Meeting of the Clergy 23 April 2016 18:00 UTC

Trisskar wrote: I was asked to explain my reasoning behind the Leveled Preiets ranks. Thought id share it here....

I just looked up the Latin Name for each color And then used the common colors seen in druidry and other pagan circles.

Deacon ---> Lvl I - Brunis (Brown) Priest/Priestess
Priest ---> Lvl II - Viride (Green) Priest/Priestess
Bishop ---> Lvl III Album (White) Priest/Priestess

Brown being the Earth and Soil in which seeds grow from

Green being the foliage and growth of plants and life

White being the usual "Purity" symbolism it usually holds

---

Which, Depending on who you talk to ---- Is just another level of beginner In other words one went from one level of begginer to another level. In which case the White will eventually return to brown with the hardship of training ((White Belt Japanese theory))

I enjoy latin, and I like the way how you use changing trades of a living organism inside ranks! It also reminds me of the Maiar in the Tolkien series. If there was only a blue rank in it..

I do like that Triss

[Hr]

I just wanted to clarify that I (and I'm sure others who have spoken out in regards to this change) am not against it changing. I simply just want whatever the change is to be relateable to the outside world. I happen to really like some of the suggestions which have come through and like that quite a few of them are far more spiritually significant than the currently suggested "guide". Change is good, just make it the right change, for the right reason, and something that can be meaningful to everyone, not just a few in our organization.

Aqua wrote:

Trisskar wrote: I was asked to explain my reasoning behind the Leveled Preiets ranks. Thought id share it here....

I just looked up the Latin Name for each color And then used the common colors seen in druidry and other pagan circles.

Deacon ---> Lvl I - Brunis (Brown) Priest/Priestess
Priest ---> Lvl II - Viride (Green) Priest/Priestess
Bishop ---> Lvl III Album (White) Priest/Priestess

Brown being the Earth and Soil in which seeds grow from

Green being the foliage and growth of plants and life

White being the usual "Purity" symbolism it usually holds

---

Which, Depending on who you talk to ---- Is just another level of beginner In other words one went from one level of begginer to another level. In which case the White will eventually return to brown with the hardship of training ((White Belt Japanese theory))

I enjoy latin, and I like the way how you use changing trades of a living organism inside ranks! It also reminds me of the Maiar in the Tolkien series. If there was only a blue rank in it..

haha! It also reminds me of the wheel of time series they use colors as rank. It is influential to my own groups rank system (IE: Green Magi, Blue Magi, Red Magi....) But thats my group. I thought Priest fit this temple better with the basic "Earth/life" colors to match.

Trisskar wrote: I was asked to explain my reasoning behind the Leveled Preiets ranks. Thought id share it here....

I just looked up the Latin Name for each color And then used the common colors seen in druidry and other pagan circles.

Deacon ---> Lvl I - Brunis (Brown) Priest/Priestess
Priest ---> Lvl II - Viride (Green) Priest/Priestess
Bishop ---> Lvl III Album (White) Priest/Priestess

Brown being the Earth and Soil in which seeds grow from

Green being the foliage and growth of plants and life

White being the usual "Purity" symbolism it usually holds

---

Which, Depending on who you talk to ---- Is just another level of beginner In other words one went from one level of begginer to another level. In which case the White will eventually return to brown with the hardship of training ((White Belt Japanese theory))

For what its worth, this totally has my vote.
Nice Job!

Trisskar wrote:

Deacon ---> Lvl I - Brunis (Brown) Priest/Priestess
Priest ---> Lvl II - Viride (Green) Priest/Priestess
Bishop ---> Lvl III Album (White) Priest/Priestess

"White priest" has its own connotations that, ironically, are Christian in nature.

steamboat28 wrote:

Trisskar wrote:

Deacon ---> Lvl I - Brunis (Brown) Priest/Priestess
Priest ---> Lvl II - Viride (Green) Priest/Priestess
Bishop ---> Lvl III Album (White) Priest/Priestess

"White priest" has its own connotations that, ironically, are Christian in nature.

As you yourself have so often pointed out for other subjects.

White Priest has many historical backgrounds. Including religions Before Christianity.

