This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No)

Moderators: Adder, Adhara

This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 06:03 #40114

  • Br. John
  • Br. John's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 523
While The Council would need to vote on this change I feel that input from all interested members is necessary for informed consideration.

For some time I've felt that calling this Special Interest Group Abrahamic is silly and not reflective of its contents at all. The content of the forum is 99.9%+ Christian.

History and the numbers don't support the current name. In the entire history of TOTJO I'm only aware of one member who nominally practiced the Muslim faith and only one or two who claimed the Jewish faith. I'm not attesting there are not more but stating this from my personal memory and experience.

Contrast this to the significant number of active members who are Christian Jedi. I believe the forum suffers from its current name and would be much more lively and used if we call it what it is - Christian Studies.

This is not to put off any potential member who may be Muslim or Jewish but to enhance a real need that we actually have now. We have a significant Christian population. We have a physical congregation in Minnesota with Zanthan Storm as it's Pastor and Bishop. They are Christian Jedi.

To have a group you have to have ... well ... a group.

In the future if there develops a real demand for an Islamic Studies forum or a Jewish Studies forum (and so on) we can make them.

In the beginning this forum was called The Christian Rite and it was changed on the theory of being more inclusive. That was a mistake. By trying to cast so large a net it's alienating the persons who'd actually use it.

Anyone be they guest or member is most welcome to express his or her ideas about this if interested.
Founder of The Order

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 09:41 #40117

I think Christian studies or something along that line would be a more suitable name. I believe it would be a better description as well and would reflect the content better and would possibly be used more with a name change. As you stated, the Abrahamic religions vary greatly from one another, so it is hard to lump them all into one.

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 10:38 #40121

I see no issue, though a sticky about the change, why, and how we are not trying to put off the other abrahamic faiths might be a good idea if the change is done.

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 21:54 #40127

I have met one Muslim Jedi and one Jewish Jedi. To refer to this group as just Christian really does seem to snub the other two groups. If we changed this to "Christian", then why not change the Pagan group to "Wiccan". To do so with the latter would estrange a number of other groups which do not adhere to Wicca (for example, Hinduism).

If the subject was to change both groups from their names to something a bit more broad (Abrahamic becomes Monotheistic and Pagan becomes Polytheistic) then I might be more willing to accept the idea.
Alethea "Setanaoko" Thompson
Apprentice to Br. John

I am a Coast Guardsman,
I serve the People of the United States,
I will protect them,
I will defend them,
I will save them,
I am their shield,
For them I am Semper Paratus,
I live the Coast Guard Core Values,
I am proud to be a Coast Guardsman,
We are the United States Coast Guard!

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 02 Jul 2011 23:12 #40129

As Br John stated though, if needed a group for Jewish, Muslim or other monotheistic religious people could be made. I don't think it would be snubbing them, as they are still welcome and another group can be made if the need or want arose. From how I see it, it is just hard to fit all God or monotheistic based religions under the Abrahamic group. Seeing as each of these often have very differing views on some stances. Also, newcomers might would be less hesitant to join if there was more of a specification of what religion. Not to stereotype, but people can be very protective of their faiths even down to how it is categorized. So in that aspect I see it as more of a help.

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 02:45 #40132

  • Akkarin
  • Akkarin's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Councillor
  • Priest
  • ID: 484
As a non-Christian/Abrahamic Jedi I don't really have any issues other than what Jasper said.
Jasper_Ward wrote:
I see no issue, though a sticky about the change, why, and how we are not trying to put off the other abrahamic faiths might be a good idea if the change is done.

The only thing I would add is maybe to edit the FAQ with the question 'Why is there no Judaism/Islamic special interest group?' That way if anyone ever asks then we have the thread about it and they can see it in the FAQ as well.

The worst thing that can happen is that someone accuses us of being insensitive or otherwise when regarding the views of Islam or Judaism or indeed any other religion.

So I think it is just prudent to cover all of the bases.
Apprentices: Red Lila
Former Apprentices: Desolous
Former Master: Br. John

Councillor
Head of Public Relations and Marketing
Librarian
Associate Pastor

Senior Knight and Priest of the Temple of the Jedi Order

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 05:33 #40133

I know that I'm not an experienced member, but I'd like to point out that I myself don't see a need for that. It will probably only cause some minor future problems (like others said: "Why is there no Islamic/Judaism group?") and the people who use this forum know that it's mostly Christian either way. It will close the door for other Abrahamic religions - not forever, of course, but might be some disappointment for new members.

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 05:43 #40134

  • Xiam
  • Xiam's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • ID: 1027
Randi Oxford wrote:
I have met one Muslim Jedi and one Jewish Jedi. To refer to this group as just Christian really does seem to snub the other two groups. If we changed this to "Christian", then why not change the Pagan group to "Wiccan". To do so with the latter would estrange a number of other groups which do not adhere to Wicca (for example, Hinduism).

