This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No)

Moderators: Adder, Adhara

This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 06:03 #40114

  • Br. John
  • Br. John's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 523
While The Council would need to vote on this change I feel that input from all interested members is necessary for informed consideration.

For some time I've felt that calling this Special Interest Group Abrahamic is silly and not reflective of its contents at all. The content of the forum is 99.9%+ Christian.

History and the numbers don't support the current name. In the entire history of TOTJO I'm only aware of one member who nominally practiced the Muslim faith and only one or two who claimed the Jewish faith. I'm not attesting there are not more but stating this from my personal memory and experience.

Contrast this to the significant number of active members who are Christian Jedi. I believe the forum suffers from its current name and would be much more lively and used if we call it what it is - Christian Studies.

This is not to put off any potential member who may be Muslim or Jewish but to enhance a real need that we actually have now. We have a significant Christian population. We have a physical congregation in Minnesota with Zanthan Storm as it's Pastor and Bishop. They are Christian Jedi.

To have a group you have to have ... well ... a group.

In the future if there develops a real demand for an Islamic Studies forum or a Jewish Studies forum (and so on) we can make them.

In the beginning this forum was called The Christian Rite and it was changed on the theory of being more inclusive. That was a mistake. By trying to cast so large a net it's alienating the persons who'd actually use it.

Anyone be they guest or member is most welcome to express his or her ideas about this if interested.
Founder of The Order

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 09:41 #40117

I think Christian studies or something along that line would be a more suitable name. I believe it would be a better description as well and would reflect the content better and would possibly be used more with a name change. As you stated, the Abrahamic religions vary greatly from one another, so it is hard to lump them all into one.

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 10:38 #40121

I see no issue, though a sticky about the change, why, and how we are not trying to put off the other abrahamic faiths might be a good idea if the change is done.

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 21:54 #40127

I have met one Muslim Jedi and one Jewish Jedi. To refer to this group as just Christian really does seem to snub the other two groups. If we changed this to "Christian", then why not change the Pagan group to "Wiccan". To do so with the latter would estrange a number of other groups which do not adhere to Wicca (for example, Hinduism).

If the subject was to change both groups from their names to something a bit more broad (Abrahamic becomes Monotheistic and Pagan becomes Polytheistic) then I might be more willing to accept the idea.
Alethea "Setanaoko" Thompson
Apprentice to Br. John

"Stop praying. Praying is a sense of false accomplishment, thus leading you to inaction. If you stop praying, you will be driven to take action, which in the end will prove more effective." - Nathan Thompson

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 23:12 #40129

As Br John stated though, if needed a group for Jewish, Muslim or other monotheistic religious people could be made. I don't think it would be snubbing them, as they are still welcome and another group can be made if the need or want arose. From how I see it, it is just hard to fit all God or monotheistic based religions under the Abrahamic group. Seeing as each of these often have very differing views on some stances. Also, newcomers might would be less hesitant to join if there was more of a specification of what religion. Not to stereotype, but people can be very protective of their faiths even down to how it is categorized. So in that aspect I see it as more of a help.

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 02:45 #40132

  • Akkarin
  • Akkarin's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Councillor
  • Priest
  • ID: 484
As a non-Christian/Abrahamic Jedi I don't really have any issues other than what Jasper said.
Jasper_Ward wrote:
I see no issue, though a sticky about the change, why, and how we are not trying to put off the other abrahamic faiths might be a good idea if the change is done.

The only thing I would add is maybe to edit the FAQ with the question 'Why is there no Judaism/Islamic special interest group?' That way if anyone ever asks then we have the thread about it and they can see it in the FAQ as well.

The worst thing that can happen is that someone accuses us of being insensitive or otherwise when regarding the views of Islam or Judaism or indeed any other religion.

So I think it is just prudent to cover all of the bases.
Apprentices: discorder, hellisforhorses, Red Lila
Former Apprentices: Desolous
Former Master: Br. John

Councillor
Head of Public Relations and Marketing
Librarian
Associate Pastor

Senior Knight and Priest of the Temple of the Jedi Order

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 05:33 #40133

I know that I'm not an experienced member, but I'd like to point out that I myself don't see a need for that. It will probably only cause some minor future problems (like others said: "Why is there no Islamic/Judaism group?") and the people who use this forum know that it's mostly Christian either way. It will close the door for other Abrahamic religions - not forever, of course, but might be some disappointment for new members.

