This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No)

Moderators: Adder, Desolous

This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 06:03 #40114

  • Br. John
  • Br. John's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 523
While The Council would need to vote on this change I feel that input from all interested members is necessary for informed consideration.

For some time I've felt that calling this Special Interest Group Abrahamic is silly and not reflective of its contents at all. The content of the forum is 99.9%+ Christian.

History and the numbers don't support the current name. In the entire history of TOTJO I'm only aware of one member who nominally practiced the Muslim faith and only one or two who claimed the Jewish faith. I'm not attesting there are not more but stating this from my personal memory and experience.

Contrast this to the significant number of active members who are Christian Jedi. I believe the forum suffers from its current name and would be much more lively and used if we call it what it is - Christian Studies.

This is not to put off any potential member who may be Muslim or Jewish but to enhance a real need that we actually have now. We have a significant Christian population. We have a physical congregation in Minnesota with Zanthan Storm as it's Pastor and Bishop. They are Christian Jedi.

To have a group you have to have ... well ... a group.

In the future if there develops a real demand for an Islamic Studies forum or a Jewish Studies forum (and so on) we can make them.

In the beginning this forum was called The Christian Rite and it was changed on the theory of being more inclusive. That was a mistake. By trying to cast so large a net it's alienating the persons who'd actually use it.

Anyone be they guest or member is most welcome to express his or her ideas about this if interested.
Founder of The Order

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 09:41 #40117

I think Christian studies or something along that line would be a more suitable name. I believe it would be a better description as well and would reflect the content better and would possibly be used more with a name change. As you stated, the Abrahamic religions vary greatly from one another, so it is hard to lump them all into one.

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 10:38 #40121

I see no issue, though a sticky about the change, why, and how we are not trying to put off the other abrahamic faiths might be a good idea if the change is done.

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 21:54 #40127

I have met one Muslim Jedi and one Jewish Jedi. To refer to this group as just Christian really does seem to snub the other two groups. If we changed this to "Christian", then why not change the Pagan group to "Wiccan". To do so with the latter would estrange a number of other groups which do not adhere to Wicca (for example, Hinduism).

If the subject was to change both groups from their names to something a bit more broad (Abrahamic becomes Monotheistic and Pagan becomes Polytheistic) then I might be more willing to accept the idea.
Alethea "Setanaoko" Thompson
Apprentice to Br. John

"Stop praying. Praying is a sense of false accomplishment, thus leading you to inaction. If you stop praying, you will be driven to take action, which in the end will prove more effective." - Nathan Thompson

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 23:12 #40129

As Br John stated though, if needed a group for Jewish, Muslim or other monotheistic religious people could be made. I don't think it would be snubbing them, as they are still welcome and another group can be made if the need or want arose. From how I see it, it is just hard to fit all God or monotheistic based religions under the Abrahamic group. Seeing as each of these often have very differing views on some stances. Also, newcomers might would be less hesitant to join if there was more of a specification of what religion. Not to stereotype, but people can be very protective of their faiths even down to how it is categorized. So in that aspect I see it as more of a help.

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 02:45 #40132

  • Akkarin
  • Akkarin's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Councillor
  • Priest
  • ID: 484
As a non-Christian/Abrahamic Jedi I don't really have any issues other than what Jasper said.
Jasper_Ward wrote:
I see no issue, though a sticky about the change, why, and how we are not trying to put off the other abrahamic faiths might be a good idea if the change is done.

The only thing I would add is maybe to edit the FAQ with the question 'Why is there no Judaism/Islamic special interest group?' That way if anyone ever asks then we have the thread about it and they can see it in the FAQ as well.

The worst thing that can happen is that someone accuses us of being insensitive or otherwise when regarding the views of Islam or Judaism or indeed any other religion.

So I think it is just prudent to cover all of the bases.
Apprentices: discorder, hellisforhorses, Red Lila
Former Apprentices: Desolous
Former Master: Br. John

Councillor
Head of Public Relations and Marketing
Librarian
Associate Pastor

Senior Knight and Priest of the Temple of the Jedi Order

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 05:33 #40133

I know that I'm not an experienced member, but I'd like to point out that I myself don't see a need for that. It will probably only cause some minor future problems (like others said: "Why is there no Islamic/Judaism group?") and the people who use this forum know that it's mostly Christian either way. It will close the door for other Abrahamic religions - not forever, of course, but might be some disappointment for new members.

