The Three Tenets

It might be the case that someone is behaving in a ridiculous manner, doing what they think is fun, messing around and not taking things so seriously. That person we might colloquially call a "fool", but in fact so long as they were aware of what they were doing and the reason for it then really they might be a lot wiser than some...

Things might be better off in the world if people took less stuff seriously, it is foolishness masquerading as wisdom rather than wisdom masquerading as foolishness.

Akkarin wrote: It might be the case that someone is behaving in a ridiculous manner, doing what they think is fun, messing around and not taking things so seriously. That person we might colloquially call a "fool", but in fact so long as they were aware of what they were doing and the reason for it then really they might be a lot wiser than some...

Things might be better off in the world if people took less stuff seriously, it is foolishness masquerading as wisdom rather than wisdom masquerading as foolishness.

Along those lines, this Willy Wonka quote struck me the moment I heard it:

"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men."

Gisteron wrote: My point was not to define what is foolish or wise on a practical level. I could try if I needed to, but that wasn't the case I was making.
You said that (you believed that) foolishness is the greatest form of wisdom. I just pointed out that whatever foolishness and wisdom end up being defined as ultimately, they are already contradictory, at least according to one reasonably respected dictionary. I also looked it up at others and in order to make that case there I'd have to quote several entries rather than one, but it would end up the same.

Now, of course it doesn't say that foolishness and wisdom are mutually exclusive. One can be both at different times or with different matters, just like a zebra is both black and white depending which isolated spot you examine, and to an alien race that knows only that the zebra is striped, I wouldn't have to define what I mean by black and white individually. The point is, that a zebra isn't both black and white in the same spot. Its blackness isn't a form of its whiteness, much less the greatest form thereof. In the same way foolishness is not a form of wisdom, though both may be represented in any one individual.

I guess I make riddles, let me quote myself, just for the irony of myself :whistle:

You told me:
Akkarin wrote:,,If foolishness is not a form of wisdom''

I told you:
Aqua wrote:,,Does this mean a fool can not be a wise individual?''
With this sense gives my opinion, a fool can be a wise individual to.

You were talking about the Zebra story, ,,In the same way foolishness is not a form of wisdom, though both may be represented in any one individual.'' An unexpected sense, I love to see that your creative thinking gives me a hard minding about the question.. It is pushing me to seek answers on it, first I would like to say that foolishness is a form of wisdom, so wisdom is a form of foolishness.
I would give you the question:


,,How can you tell me that wisdom is not an form of foolishness?'' If everybody gives an other explanation of wisdom, could it be that there are multiple ways of answering the question, with all the correct answers?

In the Dutch language we have the proverb :,, End well, all well '' witch could be translated as if the end is good, than everything would end good and happy.

I guess this is the end of my answer to your counter question for me, multiple answers, and a very lovely story about the Zebra, I had never thought to talking about Zebras in this post, wonderful! And you have a good ability to explain your meaning, the fact that you uses Zebra`s makes it even more interesting, more enjoyable to philosophise about the subject

To end my post with an open end for the topic, as well in the same theme of this post..

-Tells the story of the three tenets an second truth?-

Wisdom vs foolishness here sounds like a duality. These contemplations can easily go in endless circles because of their mutually arising nature in our perception between them. We can only know wisdom in light of foolishness, while only knowing foolishness in the light of wisdom. Both are a form of the whole in which they are carved from when our perception divides them apart.

Proteus wrote: Wisdom vs foolishness here sounds like a duality. These contemplations can easily go in endless circles because of their mutually arising nature in our perception between them. We can only know wisdom in light of foolishness, while only knowing foolishness in the light of wisdom. Both are a form of the whole in which they are carved from when our perception divides them apart.

How can there be duality if wisdom and foolishness are part of one zebra? Mmm.. I start to like the zebra? :woohoo: I would see it like an opposite that is in harmony with the other opposite, duality sounds so aggressive why else would the force bind us in harmony :blush:

Aqua wrote:

Proteus wrote: Wisdom vs foolishness here sounds like a duality. These contemplations can easily go in endless circles because of their mutually arising nature in our perception between them. We can only know wisdom in light of foolishness, while only knowing foolishness in the light of wisdom. Both are a form of the whole in which they are carved from when our perception divides them apart.

