The Problem with Black Lives Matter

Lykeios wrote: I am not racist.

You are white: you cant NOT BE racist. You are racist because, as a white person, you benefit from a racist system.
Even if youre not racist on purpose, youre unconsciously racist and thats still racist. (Even though the IAT has been debunked)



Not only that, but youre also part of the only racial group that CAN be racist: whites. No person of any other racial group is even capable of being racist no matter how much individual authority they have in society because their group identity doesnt hold the institutional power necessary to make racism possible.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/20/ohio-state-workshop-tells-students-only-whites-can-be-racists/



I am not exaggerating or mis-characterizing the rhetoric one bit. This is hte problem with BLM and all the other extreme leftist movements right now which are claiming social justice and equality. They are fundamentally racist themselves, irrational and divisive. They increase the amount of racism in the world instead of decreasing it.

Bill Cosby


Right off the bat, here is my bias...

The idea that Bill Cosby would sexually assault women is uncomfortable to me partially because he is a noteworthy member of my community.

That being said, there were a lot of allegations that made him seem guilty. There were too many to ignore. Once so many women were speaking out most people, black people included, had already concluded at least some degree of guilt.

Why is this relevant to BLM? Well let's see...

In more than a few cases the women LIED.

Now already, if there was no hypocrisy in America, the entire case against Cosby should have been endlessly and mercilessly attacked. People should have been outraged that the Cosby show was taken off air and Cosby punished financially, etc.

No, anyone who was lying was ignored for the chance that even one of the women were telling the truth.

How much time did most people spend trying to debunk the case? The only reason I know about the many lies and inaccuracies is because of my bias working in Bill's favor. When Michael Jackson was on trial in the media and in just about every social circle I had a bias then too, but I had less connection with MJ because honestly I was young and thought he was weird. And honestly... he was weird. But when I thought he might be innocent I defended him. It's not impossible that human beings didn't look at MJ and Cosby and see dollar signs. In fact, I would venture to say that most people who don't exploit others still occasionally have the thought about how they could. In fact, in the case of Cosby, there was a woman who came out in an interview saying that someone tried to pay her to seduce and set Cosby up. Maybe she was lying. That's possible. But she didn't have a motive to lie. And suddenly all these things were coming out about Cosby so many years after anything allegedly happened?

"Oh Bill Cosby was too powerful!" No, at the time, he wasn't. And the thought of a white woman getting sexually assaulted by a black man... there is no amount of power Cosby could have ever had to negate that. Whole communities of black people were burned down over such allegations.

But jokes about Bill Cosby drugging women flooded the internet. I wont lie. I made a few myself.

The only thing that Cosby ever admitted to were drugs that many people were doing at time voluntarily. Today, people go to the clubs, pass around a little ecstasy or whatever. That's what people do. I wouldn't. Maybe you wouldn't. But to a lot of people that's what partying means; getting intoxicated and doing things they wouldn't do sober. I used to be a fierce opponent of men getting women drunk in bars. I was young and in my young mind I saw the men as predators and the women as prey. I mean why do you need to intoxicate a woman by buying her multiple drinks if she was going to sleep with you anyway? To me that still sounds perfectly logical, and yet, what I know about women now makes it far more complex. Women often go to bars for that exact outcome to happen. Maybe they'll regret who they slept with later and use the 'beer goggles' excuse but they went there wanting to have sex and they willingly participated in lowering their inhibitions in a society that tends to unfairly denigrate women for being promiscuous.

No one knows this better than iconic entertainers. They have human bodies thrown at them while others have to pay for it in different ways. Sometimes, their name alone is enough to get them laid.

Now make no mistake about it. Bill Cosby can have all the mistrials he wants. He could even be found completely not guilty. However, we all know he's destroyed because of this and there is no hope of rehabilitating his image. MAYBE after he dies some prominent reporter will dig into the women and try to figure out what happened. And let's be clear. Many of these women aren't saying they were raped by Cosby but rather that he did something they felt at the time was inappropriate.

But the point is, that the mere effect of having so many people speak out against one man.... done. Destroyed.

Evidence ignored. Accuracy not important. The accusers were treated like they were victims.

Many, many, many, many black people have spoken out against bad cops in an environment in which black men especially do not feel safe. One black woman's fear was so heightened that she was completely irrational and precipitated her own death in front of her child (even though one could argue that killing her was avoidable). In this case the bias of America is exposed. The victims who were killed are treated like accusers. Their blood cries out to the rest of us for justice, but... for many people they just have to find some criticism to justify the officer's use of deadly force. On one hand, it doesn't effect them, but on the other hand... I think the reality is that they could imagine themselves pulling the trigger. They could imagine themselves feeling threatened by that situation. They can empathize with the cops based on their own unspoken fear.