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 05:43 #40134

  • Xiam
  • Xiam's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • ID: 1027
Randi Oxford wrote:
I have met one Muslim Jedi and one Jewish Jedi. To refer to this group as just Christian really does seem to snub the other two groups. If we changed this to "Christian", then why not change the Pagan group to "Wiccan". To do so with the latter would estrange a number of other groups which do not adhere to Wicca (for example, Hinduism).

If the subject was to change both groups from their names to something a bit more broad (Abrahamic becomes Monotheistic and Pagan becomes Polytheistic) then I might be more willing to accept the idea.
This was my thinking as well. I would have agreed to switch to Christian Rite had there been nothing but Christians, but as it was mentioned that there were a small few of the Abrahamic Rite that are not Christian, I am much more wary about it. A minority is still a number. It doesn't seem right that they should be ignored just to make the majority more comfortable (and really, how much of a change in comfort is it anyway? Christianity is an Abrahamic religion).

Plus, there's the issue of how to deal with those who aren't Christian and are looking for a place where they fit (i.e. the hypothetically nonexistent Abrahamic Rite). You can talk about placing disclaimers or answers in the FAQ or waiting for complaints, but that still takes effort on their part, when all they're wanting is to find a place where they can be comfortable, and feel a bit nervous when they can't find it.

Maybe I'm overthinking things in assuming that would be their reactions, I don't know. It just seems like a needless change. And again, .1% may be small, but it's still something worth considering.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Qui-Ran Demera

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 06:37 #40136

  • Br. John
  • Br. John's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 523
I'm looking at this from the perspective of mislabeling or false advertising. What's actually in that forum? I'm not finding any Jewish or Muslim discussions but plenty of Christian discussions including prayers and ceremonies for a multitude of occasions.

I frequently eat and get take out from a local Black Eye Pea restaurant. The food is very good and so it the service. Several months ago my mother and I went there and the special was Chicken and Dumplings. We ordered it. What a letdown. It was Chicken Soup with dumplings thrown in. Even Campbell's Soup gets this right. They have a Chicken Soup with Dumplings and then they have Chicken and Dumplings which (I hope) you all know is a rich creamy sauce with plenty of chicken and dumplings made from biscuit batter.

So while I don't know how a Muslim or Jewish person would feel if they go in this forum I do understand the disappointment of expecting something and not getting it.

Nobody's saying we cannot have and add forums labeled Muslim Studies and Jewish Studies.

What I'm saying is that we properly label that forum to reflect what's actually in it.
Founder of The Order

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 21:31 #40149

Then perhaps it would be a good idea for people who are in that forum to help bring about more teachings from the other two systems. Just to help even things out. After all, Christianity sprung forth from Judaism, and Islam sprung from Christianity. It helps bring about a more well rounded view of how the system has evolved in the three systems.

You know, so long as they remain respectful when researching and posting.
Alethea "Setanaoko" Thompson
Apprentice to Br. John