If the subject was to change both groups from their names to something a bit more broad (Abrahamic becomes Monotheistic and Pagan becomes Polytheistic) then I might be more willing to accept the idea.
This was my thinking as well. I would have agreed to switch to Christian Rite had there been nothing but Christians, but as it was mentioned that there were a small few of the Abrahamic Rite that are not Christian, I am much more wary about it. A minority is still a number. It doesn't seem right that they should be ignored just to make the majority more comfortable (and really, how much of a change in comfort is it anyway? Christianity is an Abrahamic religion).

Plus, there's the issue of how to deal with those who aren't Christian and are looking for a place where they fit (i.e. the hypothetically nonexistent Abrahamic Rite). You can talk about placing disclaimers or answers in the FAQ or waiting for complaints, but that still takes effort on their part, when all they're wanting is to find a place where they can be comfortable, and feel a bit nervous when they can't find it.

Maybe I'm overthinking things in assuming that would be their reactions, I don't know. It just seems like a needless change. And again, .1% may be small, but it's still something worth considering.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Qui-Ran Demera

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 06:37 #40136

  • Br. John
  • Br. John's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 523
I'm looking at this from the perspective of mislabeling or false advertising. What's actually in that forum? I'm not finding any Jewish or Muslim discussions but plenty of Christian discussions including prayers and ceremonies for a multitude of occasions.

I frequently eat and get take out from a local Black Eye Pea restaurant. The food is very good and so it the service. Several months ago my mother and I went there and the special was Chicken and Dumplings. We ordered it. What a letdown. It was Chicken Soup with dumplings thrown in. Even Campbell's Soup gets this right. They have a Chicken Soup with Dumplings and then they have Chicken and Dumplings which (I hope) you all know is a rich creamy sauce with plenty of chicken and dumplings made from biscuit batter.

So while I don't know how a Muslim or Jewish person would feel if they go in this forum I do understand the disappointment of expecting something and not getting it.

Nobody's saying we cannot have and add forums labeled Muslim Studies and Jewish Studies.

What I'm saying is that we properly label that forum to reflect what's actually in it.
Founder of The Order

Re: This Should Be Christian Not Abrahamic (Yes / No) 03 Jul 2011 21:31 #40149

Then perhaps it would be a good idea for people who are in that forum to help bring about more teachings from the other two systems. Just to help even things out. After all, Christianity sprung forth from Judaism, and Islam sprung from Christianity. It helps bring about a more well rounded view of how the system has evolved in the three systems.

You know, so long as they remain respectful when researching and posting.
Alethea "Setanaoko" Thompson
Apprentice to Br. John