But here's an interesting statistic...

Statistics show that 1 in 4 women in the US is a victim of domestic violence, those numbers jump to 1 in 2 if they are married to a cop.

Police beat their OWN wives or girlfriends at DOUBLE the national rate and they're the ones who are trained to deescalate situations?! If you're willing to do that to someone you love... what would you do to someone you hate? What would you do to someone who you think is responsible for most of the crime? Last time I checked, domestic violence and abuse was criminal. Could they be doing it possibly because they have more of a chance to see themselves as above the law? Is that possible? And if that's possible how might they bend or break the law when pursuing someone who they desire to see as being a worse person than them?

Time out for accuracy... am I saying all police beat their wives? Of course not. I shouldn't have to say this, but apparently I do.

We have police officers with motive. We know that power corrupts and police officers have a lot of power to enforce laws. We also know that there is a financial motive to bring in money for their districts as well as quotas that incentivize racial profiling. We know all these things.

But when its one man like Bill Cosby or Michael Jackson and many accusers they MUST be guilty while the police... according to the bias of most Americans, must be given the benefit of the doubt, and gotta be super accurate because maybe this big black guy thought he could kill 3-4 trained police officers with his bare hands and then flee to avoid arrest. You've seen the Hulk. Maybe a black guy in a car was thinking, rather than getting a ticket, let me just murder this white cop with a kid in the back seat. Maybe this little black kid in a park was about to go on some kind of terrorist rampage like some kind of child soldier version of Terminator.

We go out on a limb to defend the police when there are hundreds of current allegations and so many past allegations that black people would laugh at the idea of keeping count. So let's be honest. There is an overt bias against BLM because there is a covert bias against black people. We can all sit here and come up with justifications or we can accept the truth that is reflected in both personal and institutional racism. There is a bias against black people that predetermines guilt to the extent that black people are guilty until proven innocent and we are thought to be predators until you get to know us. And until you do, ironically, it is we who are the prey. And every white person isn't uniformly guilty but most people, of all races, spend a lot of time looking the other way. And that... is why we protest.

Much respect and love to the many people on this forum who are not racist or who have a very low degree of bias. It's not about being perfect. It's about working together for a more perfect union. As much as I might seem agitated or heated on this subject, I have to be more passionate and long-winded because there are not many voices here who are like mine. And being in the minority position makes it very difficult to be heard or understood because so many seem to oppose whatever it is you're trying to say. But I do appreciate the vast majority of you who let me say what I have to say without complaining too much about how inartfully I may at times say it. And maybe there is a better way. But until we know what that is we can only do the best we know how to do.

That last post is why ive mostly withdrawn from this topic. I give specific talking points and wait for a reply, and when the reply comes it is very long and yet doesnt address anything ive brought up. I dont care about Bill Cosby. Once he admitted to buying roofies and putting them in womens drinks my mind was made up.. thats not a party tactic its a rape tactic so f**k bill cosby. Not because he is black but because he slipped rooffies into womens drinks to sexually assault them. And Im not afraid of people calling me a racist or thinking that I am a racist. If you think i am a racist that simply convinces me that you are a fool.

Yes, the police in America are out of control.



http://www.copwatch.org/

The people with the least amount of money and influence are the ones most vulnerable to abuse and the ones least likely to see justice when abused. Ive said this before and will say it again: the solution to racism is in the economic achievement and social integration of of blacks. Education and investment opportunities for ambitious and talented black people and increased representation of blacks in the police, in politics, and in the various core industries of our economy will result in an affluent and socially influential black population.

Rioting is not ok and running from the cops is not allowed. Communist inspired movements which seek to transpose the idea of the proletariat vs the bourgeoisie onto the American landscape through group vs group identity politics are not necessary or even healthy for our society

Nothing ive said so far has gotten a fair response so im not expecting much, but thats my position.

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Lykeios wrote: I am not racist.

You are white: you cant NOT BE racist. You are racist because, as a white person, you benefit from a racist system.
Even if youre not racist on purpose, youre unconsciously racist and thats still racist. (Even though the IAT has been debunked)

Warning: Spoiler!