"Stop praying. Praying is a sense of false accomplishment, thus leading you to inaction. If you stop praying, you will be driven to take action, which in the end will prove more effective." - Nathan Thompson
The following user(s) said Thank You: Nameless3450
Latest Posts Comments Articles
    • speed of light (Last post by Gisteron)
    • The laws of nature aren't so much given laws by which nature obides as they are our descriptions of what we observe in nature. In this sense, we don't know what makes anything a rule, but based on what we see we propose patterns and then test the predictions our patterns make to see if they are applicable to reality and to what extent. Now classical speed, or Galilean velocity if you will is indeed relative. It is an approximation of the motions at speeds far below the speed of light. As things move faster, i.e. closer to the speed of light however we find that those models are too simplistic and increasingly fail to describe and predict observations. In the early twentieth century this was mostly theoretical and was hard to observe so it followed from other laws that were in turn easily observable. Now, with particle accelerators, we can actually induce high velocities and observe the resulting behaviour of mass. Now since I didn't thoroughly cover relativity myself, I shan't start with those and then deduce relativistic equations from them. Now there is the so-called energy-momentum relation, an equation that relates any object's rest mass m0, momentum p and total energy E: [image] where c is the speed of light. Since the rest mass of a light quantum (and I mean any electromagnetic quantum, of course) is zero, you can see that the energy of a photon reduces to E=pc and since a massive object at rest has zero momentum (because in that case p=m0v where v is the object's velocity), its energy at rest reduces to E=m0c2. Now, we can trivially expand the latter equation by v/v=1 resulting in [image] and with mv=p [image] Now we solve for pc and feed that into our initial equation to get [image] Solving for E2 we get [image] As you can see, as v approaches c, the denominator approaches zero and therefore the total energy E of that object approaches infinity. In other words, the faster you go, the more energy it takes to accelerate any further. Now, from pre-relativistic (I hesitate to say Newtonian, given that Newton had no concept of energy) mechanics we know that the total kinetic energy pc is proportional to m0v2 where m0 is the rest mass of the object. Now, m0v2 doesn't appear to offer a speed limit. The more energy you put in, the more velocity you get, it seems. But of course that is incorrect, first because of the equation we denominator we came to see above, and second because the kinetic energy must in any case equal the total momentum pc=Mvc where M is the total mass of the object. Therefore: [image] And since v is variable and m is constant, their ratio is variable which means that the ratio of M and m is variable and with m being constant the total mass M must be variable. Not only does mass not decrease with increasing velocity. In fact, the opposite is the case: An object seems to gain mass as it accelerates, which explains why it gets increasingly impossible to accelerate it further as it gets closer to the speed of light. I hope this helps a little. Bear in mind, I am much of a layman myself and chances are I made unwarranted or simply wrong assumptions to get to the conclusions I presented here. They are in any case correct, as far as I know, but my way to reach them could be heavily flawed.
    • Jediism, relationship of perfection and harmony in... (Last post by Aqua)
    • Dear Jedi, I am working on my Initiate program, but I have found some questions. I would love to hear about your own opinions, what do you think of the relationship of perfection and harmony in comparison with Jediism? I was talking with one of the Jedi masters at the temple some time ago, I said: ,, Maybe meditation is like a hurricane, a calm eye with a wild storm.. as opposite of each other forming a harmony. The more I thought of harmony, the more I was guessing that harmony could have a opposite, could it be that I cannot know harmony, is a harmony? Maybe we do not have to seek for perfection, looking at imperfect things could give us a imagination of how we want to perfect it. what is perfection, if harmony can do both, would that be a perfection on itself? What is harmony, and does it know an opposite?`` May the force guide us and be with us all, :blush: ~ Aqua
    • Beyond Carnism and towards Rational, Authentic Foo... (Last post by ren)
    • Quote: Quote: Perhaps I would be more honest(with myself) in saying I believe(not know) they feel it on a level we can not(so far been unable) quantify. If we pretend for a moment that it will take more than simple science to explain everything in the universe, almost every animist culture agrees that (on a spiritual level) plants do feel pain when hurt, and fear when threatened, without the proper respect or rites. To be fair animism almost makes scientific sense: science is never right, but "righter" every day. Animism is basic theorization of observed phenomenon: Observation: Take too much fish from the river and the river won't give you any again Theory: The river is angry with you, the river is therefore some sort of being of greater complexity than you Speaking of which, animism, from latin "animus" which is also the root of "animal", meant life, not just life made out of meat. If that's not a sign of sentiocentrism in biology, I don't know what is :P
    • for our d&d fans (Last post by Jedi_Roz)
