Drone Operators with PTSD

9-11 Operators get it, the correct term isn't PTSD- but Acute Stress Disorder which is just as serious.

Kamizu wrote: Our UAV pilots are as trained and skilled as guys who fly the more traditional aircraft. There's no "pilot" about it. In some ways their job is easier and in others it's more difficult. Still not an easy school or training.

It may not be redefining, everything I know about PTSD is from briefings and time spent talking to the Mental Health doc I was seeing, I haven't dug into it more than what I needed to know for myself and my troops so I could be off

Unless they are flying a solely recognizance aircraft like the Global Hawk or the cute little model-sized one the Army uses (ok, I don't know what kind of training the Army gives on that one...that may be an operator instead of a pilot haha) that don't carry ordnance, I'd say using the weapons IS something they can do about it. And remember, they're also watching friendlies being killed. It's not just about the enemy.

Pilots are under the same rules of engagement as the ground-pounders. And in most (probably all) situations outside of Troops in Contact, someone else orders them to engage. There's quite an extensive list of who is a lawful target and when. No matter where the weapon is located (air or ground), the rules are the same. Although the UAV pilot isn't in life-threatening danger, they have friendlies who are. They may not know them, but they know they are Allied Forces and "one of our own". The training gets beaten into our heads and gives us all something to fall back on in that kind of a situation. Like you said Ren, I'm sure it's the aftermath that's hardest to deal with.

Hey those guys flying the UAVs over pakistan, killing all the civilians? They're not defending anyone from anything. Now imagine having to live with hands covered in the blood of kids who were in a country you're not even at war with.

I think we're comparing apples and oranges, here.

I don't doubt that UAV operators experience stress, and sometimes it causes them to question and doubt. I do not marginalize or trivialize their experience because I think they are very real and very serious.

But I do not think that what they experience is what armed ground combatants experience. During a deadly force encounter, the human body creates neural pathways that stay intact for weeks, months, and years. An example would be a backfiring car causing a veteran to hit the ground. It is a physical response that increases our chances of survival. Odds are if something stressed you out THAT badly and you lived, you need to have a super-highway express lane to reacting quickly the next time it happens. I know if I hear a certain pitch in the air I feel the need to throw myself on the ground and cover up. Overpasses, roadside trash, sitting with my back to a door, vacant streets - all things that make my spidey sense tingle for one reason or another, sure, but none have that bypass-everything-you're-about-to-die effect like the sound of incoming indirect fire or the snap of air as a bullet passes nearby. If I did not know what I know now, I might think something was wrong with me - but now I just chuckle with my teammates about it. Luckily, the Army is really good about identifying PTSD and giving guys and girls the opportunity to get the help they need if they need it. Post-traumatic stress happens...it becomes a disorder when a person begins to avoid situations that might trigger that neural pathway. In effect, they are not doing anything to decondition themselves and learn to cope if they avoid situations entirely because of it. It's a real thing - a gunshot wound you can't see.

Beyond the human body's physical response to combat and deadly force encounters, I think the UAV operators share some of the burden with their land-based brothers and sisters. The things that both groups see are at least on the same plane of experience. I will be the first in line to point out that UAV operators are not slapping on tourniquets and plugging holes, but they see some horrifying stuff just the same. I DO think ren had an interesting roudabout point in his second statement about the 'natural order' of things in a battle. Whatever a ground combat soldier does or does not do, he knows from a psychological and physical standpoint he is invested and present in what occurs. His stakes are as high as ANYONE'S in a gunfight, so he has bought his way into a certain level of moral and ethical high-ground with all 180 lbs of his breathing personhood. A UAV operator has no such high-ground:

"If [I'm] in the field risking and taking a life, there's a sense that I'm putting skin in the game ... I'm taking a risk so it feels more honorable. Someone who kills at a distance—it can make them doubt. Am I truly honorable?" - Dr. Shannon French, Code of the Warrior

I think that is the crux of the issue. They see some horrible situations unfold out there without the investment of self. Perhaps they make decisions too quickly or without enough information - or at least fear that they do. I cannot honestly say what goes through their minds. On that, though ultimately it is not THEIR decision to release payload on a target. Weaponized UAVs skirt armed conflict conventions because sometimes the operators are civilians...who could now be considered combatants. This issue is mitigated with an on-the-ground military member assuming responsibility for release authority. Still and all, I imagine it's tough to watch some of the after-effects. In a similar spirit, consider the sniper. Whereas a rifleman may have as much as a fourpower scope on his assault weapon, he is not often tasked with reconnaissance or engagement after long periods of surveillance. A sniper team may watch a target of 72 hours, getting to know the person, people, or things they are looking for as intimately as possible. Then, depending on the mission, engage them. Not a silhouette or shape, but a guy you perhaps saw call his wife on a cell phone, eat dinner with his parents, and kiss his kids goodnight - then attempt to plant an IED at an intersection. Then the sniper watches what follows, just like a UAV pilot. There is no release of chemicals and toxins in the bloodstream that are processed through fight or flight movement. They just sit, watch, and think - maybe start to stalk back and change positions.

Anyway, those are a couple of my cents on the topic.

I don't think they share the same neural pathway/physiological response conditioning from what they do, but they have the same moral quandries to think about and see some of the same horrors (even if they are removed a degree via remote device).

Ren:

There is no reliable source proving or disproving the number of civilians that were killed in Pakistan as a result of a UAV attack.

The lack of what the DOD's PR department considers to be "reliable sources" does not make something true or untrue. Besides, to get accurate information, all there is to do is invert whatever the CIA says. "no civilian casualties" means "bloodbath". "multiple WMD production and storage facilities" means "couldn't find a radioactive pebble"...etc
Also, regardless of what the figures are, the sovereignty of pakistan has been violated, and its citizens, killed.

I think it was generally accepted that Pakistan lost control of its western provinces bordering Afghanistan, and certainly at one stage both Pakistan and the Western forces in Afghanistan were fighting the same people but from different sides. I'd imagine a lot of the Pakistani official 'press' against it is for domestic consumption to stop public opinion switching to sympathize with the Taliban and its supporters.

Ren:

You have no idea how much vetting it takes to get rounds on target. Even as a boot on the ground you have to see the person shooting at you to shoot back. Enemy propaganda can be just as deceptive as friendly propaganda. Yes, there have been incidents with collateral damage. It's an unfortunate reality.

Actually, the CIA is not an accurate judge either- NO ONE is, which is why it is speculation on both sides.

You're doing nothing more than spreading propaganda. As a Jedi, is it not a tenet that we seek out accurate information? Doing a search on the internet, all anyone can find is speculation of what has occurred. UAV operators don't even have the closure to know whether or not they have taken out an innocent life because of the lack of data that can be accurately ascertained from the region and their attacks beyond what is told to them by intelligence analysts.

Can the government be trusted on such matters- I'm not saying they can be.
But equally- can any media be trusted either? It's just as much no as it is for the government. It's all about what makes the headlines and what people want to push on their own agendas. We have no idea who's right and who is wrong on this- so it is best to simply leave it at that, rather than push what you want to be true. (oddly posted that just before I read my husband's facebook page which he said in response to your post- which is as follows)

"If you want to assert the truth, first make sure it's not just an opinion that you desperately want to be true." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

As it pertains to the sovereignty of Pakistan- I won't argue that point- as I happen to agree. I just don't like poor research and propoganda fear-mongering which has no support. And in this case, you have as much support for your statement as the CIA has on it's own statement : None.

Alethea I have the support of the international community, if that is not enough please point me to any alien independent observers you know of.
E-3 I am very well aware of how things are done. My concern isn't about trigger-happy soldiers or UAV pilots, american soldiers are treated like complete morons and haveall sorts of crazy rules... The problem is with their bosses, who in this case was the CIA, an organization known for its complete disregard of absolutely everything just and honorable.

Adder I know pakis who live in the UK and have family in pakistan. The drone attacks CAUSED people to join insurgent forces and a severe increase anti-american sentiment. Just like the lack of action against israel is causing many muslims to become radicalized. And here I'm talking about people i personally know.
Also the nation-state is a fairly recent invention. It doesn't work all that well everywhere, especially for young countries with old communities like pakistan. It is not surprising that many places don't have very good intra-border control. Americans and australians forget that they come from brand new countries. Absolutely everything is baggage-free. You go to europe, take a tiny country like belgium for example, and look: it's split in two communities which basically can't stand each other. Lots of regions want independence.... There are some in france, in spain, in italy, etc... And there aren't even any deep religious or cultural differences! Just because pakistan didn't build a giant fence like the US and israel did on their borders doesn't mean any particular areas are out of control terrorist cesspits.

Ren you have no proof to back up your claims except what other people from foreign country's claim. Have you personally been over there and have SEEN it for yourself? If not, you have nothing left to say. I have personally be over there, as I'm sure there are other Jedi here who have been deployed as well. I can promise you, every measure is taken when we engage hostiles. As E-3 says, its a painful reality in war, that innocents may sometimes die, or be caught in a cross fire. It is something we do not take lightly. However, I have personally seen MANY cases of where they use civilians as human shield. Just like what HAMAS is doing in GAZA. As to your comments about the war causing many Muslims to go radical, well if all it takes is for a country to defend its self from radical Islamic attacks, to become radicalized, they were already in the process to begin with.

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Disclaimer: I apologize if this is considered thread derailment, but I could not let claims with no validation or truth to be spoken of this caliber.

Moving on, we each deal with things in our own way. We all have our own personal demons or Dark Side to sort out, so who am I to say that Drone Operators do not suffer with a form of PTSD? I have never been one, or have known one so I can not say that they do not. Seeing the reality of war, is very trying for people, no matter what our role.