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/01/stop-kidding-yourself-white-people-are-racist-6895283/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-minds/201101/does-the-implicit-association-test-iat-really-measure-racial-prejudice

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/443723/implicit-bias-debunked-study-disputes-effects-unconscious-prejudice

Not only that, but youre also part of the only racial group that CAN be racist: whites. No person of any other racial group is even capable of being racist no matter how much individual authority they have in society because their group identity doesnt hold the institutional power necessary to make racism possible.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/20/ohio-state-workshop-tells-students-only-whites-can-be-racists/

Warning: Spoiler!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVI9Phz_ENo

I am not exaggerating or mis-characterizing the rhetoric one bit. This is hte problem with BLM and all the other extreme leftist movements right now which are claiming social justice and equality. They are fundamentally racist themselves, irrational and divisive. They increase the amount of racism in the world instead of decreasing it.

I don't think generalizing every "extreme leftist movement" is a logical way to discuss this. Yes there are people involved with BLM that are in fact racist. Yes non Caucasian people can be racist. Yes just because you are Caucasian doesn't mean you are racist. There is no evidence to support these absolute conditions. These views can and do hurt the cause.

But that doesn't diminish the cause of you keep people accountable for their actions and don't project that on to others. The same way many Caucasians grow angry when blamed for slavery or racism. The same way many peaceful Muslims get blamed for terrorism. Blaming everyone for the actions of a portion is not logical.

Look up the peaceful aspects of BLM that don't make the propaganda headlines. Check out the petitions and sit ins. The authorized protests and social media outreach groups. Check out the volunteers trying to fix the cities or raise money for the schools that are dying.

The media has become a business. The headlines are designed to sell, not inform. Unfortunately it's now our responsibility to dig deeper and search for the facts.

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Lykeios wrote: I am not racist.

You are white: you cant NOT BE racist. You are racist because, as a white person, you benefit from a racist system.
Even if youre not racist on purpose, youre unconsciously racist and thats still racist. (Even though the IAT has been debunked)

Not only that, but youre also part of the only racial group that CAN be racist: whites. No person of any other racial group is even capable of being racist no matter how much individual authority they have in society because their group identity doesnt hold the institutional power necessary to make racism possible.

I am not exaggerating or mis-characterizing the rhetoric one bit. This is hte problem with BLM and all the other extreme leftist movements right now which are claiming social justice and equality. They are fundamentally racist themselves, irrational and divisive. They increase the amount of racism in the world instead of decreasing it.

I'd like to offer you this correction, in love. Or at least that is my intent.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/20/ohio-state-workshop-tells-students-only-whites-can-be-racists/

I read this article.

The title of the article is "Ohio State Workshop Tells Students Only Whites Can Be Racists"

So was this "rhetoric" aimed at hyping up black people to protest? No, it was a lecture to 20 people; 19 of which were white students.

Racism is a very charged word that is confused with racial prejudice and discrimination. Whether the confusion is engineered, I cannot say. I will say it seems rather convenient to me though.

So what is racism?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi9imppcCUc

Racism is a competitive relationship that is power based. It is confused for not liking someone because of their skin color because it has race in the name. Many black people don't even know what racism is. So occasionally you'll have a few trying to educate others.

So when they say "black people can't be racist", please do not get confused. They're not saying that black people cannot racially profile, engage in racial stereotypes, hate or dislike based on race, or be prejudicial or discriminate based on race. These are different concepts that people generally do not understand and are not mutually exclusive.

Because "racist" has come to be such an emotionally charged word it is quite understandable that no one wants to be called a racist. Even some of the white protestors with the tiki torches have said they didn't want to be identified as racist; they are just "pro-white".

When I was young I used to think that a racist was someone who thought their race was superior to others. But again, this is not the definition of racism held by everyone and the definition I was given as a child was really the same over simplified mess that informs most people.

Racism doesn't mean that you think your race is the "master race". It really just means that you are part of a system, conscious or unconscious, that collectively maintains "white supremacy".

No one person built America. And it's hard when Americans, as individuals, have to face the hatred for some of the things our government has done in our name. However, as an American, it's a difficult argument for me to attempt, to separate myself from democratically elected officials making decisions that in their minds represent their constituents. If I was taken hostage by Isis, I don't know what I'd say. I could say I disagree with the murder of innocent Muslims, especially women and children. But I cannot deny my status as an American citizen and that my tax dollars helped pay for that.