How can there be duality if wisdom and foolishness are part of one zebra? Mmm.. I start to like the zebra? :woohoo: I would see it like an opposite that is in harmony with the other opposite, duality sounds so aggressive why else would the force bind us in harmony :blush:

Wisdom and foolishness are ends of a spectrum.. they are a dual in the sense that one is the opposite of the other, but in reality there is rarely either extreme. Without one, we cannot know the other.

Coincidentia oppositorum, whereby the contrary is a necessary condition for the occurrence of one and/or the other.

Aqua wrote: • Focus
• Knowledge
• Wisdom

When used correctly, the Jedi Tenets allow us to better ourselves and overcome any obstacle. They help us improve the world around us and fulfil our purpose in life as a Jedi.

Wisdom is the sound application of accrued knowledge and experience through patient, good judgment. Knowledge can be acquired by focusing on the task at hand. Focus is the art of pruning the irrelevant and pouring the best of your mind into what you are doing.


''When used correctly'', How to use the three Tenets correctly? If this eventually comes to "pouring the best of your mind;'' Than I have the second question, what is the best of my mind?

You know it's used correctly when it betters you and makes you overcome any obstacle. Used incorrectly when you do not reach those goals.
And the best of your mind is that which leads you to focus as opposed to procrastination.

ren wrote:

Aqua wrote: • Focus
• Knowledge
• Wisdom

When used correctly, the Jedi Tenets allow us to better ourselves and overcome any obstacle. They help us improve the world around us and fulfil our purpose in life as a Jedi.

Wisdom is the sound application of accrued knowledge and experience through patient, good judgment. Knowledge can be acquired by focusing on the task at hand. Focus is the art of pruning the irrelevant and pouring the best of your mind into what you are doing.


''When used correctly'', How to use the three Tenets correctly? If this eventually comes to "pouring the best of your mind;'' Than I have the second question, what is the best of my mind?

You know it's used correctly when it betters you and makes you overcome any obstacle. Used incorrectly when you do not reach those goals.
And the best of your mind is that which leads you to focus as opposed to procrastination.

A small reminder of the beautiful text message of the IP of Edan:

Edan wrote: Without knowledge one has nothing to focus one, so alone focus has no real application other than quieting the mind; focus requires wisdom in order to know what one should focus on and how to achieve focus.
Knowledge is good to have, but without focus one cannot learn to filter out what is important and what is not, and without wisdom one doesn’t have the ability to use or apply knowledge and so knowledge accumulates without purpose.
Lastly, wisdom can only come through an accumulation of relevant knowledge and experience, which is found through focus.
When a person lacks one of the three, the triangle is broken and none can be used to its full advantage.
Without wisdom, knowledge may accumulate but it will never be used adequately. Without focus one may learn many things but never perhaps what is needed, or never enough of what is needed. Lastly, without knowledge one is unable to use wisdom to make good decisions.

Ren:,,And the best of your mind is that which leads you to focus as opposed to procrastination.'' Why is a mind with focus the best, if I need a complete circle according to the three Tenets.. Understanding needs time, and sometimes haste.. opposed procrastination could bring your mind in unbalance.. :blush:

Aqua wrote: Ren:,,And the best of your mind is that which leads you to focus as opposed to procrastination.'' Why is a mind with focus the best, if I need a complete circle according to the three Tenets.. Understanding needs time, and sometimes haste.. opposed procrastination could bring your mind in unbalance.. :blush:

It will all be unbalanced in the beginning as you figure things out for yourself, but without some focus you won't find a way to build up knowledge or wisdom. If you are always procrastinating, you are never moving forwards.

Edan wrote:

Aqua wrote: Ren:,,And the best of your mind is that which leads you to focus as opposed to procrastination.'' Why is a mind with focus the best, if I need a complete circle according to the three Tenets.. Understanding needs time, and sometimes haste.. opposed procrastination could bring your mind in unbalance.. :blush:

It will all be unbalanced in the beginning as you figure things out for yourself, but without some focus you won't find a way to build up knowledge or wisdom. If you are always procrastinating, you are never moving forwards.