Don't like White. Make it blue then. *Shrugs*

Let's look at religions that don't have clergy. Let's look at some of the new thought religions. Please keep in mind that when we decide these terms for our purposes when our clergy is registering for hospital visits, to conduct marriages and prison ministry - for example - we can still use the term minister since it's commonly understood so that's not a problem.

We could also have only one level of clergy but have certifications and continuing education certificates. So all Ministers would become Guides (still Ministers for legal purposes) but they'd be:

Certified Marriage Celebrant
Certified Funeral Celebrant
Certified Spiritual Counselor

Doctor Most common: Doctor of Divinity (D.o.D.) or Doctor of Metaphysics (D.o.M.)
Counselor
Life coach
Healing practitioner
Religious Science Practitioner

Let's be creative.

And I urge the use of Chaplain for the highest trained and well versed clergy. The armed forces uses the term irrespective of the religion of the Chaplain. It's very generic and there are even Humanist Chaplains and Charlie Chaplains.

Br. John wrote: Let's look at religions that don't have clergy. Let's look at some of the new thought religions. Please keep in mind that when we decide these terms for our purposes when our clergy is registering for hospital visits, to conduct marriages and prison ministry - for example - we can still use the term minister since it's commonly understood so that's not a problem.

I still hate the word "guide", but as long as I can call myself a minister here and in meatspace, I'd concede for the sake of sanity. This isn't worth killing each other over. I just want to be able to say why I'm in a place (hospital, wedding chapel) without having to annoy a busy hospital receptionist/secretary who doesn't care about our beliefs and just wants to get things done. They shouldn't have to "be curious" to get the point.

We could also have only one level of clergy but have certifications and continuing education certificates. So all Ministers would become Guides (still Ministers for legal purposes) but they'd be:

Certified Marriage Celebrant
Certified Funeral Celebrant
Certified Spiritual Counselor

Doctor Most common: Doctor of Divinity (D.o.D.) or Doctor of Metaphysics (D.o.M.)
Counselor
Life coach
Healing practitioner
Religious Science Practitioner

And the system mentioned here actually feels good. I wonder how much extra work it would be for the folks in charge to keep a handle on all of those gnarly certifications and things though. The number of them seems like it can get a little hairy. Where's Edan with the spreadsheet? :woohoo: :whistle: (I might actually volunteer... on the distant chance we decide to do something so different from what we're already doing.)

And I urge the use of Chaplain for the highest trained and well versed clergy. The armed forces uses the term irrespective of the religion of the Chaplain. It's very generic and there are even Humanist Chaplains and Charlie Chaplains.

I can get on board with that

Br. John wrote: ...It's very generic and there are even Humanist Chaplains ...

There are no military Humanist Chaplains. (something I'm upset about)

Is Chaplain used outside the military though?

Chaplains serve in hospitals as well.

I don't hate Chaplain.

Talking to some members of the temple, I came to the conclusion that we should not get terms of other religions; then either we have to choose very general terms or create others. I believe that there are already enough people thinking about it and I'm already a lot of work, without much time to think about it. So as soon as I have any idea I post here. Still I would like to make another observation.
I think the new names should not have things like colors, white monk, white priest, white mage etc. (I know many would like white or gray wizard ); this can cause confusion, causing people to think we just have a good side. We know this is not true.
Another thing, we avoid grandiose terms, in great pomp. We have to be humble people, nothing to be looking for honors and glories, would be a very stupid move in my opinion. Not that anyone has done it, but only advice.
I have an idea here that such:

Lissensed Minister => Minister
Deacon => Mentor
Priest => Monk
Bishop => Senior monk
"I monk a neutral term"

If they do not like it, fine, but just came to mind.
Another idea would be to create an ending to identify degrees, but without titles, as in Japanese for pronouns: Sam, Sempai, Sama etc. May only appear as a minister and just make markings to identify the degrees.
I say this because I think that within a religion, people seek titles for self glorification. It would be great if we could dodge it, it's just a change of names, not functions and structures, so in my opinion is a matter of small weight and I could abolish all titles in the end it only serve to know the function each and study time.

Br. John wrote: Here's a scheme I've been thinking about.

Licensed Minister - Licensed Minister
Deacon - Ordained Minister
Priest - Senior Minister
Bishop - Chaplain

I'm not in the clergy but am hoping to be someday. I Br. John's above suggestion the best of those that have been made so far.

If the idea is to get rid of the connotations of the current clerical ranks without applying new negative connotations to new clerical ranks, why not get rid of the ranks altogether?

You could have:

Seminarian ---> Seminarian
Licensed Minister ---> Licensed Minister

And then simply list on the left bar under the user's picture whether they hold a "A. Div", "B. Div", etc.

No need to overcomplicate things.

Manu wrote:
And then simply list on the left bar under the user's picture whether they hold a "A. Div", "B. Div", etc.

I'm sensing a theme of confusion on this point. The degree scheme is separate from the Clergy, almost entirely.

Jamie Stick wrote:

Manu wrote:
And then simply list on the left bar under the user's picture whether they hold a "A. Div", "B. Div", etc.

I'm sensing a theme of confusion on this point. The degree scheme is separate from the Clergy, almost entirely.

You are probably right

I'll shut up now.

Br. John wrote: Here's a scheme I've been thinking about.

Licensed Minister - Licensed Minister
Deacon - Ordained Minister
Priest - Senior Minister
Bishop - Chaplain

There are also the excellent generic terms Celebrant and Officiant (which are easily combined or interchanged with Minister whenever needed to avoid confusion).

All are still 'Ministers' and would state as such for any government license etc.

Pastor - President of the Clergy
Vice Pastor - Vice President of the Clergy

And yes organizations can have more than one President. For some time I've thought Jestor should be President of Member Affairs, The Pastor should be President of Clerical Affairs and I'd change from President to President of Governmental and Legal Affairs. That's another subject of course - but we can have co-presidents.

If this was a voting thing, I would vote for this

Rick D wrote:

Br. John wrote: Here's a scheme I've been thinking about.

Licensed Minister - Licensed Minister
Deacon - Ordained Minister
Priest - Senior Minister
Bishop - Chaplain

There are also the excellent generic terms Celebrant and Officiant (which are easily combined or interchanged with Minister whenever needed to avoid confusion).

All are still 'Ministers' and would state as such for any government license etc.

Pastor - President of the Clergy
Vice Pastor - Vice President of the Clergy

And yes organizations can have more than one President. For some time I've thought Jestor should be President of Member Affairs, The Pastor should be President of Clerical Affairs and I'd change from President to President of Governmental and Legal Affairs. That's another subject of course - but we can have co-presidents.

If this was a voting thing, I would vote for this

I second that for sure.

I third John's suggestion.

MadHatter wrote:

Rick D wrote:

Br. John wrote: Here's a scheme I've been thinking about.

Licensed Minister - Licensed Minister
Deacon - Ordained Minister
Priest - Senior Minister
Bishop - Chaplain

There are also the excellent generic terms Celebrant and Officiant (which are easily combined or interchanged with Minister whenever needed to avoid confusion).

All are still 'Ministers' and would state as such for any government license etc.

Pastor - President of the Clergy
Vice Pastor - Vice President of the Clergy

And yes organizations can have more than one President. For some time I've thought Jestor should be President of Member Affairs, The Pastor should be President of Clerical Affairs and I'd change from President to President of Governmental and Legal Affairs. That's another subject of course - but we can have co-presidents.

If this was a voting thing, I would vote for this

I second that for sure.

Me too ..or is it fourth :laugh:

As very much a 'lay' member of the Temple I appreciate the opportunity to witness this discussion. Br. John's suggestion is probably the least provocative and I would have no problem if that became the new format. At the same time it is also a little too functional . . . 'dry' if you like . . . for my tastes, at least.

It makes sense to have 'Licensed Minister' remain the basic clergy rank for all the reasons already stated: legal, and outside TOTJO recognition. Could we not have a little more fun with the more senior titles though? All senior titles would by definition also be Licensed Ministers for legal purposes.

It's not my place to say but here are some alternative titles to throw into the ring:

Licensed Minister - Licensed Minister
Cleric - Ordained Minister / Deacon
Prior - Senior Minister / Priest
Paladin - Bishop
Vice-Chaplain - Vice-Pastor
Chaplain - Pastor

Love the sound of Paladin