I personally feel like it's not fair because I am in the majority, to take responsibility for the collective will of the majority but it's my responsibility to influence the views of the majority and if I fail to do that I'm still responsible for what my nation does. I don't personally feel it's fair to say whites are racist. I don't agree with that wording, wherever you may have heard it. However, I know that the term is being used in order to confer legitimate responsibility to all the members of the white race for all the things that the white race has collectively done. Racism and white supremacy happen to be part of that legacy, just like the violence in Chicago will forever be a stain on the black community. We can argue about the role government plays on the economy in the inner city and how money is taken from one place to benefit another and schools are failing and all of that. And there are legitimate arguments on both sides. But as long as there are black people doing bad things they're never going to be judged individually. Not going to happen. They're black. I may wish they weren't but they are and the black community has a responsibility to do something about it; whether the police represent our agenda or not.

The first article you posted was a good article... written by a white person in reaction to L’Oreal model Munroe Bergdorf said which was:

When I stated that “all white people are racist”, I was addressing that fact that western society as a whole, is a SYSTEM rooted in white supremacy – designed to benefit, prioritise and protect white people before anyone of any other race. Unknowingly, white people are SOCIALISED to be racist from birth onwards. It is not something genetic. No one is born racist. We also live in a society where men are SOCIALISED to be sexist. Women are SOCIALISED to be submissive. Gay people are SOCIALISED to be ashamed of their sexuality due to heterosexual people’s homophobia. Cisgender people are SOCIALISED to be transphobic. We do not need to be this way. We are not born this way and we can learn to reject it. We are just socially conditioned to think this way from an early age. With the right education, empathy and open mindedness we can unlearn these socialisations and live a life where we don’t oppress others and see things from other people’s points of view.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-minds/201101/does-the-implicit-association-test-iat-really-measure-racial-prejudice
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/443723/implicit-bias-debunked-study-disputes-effects-unconscious-prejudice

These 2 articles deal mainly with the idea that a particular test can predict behavior. I agree with the authors myself. I do believe in conditioned behavior, responses, etc. however, testing them through a conscious action seems silly to me. Your conscious mind isn't exactly a slave to your subconscious. It can overrule many automatic reflexes based on what you consciously think the right answer is. If you're testing me on how many people I'm going to shoot wearing a hijab just the fact that I'm taking a test would help me target those people less because I'm trying to pass a test. Often in schools testing fails because teachers train students for the tests themselves which doesn't mean they truly have a grasp on the subject matter. The human brain works based on association. As a programmer it is impossible to convince me that we are not programmed by our experiences. There's no reason for children to have racist attitudes (and in this case the definition of racism is not the same as the one taught at Ohio State or the one in the Dr. Claude Anderson video I shared) except that they learn them from their parents and friends. It is inherited and passed on because whites wont stop reacting to what they see black people doing without applying what they see to an entire race. On the other hand, most of my fiance's son's exposure (who has lived with me for the past 2 years now) has unfortunately been the result of personal experiences. He gets into arguments with other kids and suddenly he's whatever slur they've heard and he reacts by using whatever he's heard.

But there is no BLM rhetoric that all white people are racists in ANY definition that expresses a thought that didn't already exist because of our interactions with whites. If it's new to you it is only because you were unaware it existed before. And if it shocks you then you should imagine our shock at the things we hear from whites who don't claim to be either white supremacists or racists. At the end of the day we're not going to solve this through various means of slander. We're going to solve it by taking responsibility for things that we don't necessarily want to see as being our problem.

OB1Shinobi wrote: That last post is why ive mostly withdrawn from this topic. I give specific talking points and wait for a reply, and when the reply comes it is very long and yet doesnt address anything ive brought up. I dont care about Bill Cosby. Once he admitted to buying roofies and putting them in womens drinks my mind was made up.. thats not a party tactic its a rape tactic so f**k bill cosby. Not because he is black but because he slipped rooffies into womens drinks to sexually assault them. And Im not afraid of people calling me a racist or thinking that I am a racist. If you think i am a racist that simply convinces me that you are a fool.

Yes, the police in America are out of control.

Warning: Spoiler!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcIDO-BzWkw

http://www.copwatch.org/

The people with the least amount of money and influence are the ones most vulnerable to abuse and the ones least likely to see justice when abused. Ive said this before and will say it again: the solution to racism is in the economic achievement and social integration of of blacks. Education and investment opportunities for ambitious and talented black people and increased representation of blacks in the police, in politics, and in the various core industries of our economy will result in an affluent and socially influential black population.

Rioting is not ok and running from the cops is not allowed. Communist inspired movements which seek to transpose the idea of the proletariat vs the bourgeoisie onto the American landscape through group vs group identity politics are not necessary or even healthy for our society

Nothing ive said so far has gotten a fair response so im not expecting much, but thats my position.

First, I apologize to you OB1Shinobi, but that reply was not in response to you at all. In fact, while I was writing it I didn't know your post even existed. Once I did see it I wrote a response to address what you said. These are obviously lengthy and therefore not quick responses. I apologize for that.

Secondly, if there is a view that this thread is one side vs another, I apologize to you if you got that impression from me. I actually think everyone has been wonderful in this thread. I think the idea that we should always judge success by how many people share our views isn't logical. Some of what I say is venting based on what I've heard, not just here, but from other sources. But I speak more here because my expectations of the people here are much higher. The people are here are generally more enlightened. Not perfect, just as I am not perfect; but more enlightened.

Thirdly, sometimes all we need to hear 'you' say is what you just said about police being out of control. The problem is that black people, not just me personally, are used to that "...but" and a lot of times it's what comes after ANY measure of agreement that is offensive to us. We go to sleep one day thinking we're protesting injustice and inequality and the next day we wake up to find our president telling us we're protesting the flag and the troops. Not only is this news to us but the problem is that it poisons the argument, ends conversations, and gives people justification to continue to ignore the problem by making the protest the new problem. This is the part I am the most sensitive to because it's like we cannot win to save our lives... literally... TO SAVE OUR LIVES.

Lastly, I agree 80% with your solution. I have personally been working within the economic empowerment side of things. But I can also tell you that a large part of the problem is envy and jealousy and fear. It was the same when workers unions first got started. The progress made by black people is only half the story. The other half is the resistance. The other half is white workers feeling displaced like the popular South Park chant "They took our jobs!" If you understand it, this sentiment is very real and is a result of white privilege. The idea that Tom should be guaranteed a job in this economy because he's a particular color is racist. If there's truly no difference between Tom and Jermaine as they were both born here then the job should go to the most qualified unless there is some other mitigating factor that should be considered; like if the company isn't hiring black people because the guy doing the actual hiring thinks black people are lazy. This, of course, comes from an attitude that some whites have, that after no longer being forced to do back breaking work all day and getting whipped if we did not reach quotas, that we feel entitled and are less productive. You, being of sound mind, probably find this view repugnant. Maybe you've never heard such a stereotype in your life. We have.

Obamacare was imperfect but the CBO said it was stable. The republicans ranted about how it was in a death spiral but instead of letting it die, Trump did what we knew he was going to do. He sabotaged it. The whole point of insurance is companies taking from as many healthy people as possible to cover their liability for the riskier pool. Relevance? Black people are often treated like Obamacare. It's not enough to say black people are this or that or, for some, believe themselves superior. They also use their position to sabotage and confirmation bias to justify individual decisions that, at scale, create massive problems. This is the part it seems like we get the most resistance on when it comes to believing our report. People, in general, would rather believe it's not happening and that we're all confused by mischievous leftwing indoctrination. Those who get abused the most don't have time to listen to republicans or democrats talk and they don't trust either one.

Bill Cosby didn't "roofie" anyone. This idea of cosby slipping pills into women's drinks who were, at the time, trying to get something from a relationship with him, is based on their allegations which have never been proven. This is why I brought up Bill Cosby. Because of the ease at which everyone assumed his guilt. He had literally no presumption of innocence. There are multiple events being conflated that involved consensual use of party drugs with accusations of women finding themselves asleep in his company. Most of them are simply not credible but we tend to overlook that. In fact, most of the women's stories haven't really been critically investigated. Constand's story has a lot of issues, but mainly the amount of contact that she had after the alleged assault.

Am I going to convince you he's innocent? Of course not. Your mind was already made up. The point was how easy it was for people to make up their minds on the strength of so many women coming out against him. And that was the whole point. It doesn't matter how many witnesses black people produce to prove injustice or how many black men freed from prison by new evidence. The majority of America tend to side with the police just like they side with the troops. You think the troops have never done anything morally wrong in foreign countries? I've heard it from them myself. There are bad soldiers and there are bad cops. And if we don't want the reputation of the whole to be brought down by the few then we need to make sure the few are always brought to justice.

Writing this took some time and effort and im tired and busy. I am not personally opposed to any individuals here. I will reply again when I am able but it may not be today.

JLSpinner wrote: I don't think generalizing every "extreme leftist movement" is a logical way to discuss this.