Now the philosophical way, if I can take the circle of the three tenets as the forward way, I can also take the circle of the three tenets as the reverse way. Maybe opposed procrastination give less unbalance as I thought..

but without some focus you won't find a way to build up knowledge or wisdom, only focus is not enough, I think we need all three to the complete the circle, and we need all three to start the circle. This would mean that we have the circle inside us, but we should discover it with self awareness.

I think that self awareness is the first step to understand the three tenets, to start the circle, the purpose to evolve your very own existence, the way of the three tenets, reason and way of own judgement.

Aqua wrote: I think that self awareness is the first step to understand the three tenets, to start the circle, the purpose to evolve your very own existence, the way of the three tenets, reason and way of own judgement.

I use the platonic solid of a tetrahedron for visualizing that sort of thing, with the three points on the same plane connected by direct lines as the 'engine' of motivation, then placing additional points by adding the 4th in another (temporal) plane above (or below) as a reference point of balance in a future context, and 5th point balanced inside the form to represent the balanced position of the others (which would indicate actual perception/self/now). That would mean the initial contemplation of those 3 points as a flow occurs slightly in the past (reflection), meaning the whole thing is a process of sitting the mind into a broader temporal space, a bit out into the future to try and sense out the best patterns or process faster.

I then can expand that by populating each face's created plane to understand 'influence' of each of those factors/point's. It is an interesting visualization to expand upon using the Three Tenets in contemplating the process of thought/awareness.

What is interesting is this technique could prove useful if theories like Causal Dynamical Triangulation , quantum thought anyone!!? LOL, or there is even a theory about reality based on triangulation at http://www.pinterest.com/tetryonics/tetryonic-theory/
:blink:
I don't know enough about it to know if it makes any sense but its fun to work with.

Adder, that is such a cool spatial visualization. It is fun to work with. Thanks.

Also, nice work Aqua. What a bright (insightful, deep, sensitive) Novice! I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Aqua wrote:

ren wrote:

Aqua wrote: • Focus
• Knowledge
• Wisdom

When used correctly, the Jedi Tenets allow us to better ourselves and overcome any obstacle. They help us improve the world around us and fulfil our purpose in life as a Jedi.

Wisdom is the sound application of accrued knowledge and experience through patient, good judgment. Knowledge can be acquired by focusing on the task at hand. Focus is the art of pruning the irrelevant and pouring the best of your mind into what you are doing.


''When used correctly'', How to use the three Tenets correctly? If this eventually comes to "pouring the best of your mind;'' Than I have the second question, what is the best of my mind?

You know it's used correctly when it betters you and makes you overcome any obstacle. Used incorrectly when you do not reach those goals.
And the best of your mind is that which leads you to focus as opposed to procrastination.

A small reminder of the beautiful text message of the IP of Edan:

Edan wrote: Without knowledge one has nothing to focus one, so alone focus has no real application other than quieting the mind; focus requires wisdom in order to know what one should focus on and how to achieve focus.
Knowledge is good to have, but without focus one cannot learn to filter out what is important and what is not, and without wisdom one doesn’t have the ability to use or apply knowledge and so knowledge accumulates without purpose.
Lastly, wisdom can only come through an accumulation of relevant knowledge and experience, which is found through focus.
When a person lacks one of the three, the triangle is broken and none can be used to its full advantage.
Without wisdom, knowledge may accumulate but it will never be used adequately. Without focus one may learn many things but never perhaps what is needed, or never enough of what is needed. Lastly, without knowledge one is unable to use wisdom to make good decisions.

Ren:,,And the best of your mind is that which leads you to focus as opposed to procrastination.'' Why is a mind with focus the best, if I need a complete circle according to the three Tenets.. Understanding needs time, and sometimes haste.. opposed procrastination could bring your mind in unbalance.. :blush:

A mind with focus is not "the best", in fact I could easily argue that focus with nothing else ranges from foolishness to outright stupidity...
The best of your mind leads to focus, not focus leads to the best of your mind. To focus on a task is not easy; there are parts of your mind that "want" the task, and other parts that do everything to avoid it (because the task requires effort).
My point is that you can identify what the best of your mind is because it is that part which allows you to focus. In fact if you look at anti-procrastination methods, it's all about identifying what part of your mind gets stuff done and rewarding it whilst "punishing" the parts of your mind that do the opposite.