I am a Coast Guardsman,
I serve the People of the United States,
I will protect them,
I will defend them,
I will save them,
I am their shield,
For them I am Semper Paratus,
I live the Coast Guard Core Values,
I am proud to be a Coast Guardsman,
We are the United States Coast Guard!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Nameless3450
Latest Posts Comments Articles
    • Gisteron (Last post by Jestor)
    • Quote: Quote: Most conversations in this forum are popularity contests where the goal is to sound more appropriate, politically correct, mystical, spiritual, wise and whatnot. Rare are those who dare explore crazy ideas just or the sake of it. Most? I don't think so. Most are decent enough people they want to learn and understand, though we are an eclectic group. Some people post for: shock, controversy, contrarian, argument, troll, to hear their own voice, to look smart or think their cleaver, some are all about themselves. I'd like to think this is a place for explorers of all types. You know what, I was thinking about this... I tell what I think, and Rickie tells what he thinks, and we compare... We dont tear each others thoughts down, we talk up, and compare these things becasue people are more willing to share when you show interest, and have a common theme... Where as GIsteron, Khaos, and others, only question, putting forth no real thoughts of their own.... Yes, they share, but mostly, they tear down... :pinch:
    • What form(s) of magic(k) do you practice? (Last post by Kamizu)
    • Quote: "Core" shamanism is specifically what I was referring to earlier, as a lot of people got suuuuuuper offended that these completely disparate cultures with disparate (though vaguely similar) concepts and ideologies all got their animism lumped in together with actual shamans (i.e., the Mongolian style, where the word originated), with their term being slapped across every kind of animism but Shinto. I don't disagree with Michael Harner's distillation of animistic technique and ritual in The Way of the Shaman, but any time you lump wildly different groups of people together, I get twitchy. Also note that "plastic shamanism" is a term that denotes exploitation, either by the "shamans" themselves, or the teachers/authors/etc. they learn from. It's not an across-the-board slur, by any means, but it has broadened slightly to include ignorant "shamans"-- something core shamanism is good at creating if its adherents don't do a little extra homework. Also also... The person responsible for drafting this message was sacked. ...it's worth noting that "shaman" is a title that isn't taken lightly, or bestowed upon oneself. There are a scad of things that make a shaman, and those of us who haven't experienced them should remember that what we do is simply "shamanic"; a step on the same path as they walk. That Plastic Shaman thing is scary. I'm not lookin' to lead or claim I can heal, it's mostly a tool for me and honestly it's not so far different than what I've been doing a lot of my life, just more focused and easer to hear now that I have direction (and lack of outside opposition) I am not a Shaman nor will I ever be XD I asked my guide, because I was curious and wanted to feel special. He told me "No." I was quite disappointed at the time! But I read in one of the books that the title of Shaman was along the lines of Guru/Master. One that others award and not one that you give yourself. It was in one of the first books I read so I've always been very careful to avoid calling myself that...it gets awkward hahahahaha. So use to saying "I'm a Christian" that I have to work hard at restructuring my sentences hehe. Perhaps "I am studying shamanic principals/ideals/practices" may be a better way to explain where I'm at at the moment :) By no means do I intend to cheapen the cultures that employ shamanism! Or any of the shamanic systems. Sorry if I came off that way. I'm still bumbling my way through things as I learn XD
    • Loosing a Loved one (Last post by rugadd)
    • Death is not death. I cannot say I lost them, only that I lost who they once were...but really, that happens every day. I may get shit for saying this, but I'm not devastated, or even stopped by this. I think the saddest thing for most people is the finality of not getting to make new memories with the one that died, or if they were particularly loving, one can no longer count on their aid. Both are not true, but I'm sure most people think they are.
    • Helping the Homeless? (Last post by peace)
    • Where I live, California has homeless shelters and homes where they have volunteers who help feed the homeless. I on the other hand, helped upgrade one by changing it to a luxurious, fancy hotel lobby style. This place now has added chandeliers, no dirty smells, the floors and polished and cleaned daily, in house bathrooms with showers and even tables for you to sit in. This place is now hoping with homeless people. It is now visited by 10,000 homeless visitors daily. All thanks to me, the world is a little brighter, happier and nicer.
    • Pop killed the Rock star (Last post by Arcade)
    • I listen to music throughout 99% of my day (if at all possible) :) and buy a fair amount of music, and good rock bands are definitely still out there and abundant (in fact, I have a number of friends in relatively successful local rock bands). In many ways, the music industry has moved from the television and radio model (which is quickly becoming antiquated) to the internet model of music distribution. A large percentage of bands and musicians are now on labels of their own creation because they want to skip the greedy middlemen. Sadly, pop culture has always been about what they want you to listen to (as Senan well knows). I worked at a Top 40 radio station throughout high school and they really did have 40 songs they played each day (with few exceptions). Rock will never die. There will always be people, like yourself, with a love for the classic rock sound. ;) Rock will probably continue to evolve in some ways, and at this point in pop culture that means integrating electronic sounds. I love electronic music, so I initially came at this from a slightly different point of view... where electronic musicians introduced me to rock. I now listen to hybrid bands (rock and electronic) and bands that only use instruments (along with the necessary amplification equipment when they perform). Personally, I think there's room in the world for all of them. :) It sucks that the TV stations you like have changed their focus so dramatically. For better or worse, you may have to change your focus to find what you're looking for online or at live performances.
    • Connor is back (Last post by Psyddhattha)
    • My brother trained as an opera singer then after college pretty much gave up singing and did various jobs for ten years or so. He's just got back into it and although he is less financially stable he seems much happier than he has in years now he's teaching and performing again. Follow your bliss man!
    • Best star wars movie/scene (Last post by Luthien)