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 05:43 #40134

  • Xiam
  • Xiam's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • ID: 1027
Randi Oxford wrote:
I have met one Muslim Jedi and one Jewish Jedi. To refer to this group as just Christian really does seem to snub the other two groups. If we changed this to "Christian", then why not change the Pagan group to "Wiccan". To do so with the latter would estrange a number of other groups which do not adhere to Wicca (for example, Hinduism).

If the subject was to change both groups from their names to something a bit more broad (Abrahamic becomes Monotheistic and Pagan becomes Polytheistic) then I might be more willing to accept the idea.
This was my thinking as well. I would have agreed to switch to Christian Rite had there been nothing but Christians, but as it was mentioned that there were a small few of the Abrahamic Rite that are not Christian, I am much more wary about it. A minority is still a number. It doesn't seem right that they should be ignored just to make the majority more comfortable (and really, how much of a change in comfort is it anyway? Christianity is an Abrahamic religion).

Plus, there's the issue of how to deal with those who aren't Christian and are looking for a place where they fit (i.e. the hypothetically nonexistent Abrahamic Rite). You can talk about placing disclaimers or answers in the FAQ or waiting for complaints, but that still takes effort on their part, when all they're wanting is to find a place where they can be comfortable, and feel a bit nervous when they can't find it.

Maybe I'm overthinking things in assuming that would be their reactions, I don't know. It just seems like a needless change. And again, .1% may be small, but it's still something worth considering.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Qui-Ran Demera

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 06:37 #40136

  • Br. John
  • Br. John's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 523
I'm looking at this from the perspective of mislabeling or false advertising. What's actually in that forum? I'm not finding any Jewish or Muslim discussions but plenty of Christian discussions including prayers and ceremonies for a multitude of occasions.

I frequently eat and get take out from a local Black Eye Pea restaurant. The food is very good and so it the service. Several months ago my mother and I went there and the special was Chicken and Dumplings. We ordered it. What a letdown. It was Chicken Soup with dumplings thrown in. Even Campbell's Soup gets this right. They have a Chicken Soup with Dumplings and then they have Chicken and Dumplings which (I hope) you all know is a rich creamy sauce with plenty of chicken and dumplings made from biscuit batter.

So while I don't know how a Muslim or Jewish person would feel if they go in this forum I do understand the disappointment of expecting something and not getting it.

Nobody's saying we cannot have and add forums labeled Muslim Studies and Jewish Studies.

What I'm saying is that we properly label that forum to reflect what's actually in it.
Founder of The Order

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 21:31 #40149

Then perhaps it would be a good idea for people who are in that forum to help bring about more teachings from the other two systems. Just to help even things out. After all, Christianity sprung forth from Judaism, and Islam sprung from Christianity. It helps bring about a more well rounded view of how the system has evolved in the three systems.

You know, so long as they remain respectful when researching and posting.
Alethea "Setanaoko" Thompson
Apprentice to Br. John

"Stop praying. Praying is a sense of false accomplishment, thus leading you to inaction. If you stop praying, you will be driven to take action, which in the end will prove more effective." - Nathan Thompson
The following user(s) said Thank You: Nameless3450
Latest Posts Comments Articles
    • Keeping Calm and Centered (Last post by Talariq)
    • That's a really good idea, Proteus. I know paying attention to my breathing is how I calm myself when I catch myself about to fly off the handle. Maybe consciously paying attention to it throughout the beginning of my day will help prevent becoming irrational in the first place. I don't know if this will help anyone else dealing with a similar issue, but today I'm making a list of everything that gets under my skin like that. Later, I plan on taking everything and reflecting on why it gets to me so badly. I'm already seeing how stupid some of it really is, so hopefully that suggestion can help someone else in the same boat.
    • Open Sermon Slots (Last post by Jamie Stick)
    • Twice now I've sent my sermon to someone on the day it's supposed to be published and I noticed that it's pretty much not enough turn around time so I'm wondering if anyone has a recommended amount of time prior to the day it's supposed to be published that open sermons should be submitted?
    • Drone Operators with PTSD (Last post by carlos.martinez3)
    • I have been to war and i have been diagnosed with PTSD.Please remember that it is a mental thing. Most Soldiers Airman Sailors are fully trained on their equipment but not how to handle the stress of war. No one really is. I have the Grace to have th FORCE in my life and a GREAT family to back me up. Not to many people can say that. The level and severity of PTSD is mostly based on what is on the inside of the person not on their training or on their combat experience but how they react to it. ex.. I had the privilege to work in a hospital during a few of my war days... a rocket struck a building near a open soccer field...football for the rest of the world. Turned into a disaster area. we called it a mass cal...massive casualty scenario...long story short one sgt in particular... saw me carrying a child in my arms to safety.... she could not get that sense from her mind and had to be hospitalized in the states. the action is not the case, its what the person sees and how they react to it.hope this helps more JEDI open their mind. pm me any time CARLOS
    • Going on a Trip (Last post by Silvermane)
    • We are going to enjoy it very much. I've been to the California coast during this time of year and I loved it. So I'm excited to see what it will be like in Oregon. And sea food, nuff said. XD
    • Discussion 1 - The Call to Adventure (Last post by SeventhSL)
    • Quote: 1. Ignoring the definitions above for a moment, what does the word "Adventure" mean to you? How about "Hero"? Are you a hero? To me adventure is doing something well and truly beyond my own comfort zone. This means enduring hardship and overcoming seemingly impossible odds. I see heroes as people who have succeeded where I have failed. People who are strong where I am week, people who just don't give up despite fear and doubt. Am I a hero? My two little boys often see me that way but if I am truly honest with myself then the reality is I'm just your average bloke. Quote: 2. Read the definition of 'adventure' above, and your own answer to question 1. What are some of the things you consider "adventures" in your own life? Are you on one right now? What were the "calls" which began these adventures? Many years ago I was arrested for an armed robbery I didn't commit. After three years and a lot of heartache I was found innocent. Another 5 or so years after that and the detectives who arrested me were themselves found guilty by a crime and misconduct commission. Gun fights, bad guys on the run trying to find me and kill me, friends shot dead, a family member shot and survived, good cops, bad cops and what I can only describe as a series of divine events which included salvation via gun jamming, wild storms and several incredible coincidences. It's truly worthy of a book and perhaps one day it will be. For me the hardest part of that adventure was the call. Comically the national news told me that I was going to be arrested the night before so it was far from a surprise. Fighting my fear, the overwhelming desire to run and standing my ground against a powerful adversary was a hard call to adventure for me to except. Thankfully today trouble seems to be back looking for people who are looking for it and I've been left in peace once more with a whole new appreciation for a simple life. Quote: 3. Joseph Campbell wrote: The big question is whether you are going to be able to say a hearty yes to your adventure. What do you think the relationship between being ready to answer the call to adventure is to becoming a hero? Do you feel ready to give a "hearty yes" when adventure comes calling? I think you can't be a Hero without an adventure and you can't have an adventure without the call. I'd like to say I'm always ready to answer the call but as I've had a couple of big adventures in my life I'm wise enough to say that your never really ready for it. Understanding the call can be a truly daunting prospect. Quote: 4. Jedi are ordinary people, without superpowers unlike our fictional inspiration, often without the kinds of famed achievements or renowned victories usually associated with heroes. Many of us live ordinary and fairly conventional lives. Why do you think the study of heroes and adventures is relevant to our path? Is it? By studying others we learn from their triumphs and tragedies. We acquire part of their wisdom without ever having to suffer the learning process. In this way we are able to stand on the shoulders of those who have come before us as those who come after us will stand on our shoulders in turn.
    • MJ Hannigan (Last post by tzb)
    • To knowingly allow the other gods to trick Fenrir, no less.
    • Course Comms (Last post by tzb)
    • Discussion 2 - Refusal of the Call now available: www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/the-h...-refusal-of-the-call PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THE COURSE COMMS THREAD
    • Discussion 2 - Refusal of the Call (Last post by tzb)
    • [image] We left our hero... hearing the call to adventure, something which challenges them to take on the burden of saving their normal, everyday world by taking a valiant leap into the unknown. But will they be brave enough to heed the call? The hero has heard the call to adventure, but remember, they aren't a hero yet. There are many reasons the hero might refuse the call, and decide to stick with their normal, boring lives; they may not feel ready or in a position to heed the call for a number of good reasons. This is a familiar experience for us all. Sometimes, we are brought an idea or a situation which we don't feel equipped to deal with, and find ourselves afraid, or our hands tied in some way. Perhaps we are married with kids and can't take the once-in-a-lifetime round the world trip with our friends. Perhaps we can't risk our jobs or our homes on a risky dream. Perhaps we're just too afraid to "follow the white rabbit" and take a leap into the unknown. Refusal of the call is less of a feature of ancient myth, where heroes were often portrayed as "fully" heroic, meaning no doubts could enter their mind or impede their quest. However modern stories appreciate that moments of doubt are natural, human and important to the development of a realistic and relatable hero. Where the heroes of ancient myth were frequently gods, or god-like (as in the cases of Jesus, King Arthur and Beowulf), other heroes are human, and this moment of doubt makes this possible. [image] There are any number of negative reasons someone might refuse the call to adventure. This is intrinsically related to character flaws, which as we discussed in Discussion 1 are a common feature of heroes before they set out: * Self-doubt: If someone doesn't believe they have the strength, skill, prowess or ability to complete an adventure they may hesitate to set out on it. This is the reason the ancient heroes were rarely shown to express doubt: their myths were calls to action rather than depictions of real heroes. Real people are flawed, and a lack of self-belief is a common flaw. * Cowardice: Self doubt taken to its logical conclusion becomes cowardice, a chronic avoidance of challenges and the unknown. Many heroes begin their journeys with a cowardly refusal of the difficulties which have fallen into their lap. Think of Bilbo Baggins' initial horror at becoming involved in an adventure with Gandalf, for example. * Arrogance: On the flipside, some heroes will not participate in an adventure because they feel it is beneath them. Characters such as Gilgamesh and Beowulf now seem almost preposterously over-equipped for the quests before them. Sometimes a hero may need to be persuaded of the benefit for them of actually participating in a quest. Thinking slightly laterally, Han Solo refuses to join the rebellion because he believes he is already outsmarting the empire; in the fullness of time he learns that there is more at stake than his own skin and he becomes a better person for it. It's worth considering, however, there are also many positive reasons a hero might refuse the call: * Duty: An ideal example is that of Luke in Episode IV. He pleads with his uncle to allow him to join the academy and is told he is needed for a few more seasons. Luke is not too afraid to go, far from it - he's well aware of what a fantastic pilot he would make. But he remains out of a sense of duty to his uncle and aunt. Other examples of duty include military or other forms of professional obligation. * Devotion: Sometimes a prospective hero may feel too devoted to something which is part of their ordinary world to consider leaving for an adventure. A wife, a child, a father or mother. There are many sources of devotion which may be enough to force a hero to reject their destiny. * Learning From Experience: Trying and failing is a perfectly valid reason for a hero to refuse the call. This simply shows the hero can learn from the mistakes or missteps of the past. Think of Simba's humiliation at being rescued from the Elephant Graveyard by Mufasa. He has learned a valuable lesson about his own weaknesses, one which in time he could have put into practice in a positive way, by working hard to become stronger. It is not wrong that he is more cautious as a consequence of his experience. [video] This stage of the journey is a challenging one. On the one hand, we can feel compelled to think a little less of our heroes if they waver on the threshold of adventure. How can we look up to people who hesitate at the first sign of difficulty? But on the other hand, how could we realistically appreciate the danger and difficulty of the situation the hero is faced with if they never pause for a moment? Remember, we've only just met this character; without this hesitation, for all we know Luke destroys Death Stars every week. There is a crucial role in a plot for this reflection on the difficulties the hero will face. In doing so, the hero reveals the areas in which they need to grow. But however much stands in the way, the call to adventure has shown the hero a larger world. The herald is an invader from a realm which was once outside of the hero's experience, and now they know the "bubble" of their boring, ordinary life can be penetrated, they can't realistically turn back. The refusal of the call is a temporary stage which cannot overcome the true hero; and of course, if the hero stopped here, we wouldn't be telling their story at all. Quote: Often in actual life, and not infrequently