The tenets can't really be explained, you have to work them out as you go along...Is there truly a way to differentiate between knowledge and misinformation? the wise and the unwise? And what if focus is in fact to choose to see the details of nothingness instead of looking at the blur of perspective?

I am glad Aqua started this thread.. the more I read the more I remember what I have to learn...

Ren:,,The tenets can't really be explained, you have to work them out as you go along...Is there truly a way to differentiate between knowledge and misinformation? the wise and the unwise? And what if focus is in fact to choose to see the details of nothingness instead of looking at the blur of perspective? ''

I can not tell if you are right, if you are wrong; I can not tell if I am right, or if I am wrong. I guess that disinformation is still information, it depends on what you are seeking and what you see in it. Disinformation is like an invisible college, not knowing it is there but gives a great deal of understanding why you think it is right or wrong, maybe you find your answer to be neutral in the end..
I could say that information awareness depends on what you are looking for and that we could see this as an chameleon changing from colours, trying form his skin to his background, trying to put his truth to whatever it is, the chameleon decides if he shows it to the world, or keeps it hidden from the world.
Like the moon who changes her form in the light, knowing she has a permanent form in the dark. It is like our mind, we change our view on a subject if we want to, but we can not change our unknown. I hope this will cover both questions

Edan wrote: I am glad Aqua started this thread.. the more I read the more I remember what I have to learn...

I hear this more often the last few days, in multiple variations still.. First of all, thank you for the kind words. I am very happy people enjoy talking about the essence of Jediism.

I am told that people do not speak often about the Jedi ways, in form of discussion on the forums. I do not know if I should think it is because people have past there apprentice period, being afraid to go against the teachings or if there is an other reason.. or that I am fully wrong on it, that is possible to. However we are all student, even the high ranked Jedi, teachings are made by questions, understandings and more.

The true compliment should go to everybody who is willingly to talk about Jedi questions, who help to keep this thread alive for the time it is useful.
I do not deserve a compliment just because I have started this thread, Edan. It are the questions that drives us to whatever is to study Jediism, my vision is to share questions, I can not do it on my own so lets share this compliment all together and may many questions follow

~Aqua

Ren:,,The tenets can't really be explained, you have to work them out as you go along...Is there truly a way to differentiate between knowledge and misinformation? the wise and the unwise? And what if focus is in fact to choose to see the details of nothingness instead of looking at the blur of perspective? ''

I can not tell if you are right, if you are wrong; I can not tell if I am right, or if I am wrong. I guess that disinformation is still information, it depends on what you are seeking and what you see in it. Disinformation is like an invisible college, not knowing it is there but gives a great deal of understanding why you think it is right or wrong, maybe you find your answer to be neutral in the end..
I could say that information awareness depends on what you are looking for and that we could see this as an chameleon changing from colours, trying form his skin to his background, trying to put his truth to whatever it is, the chameleon decides if he shows it to the world, or keeps it hidden from the world.
Like the moon who changes her form in the light, knowing she has a permanent form in the dark. It is like our mind, we change our view on a subject if we want to, but we can not change our unknown. I hope this will cover both questions

I think you're confusing Misinformation and Disinformation. Disinformation is a crafted lie, the creation of a propagandist... Misinformation is an unintended lie/untruth, a belief that is "wrong".
Take for example a religious belief like belief in god. Disinformation would be if you "know" that there is no god, but tell people that there is one (for the purpose of manipulating them into being orderly/obedient for example). Misinformation would be to believe there is a god when there isn't one (or to believe there is no god when god does in fact exist). And knowledge would be to actually be absolutely certain there there is in fact a god (and there is one)
My point is, whether the information is true knowledge, or misinformation or disinformation, how can you tell which is which? By seing it with your own eyes? But your eyes can only see the things they actually see, an interpretation of a portion of what's actually there...And so I ask, how can you ever (truly) know anything?
My answer would be that I cannot and have no other choice but use faith. I have faith that my eyes see more or less what's there, that my mind more or less correctly interprets that information. Except I also "know" that it isn't always the case... Or do I? :silly:

ren wrote:

Ren:,,The tenets can't really be explained, you have to work them out as you go along...Is there truly a way to differentiate between knowledge and misinformation? the wise and the unwise? And what if focus is in fact to choose to see the details of nothingness instead of looking at the blur of perspective? ''
I can not tell if you are right, if you are wrong; I can not tell if I am right, or if I am wrong. I guess that disinformation is
still information, it depends on what you are seeking and what you see in it. Disinformation is like an invisible college, not knowing it is there but gives a great deal of understanding why you think it is right or wrong, maybe you find your answer to be neutral in the end..
I could say that information awareness depends on what you are looking for and that we could see this as an chameleon changing from colours, trying form his skin to his background, trying to put his truth to whatever it is, the chameleon decides if he shows it to the world, or keeps it hidden from the world.
Like the moon who changes her form in the light, knowing she has a permanent form in the dark. It is like our mind, we change our view on a subject if we want to, but we can not change our unknown. I hope this will cover both questions

I think you're confusing Misinformation and Disinformation. Disinformation is a crafted lie, the creation of a propagandist... Misinformation is an unintended lie/untruth, a belief that is "wrong".
Take for example a religious belief like belief in god. Disinformation would be if you "know" that there is no god, but tell people that there is one (for the purpose of manipulating them into being orderly/obedient for example). Misinformation would be to believe there is a god when there isn't one (or to believe there is no god when god does in fact exist). And knowledge would be to actually be absolutely certain there there is in fact a god (and there is one)
My point is, whether the information is true knowledge, or misinformation or disinformation, how can you tell which is which? By seing it with your own eyes? But your eyes can only see the things they actually see, an interpretation of a portion of what's actually there...And so I ask, how can you ever (truly) know anything?
My answer would be that I cannot and have no other choice but use faith. I have faith that my eyes see more or less what's there, that my mind more or less correctly interprets that information. Except I also "know" that it isn't always the case... Or do I? :silly:

I like the response, the funny part is, I have gave you answers to your questions before asking them, no offence.. :blush:


Ren:,,My point is, whether the information is true knowledge, or misinformation or disinformation, how can you tell which is which?´´ The answer I gave on this question was that you can not know if it: ''true'' knowledge, misinformation or disinformation. Due to the fact that everyone has an different interpretation of information, due to the different interpretation, every one has a different opinion:

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. It could mean that you can only achieve knowledge if you let go ignorance, It could also mean that you have to let go any information, to find new information. It could mean that we have to let go our opinion about knowledge, misinformation and disinformation, and see them all as various forms of knowledge, with an understanding that varies from person to person, Knowledge as an mirror of our own understanding of information. A mirror changes. And so our opinion was born.

Ren: ,,And so I ask, how can you ever (truly) know anything?'' My answer on this question was given:

I can not tell if you are right, if you are wrong; I can not tell if I am right, of if I am wrong. The ironic part is, how can I know everything, if I can not tell if I am right, or wrong? I do not have the knowledge of everything, I do not want to know everything, I want to understand what I see, what I do, what drives me. I see of it like understanding other people to understand myself. Maybe other people have different ways of understanding themselves, I do not know.
Understanding the world around us is secondary to understand ourselves. Understand ourselves gives us an mirror of understanding the world

Now my question: ,,Would you know everything, and what could the effect be if ?'' :side:

lol we're not disagreing but not quite talking about the same thing either I think just hoping there is more to be squeezed out of this. And apparently there is (I also use "you" rather strangely, most often it means you, me everyone else SO EVERYONE ELSE PLEASE JOIN IN lol)

Would you know everything, and what could the effect be if ?

If knowledge ("true knowledge") is accurate complete information, meaning that accurate yet incomplete (or inaccurate) information is not knowledge then there is only one truth, one knowledge, one "I know"....

Which means you either know about everything or you don't know about anything... I like to think we know everything, but cannot access the knowledge due to our minds not being the Force itself, making "ignorance yet knowledge" and "death yet the force" strangely linked.

(I hope that made sense)

How a language barrier can lead to beautiful moments, wonderful :laugh:

So it could means that we use our understanding of the force to make decisions, as if we had the knowledge on moment of doing? And could mean that our choices in live are like the choices we make with the force?

I do not know if that was what you meant :woohoo: