Creationism

As I'm never one to avoid controversy, I want to acknowledge the problem creationists pose to Christianity, particularly in the USA. I want to hear everyone's experience with it and tips on how to fight it.

umm...doesn't creationism and Christianity kind of go hand in hand? lol And why is it just Christianity you're targeting? Jews are the same. So are Muslims.Same basic belief systems. One all-mighty God, creates the universe and everything in it.

I personally believe in creationism, but not in the same way as most people. I believe God set forth events. He caused the "big bang". Yes, he may have created the world in 7 days, but the Bible tells us that a day in Heaven is not the same as a day here on earth. I believe that when the conditions were right, he began the process of creating life.

By the way, I do hope you plan to be more respectful this time around. Last time you brought up creationism, you used the term "retarded creationists". Please be mature and respectful about this this time. That is how a Jedi is supposed to be, and it is part of what this forum is for...a place where people can respect others' point of views without name calling and disrespect. *steps off of soap box*

I've run into these people before... now no offense to anyone who holds such beliefs and keeps them to him/herself (no attempts at converting others), but all of the creationists I've met so-far have been utterly ridiculous and fanatical to the point where they became almost violently agitated when queried seriously about their beliefs. Most of the hard-core creationists simply aren't willing to even consider the possibility of anything outside their ingrained belief system. Of course I can't blame them personally, these things are merely a product of their upbringing.

Because of this though it does make it awfully hard to consider opening their minds. You might have luck with some of them, especially in the younger crowd, but to do so would require the level of charisma and eloquent argumentative skills usually reserved for presidents or shoe salesman. (Besides, then you're just doing what they do, in reverse. No preaching at all dammit!)

My best answer for combating archaic belief systems is to simply be there; lead by example. Show the youngest generations that there's a different way of looking at things, give the kids an option in their lives while they're still young enough to to be open-minded. Eventually, over time and with a little luck, the old belief systems will simply cease to exist as a new way of looking at the world begins to creep into the mass consciousness. Course that's just me being hopeful. My best advice is don't try to discuss any serious topic with a hard-core creationist unless you're within screaming distance of a friendly cop.

To fight something like this is to fight something that has no end or solution. As long as man exists, this point of view shall exist. You'll be going in circles. I'd rather prefer to teach myself how to intelligently and maturely co-exist with them instead. We're all on the same boat having to experience the same things no matter the difference in the labels we give these experiences. While you choose to "fight" fanatics like these, you are simply adhering to the same ideals that they are with others (ex. "Fight the terrorists!!). In this way, you aren't exactly setting yourself apart from them. This is the differences that matter to me. Some of us want to go out and "save the world from doom", and others have come to see that there is nothing to save from any doom but ourselves.

There will be a big war soon enough, and everyone's going to die, except for the smart guys living in space. Survival of the fittest (I mean, the guy in the rocket -- no not the one with the nukes) will take care of that creationist problem.

I do not see a need to fight. They are entitled to their opinion just as much as anyone else.

If the subject comes up and you do not think things will remain civil do not allow yourself to be drawn into a debate, simply state your beliefs and try to agree to disagree.

After all a Jedi is first and foremost an instrument of peace.

MTFBWY

After spending more time thinking about it, I have to ask......why does it really matter? Seriously. We as a society spend so much time arguing about another persons belief system. Why? What is the point? There are a million things in this world that bother the hell out of me, yes, but I find it a waste of energy to argue about it. I get up, I eat, I poop and pee, I work, just like everyone else. What I believe has no effect in how society functions. Unless what someone believes is harmful, I really see no use in arguing. Someone believing God created everything in 7 days is not harmful to you. So, why does it matter?

I do like to open people's eyes, and I do like talking about different points of views with people, but in the end, it always leads to arguing and people acting like children. I've lost count of the debates I have literally walked away from because someone started raising their voice or name calling or belittling another person. I have ZERO respect for people who take that rout, and want nothing to do with them until I see them grow up and not take that rout. I don't tolerate it for my beliefs, and I don't tolerate it for another persons belief, where I agree with them or not. I will stand up for someone whether I agree with them or not...this includes radical creationists.

When you get to Alan Watts you may find a different notion of the futility of pondering our place in the universe.

I agree with the general live and let live philosophy... however the times I've encountered people like this they are far from willing to let anyone who doesn't believe in their ways go without a fight be it verbal or physical. Like I've said before elsewhere I have no problems with what people choose to believe as long as A) Their beliefs don't in any way harm others or the world around them and B)They don't force their children to believe what they believe.

I have a number of really good friends who are christian, they chose that path for themselves it wasn't something they were forced into because of complete intolerance from family or local society. They live happy, good lives and are willing to discuss at length their belief system so far as to admitting that their beliefs might be wrong (they still believe, but they are very open minded when it comes to their beliefs). As far as I can see people who are completely close-minded are one of the biggest problems today and have been the cause for much of the suffering throughout history (not just religious zealots mind you, anyone with a completely closed mind).

I agree personally with most of what Hadi (and pretty much everyone here) has said so far! I agree that we're all just human and should get along... that's one of the reasons Jedi seem like such a great idea, we're the mediators, the peacemakers, the people who don't pick a side but choose to stand in the middle and help both sides see common ground. Unfortunately there are some people out there who are unwilling to even consider anything outside of their beliefs and are willing to go to any extremes to convert other to their beliefs and attack those who do not believe in what they believe. It's my greatest hope therefor that somehow a mass change in consciousness will someday take place, after which any belief that seeks to divide humanity will simply cease to hold any potency.

How can the creationist issue be separated from the Bible Literalist issue? Genesis gives two different accounts of creation and they contradict each other. Later in the Old Testament The Bible clearly states that Earth is fixed and unmovable with four corners. I'm sure you all know what happened to Galileo for saying Earth was not the center of the universe.

I've never met a Creationist who did not frame this as an argument for believing in God or not. As though to believe in evolution was the same as not believing in God.

This is refreshing: http://ThankGodForEvolution.com/

I've thought perhaps when human populations were low, and life was real tough thousands of years ago, that metaphysical spirituality might have been more accessible to people, and as a result a message to guide people to a higher appreciation of it would be practically useful and therefore popular. Though, like a hollywood movie done today about a real world event, for it to be popular it has to be 90% rubbish to keep people's attention and to use contexts relevant to the lives of the readers. So I dont take it literally and instead see the messages as symbolic langauge to the nature of metaphysical spirituality and methods to relate to it. So if someone wants to believe in Genesis literally then I just intepret that to mean they are trying to fully immerse their conscious identity into the story of the book perhaps to maximise its intended purpose. Any evanglism from them in that regard is a sign of the power of their belief and not something to be afraid of, but obviously its rude for anyone to push their beliefs onto other people who dont want to listen or participate.

Br. John wrote: How can the creationist issue be separated from the Bible Literalist issue? Genesis gives two different accounts of creation and they contradict each other. Later in the Old Testament The Bible clearly states that Earth is fixed and unmovable with four corners. I'm sure you all know what happened to Galileo for saying Earth was not the center of the universe.

I've never met a Creationist who did not frame this as an argument for believing in God or not. As though to believe in evolution was the same as not believing in God.

This is refreshing: http://ThankGodForEvolution.com/

Haha! When someone tries to justify Genesis being truth, I bust out the "God created the earth" first (in darkness) and then he made day and night, when we now know factually that it requires a star to create a planet, and therefore the earth couldn't have been created before day and night.

Though, like a hollywood movie done today about a real world event, for it to be popular it has to be 90% rubbish to keep people's attention and to use contexts relevant to the lives of the readers.

So, you're saying christianity is a crappy religion because it is essentially based on some popular hollywood movie?

Many faiths do share the creationism as the way that Earth been created (not exclusively Abrahamists). Others beliving in The Dream (subjectivity) as some peoples in the Big Bang (or other objectivist theories).

The better thing to do would be to travel back in time to know for sure (with dr. Emmett Brown's machine or to pass arround the the sun in hyperexponential speed or with Superman spinning arround the Earth at light speed? lol). Till there, to live in harmony is the better thing to do. Because we can't proove any thories (without any doubts and with a absolute certitude), such "fights" are trivial and futile.

Does anyone here believe that the universe is 6,000 to 8,000 years old and humans appeared ready made much as we are now around 4,000 to 6,000 BCE?

I believe most modern day physicists would agree that the universe may be around 14 billion years old and Earth would be around 3.5 - 4 billion years old. Over the previous decades the Catholic church and many other religions world wide have attempted to align their view points with modern day physics findings.

However, like many have already posed in this thread, your belief is your belief. You don't have to side with science, but to me it does seem more logical. I wont hound you for opposing to the math.

First of all, to answer the accusation of being intolerant toward Christians, I am a practicing Methodist. I believe in evolution.

I will continue to call creationists retarded because that is what they are. Not just because of the stupidity of the YEC position. I think the Flat Earth position is FAR more stupid, but I have no problem with them. Why? Because they do not try to legislate their position, nor do they try to act like they are speaking for all "true" Christians. YECs, however, do. They are no better than Islamic imperialists.

Star Forge wrote: I will continue to call creationists retarded because that is what they are.

Welp, guess adult, mature conversation has been thrown out the window. As much as I hate walking away and not sticking up for someone else, I can only contain myself so much. I do not wish to stoop to your level, so I leave it to the rest of the people here to make their expressions known. From one Christian to another, I pray that you stop this harsh judgement of another group...something the Bible teaches for us not to do. Good day, sir.

I'm still not positive what I believe or how all this works, but the thought of a grand master Jedi who gains even more knowledge after having passed into the force and eventually having so much knowledge of the force he can use it to create, really doesn't bother me too much. At all, actually. In fact, it makes more sense than anything else I can come up with..

ren wrote: So, you're saying christianity is a crappy religion because it is essentially based on some popular hollywood movie?

LOL, no, Life of Brian was done in the UK