    • I also like the scene where the two Skywalkers, father and son, duel it out and the father's love of his son empowered him to save the son.
    • What Jedi in canon reminded Light their entire car... (Last post by Streen)
    • It depends on what you consider canon. Here's a list off the top of my head: Streen Tionne Kam Solusar Anakin Solo Corran Horn (aka Keiran Halcyon) Leia Organa Solo more I just looked up (but should have remembered) :dry: : Dorsk 81 Kirana Ti Cilghal Ganner Rhysode Tenel Ka Lowbacca Ben Skywalker That's a surprisingly short list though, considering how many Jedi there are in the EU. I found that all the others I read about did have a brush with the dark side. Not a great track record, eh?
    • Elite: Dangerous (Last post by Streen)
    • If I'm not mistaken, open Beta starts today. Ya'll might want to see if you can download it :D Adder, have you played the game? I ask because you basically described exactly what the game is like. Energy weapons, ballistics, energy transfers between weapons, shields, and engines, gimballed weapons, locking weapons on target... that's all fact. Of course, you have to make money in-game to afford the better weapon systems and larger and/or higher quality ships. The one thing I love about the game is the same thing I hate. It's complicated. I've been playing for a couple weeks now and I still haven't figured out what I'm supposed to do, or some of the more unclear functions of my ship. But then, that's cool, because it means I can do whatever I want. The main problem is making money/trading. Still haven't figured that out either. Quote: Are there 400 thousand million stars in this galaxy ? :huh: I'm sorry, LOL. :silly: The game doesn't take place in OUR galaxy. The number is right, as the game claims, though I imagine it is somehow randomized since it would be impossible to program 400 billion star systems. One last point to make is that to play the game properly, you'll need a joystick. I've tried playing with a mouse, xbox controller, and one low-end joystick. I wasn't satisfied with control of my ship until I got the Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X Flight Stick. It comes with a separate throttle and even more buttons :laugh: It's pretty hardcore. There are much more complex and expensive ones though, so this was a compromise. If any of you guys end up playing, let me know!
    • Quick Question (Last post by tzb)
    • For the Krishnamurti, yes: www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teach...hp?tid=1294&chid=993 For the Watts, you'd need to look at something like this: www.amazon.com/Still-Mind-An-Introductio...tation/dp/1577312147 - it's not the exact same material but I imagine it's near enough for the IP's purposes.
    • Everything is Made of Energy Stuff (Last post by Adder)
    • Quote: Quote: Different people might get different things from questions, what is 'truth' is best described as whatever helps that person progress closer to moving forward in whatever areas of their life they seek improvement. Doesn't mean we have to ignore the facts in that process. So what if there is a proposition that is not factual but does help the person in the sense that you suggest? By your definition it would then still be truth. So while truth doesn't necessarily conflict with reality, it can, by your standard. Now do you yourself find that an appropriate standard? I suppose this comes down to semantics anyway. Surely there may potentially be partially beneficial things that are in conflict with reality, its just that I couldn't label them as "true" from that point on, because my definition of truth is one that does require conformity with reality. I think growth is the drive of human learning, so its sort of in that context. In complexity 'correct' does not have to mean completely true, it can just mean movement towards truth.... depends on what is being asked I suppose. Not everything has empirical standards to be assessed by, but yes I think I understand what your saying - its why I tried to make a subtle differentiation by using two different terms, between truth (how I used it then) and fact.
    • This Week In Science (Last post by Khaos)
    • SIMPLE BLOOD TEST COULD DETECT ALL TYPES OF CANCER Researchers in the U.K. think we’re getting close to a simple blood test that can diagnose all cancers. Early results show how it can identify cancer and pre-cancerous conditions in patients with melanoma, colon cancer, and lung cancer. By helping doctors rule out certain diseases in people with symptoms, the test could save time and money while preventing the need for painful, invasive procedures like biopsies. Known as the Lymphocyte Genome Sensitivity (LGS) assay, the test looks at white blood cells called lymphocytes and the damage caused to their DNA when subjected to different intensities of ultraviolet light, which causes damage to genetic material. “White blood cells are part of the body’s natural defense system. We know that they are under stress when they are fighting cancer or other diseases, so I wondered whether anything measurable could be seen if we put them under further stress with UVA light,” Diana Anderson from the University of Bradford explains in a news release. Anderson and colleagues examined the lymphocyte responses in 208 people: 20 with melanoma, 34 with colon cancer, 4 with lung cancer, 18 with suspected melanoma, 28 with polyposis, and 10 with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), and 94 healthy volunteers. The samples were coded, randomized, and then exposed to UVA light through five different depths of agar. They found a clear distinction between the damage to the white blood cells from patients with cancer, patients with pre-cancerous conditions, and healthy patients. “People with cancer have DNA which is more easily damaged by ultraviolet light than other people,” Anderson says, “so the test shows the sensitivity to damage of all the DNA -- the genome -- in a cell.” UVA damage shows up in the form of pieces of DNA pulled in an electric field towards the positive end of the field; this creates a tail like the one you’d see trailing a comet. In the LGS test, the longer the comet-like tail, the more DNA damage. The measurements correlated to those patients who were ultimately diagnosed with cancer (58), those with pre-cancerous conditions (56), and those who don’t have cancer (94). A clinical trial is currently underway to test the effectiveness of the LGS test at predicting which patients would benefit from a colonoscopy. The work was published in the FASEB Journal last week Read more at www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/s...#Er4DyxelXKlfkt3D.99

There are 470 visitors, 8 guests and 30 members online (one is in chat): Akkarin, Octagon, steamboat28, Jestor, Brian, Wescli Wardest, Learn_To_Know, Desolous, Gisteron, Proteus, Luthien, rugadd, Alexandre Orion, Rosalyn J, scott777ab, PatrickB, Khaos, Whyte Horse, Arcade, Buvan, Llama Su, Kamizu, Kohadre, Edan, peace, benedictveritas, Trice Corbel, Calanon, TambelSadera, porkapon763, AlexanderJ.W, Emperit, nexust.

Follow Us