear in that repsect, or at all.

I have a feeling that my thoughts would get split off into a separate topic so I have preempted that by Starting a New Thread .

I'm hoping to get all the subissions for names to the Synod today, so if you have any more please post them here.

I would recommend something along the lines of

Seminarians remain Seminarians.
Licensed Ministers become Junior Priests (this one I really don't know on, honestly).
Deacons become Priests.
Priests become Senior Priests.
Bishops become High Priests.

I know I'm not clergy but 'Pastor' could be 'Elder'. Title used in various religious groups of different backgrounds.

Names have now been submitted to Synod

Thanks for all the ideas