    • That was fun! :D Have not done one of these in awhile. Although usually I come out as a Paladin or Cleric. :D (that's usually what I play) Lawful Neutral Human Druid (5th Level) Ability Scores: Strength- 13 Dexterity- 15 Constitution- 18 Intelligence- 14 Wisdom- 18 Charisma- 14 Alignment: Lawful Neutral- A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs him. Order and organization are paramount to him. He may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or he may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government. Lawful neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot. However, lawful neutral can be a dangerous alignment when it seeks to eliminate all freedom, choice, and diversity in society. Race: Humans are the most adaptable of the common races. Short generations and a penchant for migration and conquest have made them physically diverse as well. Humans are often unorthodox in their dress, sporting unusual hairstyles, fanciful clothes, tattoos, and the like. Class: Druids- Druids gain power not by ruling nature but by being at one with it. They hate the unnatural, including aberrations or undead, and destroy them where possible. Druids receive divine spells from nature, not the gods, and can gain an array of powers as they gain experience, including the ability to take the shapes of animals. The weapons and armor of a druid are restricted by their traditional oaths, not simply training. A druid's Wisdom score should be high, as this determines the maximum spell level that they can cast. Detailed Results: Alignment: Lawful Good ----- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (25) Neutral Good ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (22) Chaotic Good ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (18) Lawful Neutral -- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (27) True Neutral ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (24) Chaotic Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (20) Lawful Evil ----- XXXXXXXXXXXXXX (14) Neutral Evil ---- XXXXXXXXXXX (11) Chaotic Evil ---- XXXXXXX (7) Law & Chaos: Law ----- XXXXXXXXXXXXX (13) Neutral - XXXXXXXXXX (10) Chaos --- XXXXXX (6) Good & Evil: Good ---- XXXXXXXXXXXX (12) Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXXXXX (14) Evil ---- X (1) Race: Human ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXX (13) Dwarf ---- XXXXXXXXXXXX (12) Elf ----- XXXXXX (6) Gnome ---- XXXX (4) Halfling - XX (2) Half-Elf - XXXXXXXX (8) Half-Orc - XXXXXX (6) Class: Barbarian - XXXXXXXX (8) Bard ----- XXXXXXXX (8) Cleric ---- XXXXXX (6) Druid ----- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (16) Fighter --- XXXXXXXXXXXX (12) Monk ----- XXXXXXXXXX (10) Paladin --- XXXXXXXXXX (10) Ranger ---- XXXXXXXXXXXX (12) Rogue ----- XX (2) Sorcerer -- XXXXXXXXXXXXXX (14) Wizard ---- XXXXXXXXXX (10)
    • Jediism? (Last post by Jestor)
    • Since this ISNT the Gathered Force Community, perhaps we can discuss this site? We too have a map, located here: www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Offline-activities :)
    • Cultural Appropriation (Last post by OB1Shinobi)
    • Quote: I'm just going to sneak in at the end here and place this link: instinctmagazine.com/post/uk-students-un...n-acting-black-women I make no comments... OHNO THEY DITANT! :snap: :headtilt:
    • Rants far and wide (Last post by RyuJin)
    • Quote: To whoever designed the Capri-Sun drink pouch, you owe me an ounce of fruit punch and a new shirt. Who thought squeezing an aluminum pouch and stabbing it with a sharp plastic straw would be the best way to distribute a beverage? [image] :pinch: :angry: too bad there isn't a "super like" button....because that is hilarious....i've lost count of how man times capri sun has blasted me..
    • Making of a Jedi Warrior (Last post by OB1Shinobi)
    • i prefer in certain instances to disregard the idea of defense or defending, and substitute it for the idea of attacking the attack this first video for me is not so much actual knife response as it is general intro to krav 360 technique which i had meant to put first up but oh well
    • The Art of Self-Discipline (Last post by Luthien)
    • Self-discipline... For me, it's about what one wishes to accomplish, or complete, or whatever the goal is which motivates one to take the necessary steps toward it. Quite simply, it's being able to overcome how you feel to do what you need to do. The reason it's so difficult for everybody is because everybody's goals are typically different. Personally, the simpler something is to do, the easier it is to maintain in the long run. If you overcomplicate the process of your daily living, it won't be sustainable for very long. You notice something that you want to change, come up with an effective solution, and stick with it until it becomes part of your daily life. Then, it doesn't take any more than a thought to remember what you need to do. Sometimes the goal isn't very simple, but adding a step at a time will bring you closer to it, you just have to be patient with yourself and keep your motivation, somehow, as there is no one solution which is applicable for every person. It's the drive, the hunger for more, the thirst for better. Essentially, it's what Buddhism sets out to free you from; desire, thus suffering. But, if you would suffer for a short while to achieve your long-term goals, you will be happy and free. Work with your philosophic, thinking mind to create that discipline you seek. I've heard it said that you may master something only if you know how to simplify it, though that's not always the case. One can show understanding by being able to explain in simple terms, most of the time. One can show mastery of an art by how simply they create, or express themselves. One can show mastery of their own life by how simply they live. I think it takes a lot of discipline to keep one's life simple. I'm currently working on doing that, myself, so I constantly ask myself whether something is essential, or just a waste. I also constantly have to keep my pride in check, or remember to remain humble. It's with humility that I am able to surpass prior limitations. Too much thought may cloud your judgment. If you find yourself overthinking things like I do, step away from it and re-approach it with a fresher mind. That's all I have for now. I would like to help as much as I can, but I'm not sure if what I said was helpful. Take it with a grain of salt, I guess.

There are 297 visitors, 8 guests and 23 members online (2  in chat): Br. John, Shadouness, Jestor, Karn, ren, Adhara, Darren, Gisteron, Proteus, Alexandre Orion, Rosalyn J, Alan, scott777ab, Llama Su, Kamizu, Edan, Wudan, Mathew Erickson, Cabur Senaar, KalSterner, Aqua, Tarran, Atticus509, The Penguin, Oakenshaw, Laï-La, Tombe, Winston.

Follow Us