in the myths and popular tales, we encounter the dull case of the call unanswered; for it is always possible to turn the ear to other interests. Refusal of the summons converts the adventure into its negative. Walled in boredom, hard work, or "culture," the subject loses the power of significant affirmative action and becomes a victim to be saved. His flowering world becomes a wasteland of dry stones and his life feels meaningless [...] All he can do is create new problems for himself and await the gradual approach of his disintegration. From The Hero with a Thousand Faces Examples Spoiler: * Gilgamesh: Journeying to face Humbaba, Gilgamesh expresses doubt: "I feel haunted. I am too afraid to go on" * The Odyssey: Odysseus' son, Telemachus has just been born and fatherly instinct compels him to stay * The Enlightenment of Buddha: Buddha becomes frustrated with the received wisdom of gurus and sages from existing traditions * The Crucifixion of Jesus: Jesus shows hesitation at the Mount of Olives before the Last Supper, asking God to "take this cup" * Beowulf: At no point do we hear Beowulf refused the call, although we do hear that elders in Geatland "spurred his ambition" suggesting he was encouraged to go, the only indication he didn't motivate his entire adventure himself * The Theft of Thor's Hammer: Thor is totally resistant to Loki's plan of dressing up as women to enter Jötunheim * King Arthur: Arthur is only a child and may therefore have doubts his ability to lead the kingdom * The Lord of the Rings: Frodo inherits Bag End, hides Bilbo's ring and thinks nothing more of it * Star Wars Episode IV: Luke's obligations to his relatives, his refusal of joining the rebellion, and of Obi-Wan's training * The Karate Kid: Daniel visits the Cobra Kai dojo and realises Johnny trains there. He leaves, dejectedly * The Lion King: Simba is rescued from the Elephant Graveyard by Mufasa and ashamed of his actions * The Matrix: Neo is captured by agents and subjected to torture. He wakes up in his bed and assumes the whole thing was a dream * Harry Potter: Harry doesn't believe he is anything special as The Boy Who Lived Questions Spoiler: * Have you ever refused the call? Do you regret it? Can you think of a time where you refused the call and it turned out to be the right decision? * What are the most common reasons people "refuse" adventure in their lives, and why? * Try and think of two reasons in addition to the ones listed above that someone might refuse the call, ideally one negative reason, and one positive reason. Do you think they are good reasons? * Think of our doctrine. Are there any reasons one might refuse the call based on something listed there? If so what, and why? Next: Supernatural Aid (Available Monday 6th October)
    • Zen Pencils (Last post by Invictus)
    • I love Zen-Pencils! Especially the drawing with Allan Watts. It's deep...and so true! :)
    • On Self Knowledge (and The Jedi Path) (Last post by Br. John)
    • On Self-Knowledge - Kahlil Gibran Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights. But your ears thirst for the sound of your heart's knowledge. You would know in words that which you have always known in thought. You would touch with your fingers the naked body of your dreams. And it is well you should. The hidden well-spring of your soul must needs rise and run murmuring to the sea; And the treasure of your infinite depths would be revealed to your eyes. But let there be no scales to weigh your unknown treasure; And seek not the depths of your knowledge with staff or sounding line. For self is a sea boundless and measureless. Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth." Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path." For the soul walks upon all paths. The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed. The soul unfolds itself like a lotus of countless petals.
    • Where is the line between freedom of speech... (Last post by Akkarin)
    • Quote: The working definition of a religion in my World Religions college course is from Invitations to World Religions, Brodd, Little, et al, Oxford University Press. "Religion is a cultural system integrating teachings, practices, modes of experience, institutions, and artistic expression that relates people to what they perceive to be transcendent" (page 9). I can't find the quote right now but Ninian Smart in "The Religious Experience" I think says that arguably there is no such thing as "religion" there are only the "religions". The outline of his point is below: What he means by this is that "religion" is a term given from the "outside" by people trying to classify what they think constitutes Christianity (or whichever religion) and then calling it Christianity. The "religions" on the other hand are instead that which people decide to call their faith (or whatever it is). This is essentially switching the focus from an outsider look in and saying "this is the name of what you're doing" to the religious person themselves saying "this is the name I give to what I'm doing". What does this mean for what is a religion or not a religion? It means that what the person is doing is a religion if they believe that what they are doing is religious. Is Buddhism a religion or a philosophical way of life? That depends on whether the Buddhist considers what they are doing to be religious or not.

There are 319 visitors, 5 guests and 55 members online (one is in chat): Akkarin, Br. John, Alethea Thompson, steamboat28, Shadouness, Firewolf, Jestor, jedi_roz, ren, Joe, Brian, Wescli Wardest, Adhara, Desolous, discordor, Proteus, Reacher, Alexandre Orion, Boesen, Clone_Warrior, MCSH, Arcade, Talariq, Buvan, Llama Su, Kamizu, elizabeth, mdk, Edan, Avalonslight, Silvermane, tzb, Kaverael, Frost, carlos.martinez3, Cabur Senaar, AlexanderJ.W, Goken, Targeran Arynal, Aqua, Revan Falton, Jeffery Williams, Oneiros, Mos-An Hobel, skizm100, I.R97.

Follow Us