A Perspective for Seventh Day Adventists (and other "soul sleep-churches")

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01 Mar 2019 16:36 #335030 by Kraz
I believe that The Holy Spirit is not a person, but the force of God. In other words, the living force, aka. The (Living?) Force is Gods "breath"/power that sustains all life. Christian jedis therefore doesnt worship The Force of God, but God himself in which The Force come from and are sustained by.

This is a more or less known panentheistic christian viewpoint in general, and is actually like what the Orthodox Church gets accused to be (panentheistic) from the Catholic Church. Fun fact!

But a little more specific about the perspective on The Force in a christian denomination which believes in "soul sleep" - how to explain force ghosts? I think we have to think that the persons life-breath (the force that makes our bodies alive and sustains our life necessary functions) are, by Gods mercy, being made alive as an individual "soul-being" being apart from The Gods Force-stream. This may happen because God allow the individual persons force to do so for an amount of time when its beneficial to split from The Force-stream. Because of this theres a need to be split apart from The Force-stream as an individual part of The Force, which for us seems as a "soul", or "Force Ghost" from the perspective of living beings.

What do you guys think? Does this make sense? Other thoughts about this, or other moments Ive forgot to take into notice?
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25 Mar 2019 20:14 #336228 by Alethea Thompson
I'm interested to hear how you can use the Bible to support this theory. But before we get into that- What do you believe the Force does? What's it's function? Is it something only Christians can use? Or can anyone use it?

Once you have a coherent definition of what the Force would be, then we can move forward and establish if the Holy Ghost fits into the description. Otherwise, we are simply trying to fit a term into our own views. A dangerous thing to get into ;)

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26 Mar 2019 05:55 #336297 by Tannis Yarl
It sounds like Kraz is trying to relate to The Force from his own personal experience as a SDA Christian. He stated his hypothesis and asked for other's thoughts on it. I think we can engage in an open exchange of ideas and see where it leads us.

The Breath of Life, I'm thinking Kraz, you are referring to the investment of Spirit (Spiritus/Latin for Breath) into the clay form that became the living Soul known to us as Adam, the first man. By Force Ghosts I'm presuming you are referring to the post death manifestations of Jedi Obi Wan, Anakin, and Yoda seen in the movies. The prequels tell us that Qui Gon Jinn was the 1st Jedi master to retain his individuality from the Force after death and try to continue to guide his padawans. Yoda gives Obi Wan this knowledge and tasks him with mastering the technique during his exile on Tatooine. In a New Hope we see him successfully use it to guide Luke after his own death. This is one of those times where the Movies and our own living practice of Jediism may part ways.

I'll punt this question up to one of our own Clergy and ask: "do we believe in the ability of Jedi to communicate with the living after physical death through the Force?"

I studied with the SDA for several years, was baptized one, and lived the faith for some time. I remember a Bible study about the state of the Dead, and the SDA belief is that the dead are unconscious until the day of judgement. They actually cease to exist until recreated at the rapture, so "ghosts" don't exist outside of stories or Demonic manifestation to mislead, as in the case of Saul's summoning of his advisor from the grave.

I understand interpreting The Force as equilivent to The Holy Spirit, and Force manifestations would hence be creations of God's will and serve his purposes.

Tannis Yarl

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26 Mar 2019 18:03 #336328 by Alethea Thompson
I can appreciate that this may be what he’s trying to do- but it starts from the wrong place.

There are Christians who reject the Jedi Path based solely on “the Force”. To them it has a basis in New Age or Pagan phenomena- and is a real concept believed upon by those not Christian. Until you can relate, and explain, how “the Force” of the fiction translates into the Jediist model, then putting it directly in comparison to something explained in the Bible is nothing more than trying to fit two seemingly incompatible systems into what you want.

This, in and of itself, is a massive problem Christians are facing. It’s not just something like “the Force”; it’s the reality of trying to get the scripture to say something that may or may not be there. Thus we have denominations which are at each other’s proverbial throats because “the Bible doesn’t say that! It says this! You’re speaking heresy!”

Thus, before we can do anything, we must start from the first point (fiction) and translate it out- then determine if the Bible has an equivalent.

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31 Mar 2019 18:53 #336692 by Kraz
Very interesting replies!

Yes, Tannis, it seems like you got me about correct. And yes, it would be interesting to know if the thing about Force Ghosts is a thing in jediism.

To clarify some things in order to make my thoughts (hopefully) a little more understandable:

- If we make som similarities between Gods breath (which made Adam alive) and the Force, we see that both Gods breath and the Force is something that all humans are a part of/have in them. Its this Force, or breath, that makes our bodies alive, and were totally dependent on it to live. In other words, the force that we all live by, doesnt neccessarily need to be other than Gods force. In other words; the Force could be the same as Gods life-giving breath.

This is a classical panentheistic view; God, which exists outside of time and space, at the same time wants to interract with his creation by taking part of what he has created, for example in the form of the life-giving breath. In this way, God could literally be everywhere.

And yes, Alethea, you have right. This is just some kind of free-thinking which have more in common with comparable religion as a subject than anything else. But it is an interesting topic in its own right, anyyway. The reason why it seems like I formulate my sentences in a way that I try "to make it blend into each other" has something to do with my limited knowledge in english formulation.

The point in this thread is therefore to look for similarities and philosophize about it. "Comparative religion" is the keyword(s) here.
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31 Mar 2019 19:01 #336695 by Kraz
About the thing regarding the Holy Spirit:
- It really depends upon if you believe in the trinity or not. Because if you believe in the trinity, this is in clear conflict. That because the Holy Spirit is seen as a person. But if you have a non-trinitarian view, this is no problem. Thats because the Holy Spirit is seen as Gods power (Im really unclear if that is the exactly same thing as the Gods breath, which Ive mentioned in my last comment or something else). The Holy Spirit is, in an non-trinitarian view, seen as a force instead of a concrete person. Thats something to think about in this context.
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