Its perfectly logical to distinguish between extremist groups and more moderate groups. Im GUESSING that you meant to say something like: "i dont think its fair to apply the label "extreme leftist movement" to every group that speaks out against racism", which would be a statement that i agree with.
Is BLM an extreme leftist group? Well, there are enough extreme leftists in the various BLM orgs. that its understandable for someone to think so. Heres an example:




The words of Michaela Brown, a spokeswoman for Baltimore Bloc, one of the group's partner organizations: "We seek radical transformation, not reactionary reform," said to TIME magazine.

BLM wants:
1. Reparations for All "Past and Continuing Harms" to the Black Community
(basically: free school, technical and vocational training, debt forgiveness, and a "guaranteed minimum livable income" check for all black people)


2. The End of the "War Against Black People"
(no more death penalty, no more having to post bail when arrested, no financial charges to be incurred when arrested, and the best part: " an end to all jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons as we know them."
There are some other things in there that i agree with although i dont know how to make them happen, such as addressing the privatization of prisons and the militarization of the police. But what i can tell you for sure based on the overall message is that BLM is NOT going to produce a practical solution to those issues.



3. Divestment from the institutions that criminalize, cage and harm black people; and investment in the education, health and safety of black people.
(cut police forces, release and expunge the records of everyone ever convicted of any drug trafficking charges or prostitution charges, and give them reparations for having been arrested and convicted, universal health care (including the guaranteed right to abortions), free college, "special protections" for queer and trans people, oh yeah and while youre at it, stop using fossil fuels and cut the military budget)



4. The Restructuring of the Economy to Produce "Economic Justice" for Blacks
Restructure the tax codes to "redistribute" American wealth to blacks. Basically give a bunch of money to all black people. End of our existing trade agreements and end of the Trans-Pacific partnership.



5. Complete Community Control
(the people being arrested get to fire the people arresting them)



6. Independent black political power and black self-determination in all areas of society.
(I have no idea how far they really want to take this but the terminology (and references to "political prisoners" and COINTELPRO) is suggestive of some kind of separatist end game aka Nation of Islam and Black Panther type stuff. "Black Separatism = blacks get their own country, either a designated part of USA or some other land somehwere else. In this aim the black racists and the white racists actually are on the same side, both want white and black separatism. Thats a possibility based on the language used in this point but they dont actually say that so...)


Sources

JLSpinner wrote: Yes there are people involved with BLM that are in fact racist. Yes non Caucasian people can be racist. Yes just because you are Caucasian doesn't mean you are racist. There is no evidence to support these absolute conditions. These views can and do hurt the cause.

There doesnt need to be evidence: its obvious. The mere fact that the White House is called the "WHITE House" proves it all.
THAT WAS SACRASM.. lol..
What i am saying is that the modern left has accepted irrational and racist ideology. You read ZealotX's reply -- racism USED TO MEAN "judging people by their race"... NOW it means "being white". Its not rational and its not just, and thats my point.

JLSpinner wrote: But that doesn't diminish the cause of you keep people accountable for their actions and don't project that on to others.

Im not sure what this sentence means but i agree that individuals should be judged as individuals and held accountable only for their own actions and ideas.

JLSpinner wrote: The same way many Caucasians grow angry when blamed for slavery or racism. The same way many peaceful Muslims get blamed for terrorism. Blaming everyone for the actions of a portion is not logical.

A movement is defined by its leadership... every nazi that fought in the war wasnt an evil person, but Hitler was an evil, crazy sonofabitch, and all the "good people" who fought for him gave him the ability to enact his evil onto the world and onto the Jews. If you had sorted through all of Hitlers talking points and stated aims, and especially if you had talked to all the everyday people who supported him, you would have found much that seemed reasonable and logical and even much you could agree with. But where was it heading all along?
Im not equating BLM with Hitler, im using the nazis as an example because they are a perfect example of the principle im referencing.

JLSpinner wrote: Look up the peaceful aspects of BLM that don't make the propaganda headlines. Check out the petitions and sit ins. The authorized protests and social media outreach groups. Check out the volunteers trying to fix the cities or raise money for the schools that are dying.

Ive addressed that i think

JLSpinner wrote: The media has become a business. The headlines are designed to sell, not inform. Unfortunately it's now our responsibility to dig deeper and search for the facts.

Including the ones which tell you how wonderful and benign and well meaning BLM is. Those are ALSO headlines, designed to sell. If you believe BLM has the right approach then feel free to be supportive of them in any way that you can. I agree with the basic aim of reducing racism (really reducing actual racism, not just disempowering white people). I agree with reforming the prison industry, ending the drug war, changing the financing rules of politics, and all kinds of other lofty changes BLM says they want. But as ive said, they are nested within a larger movement that i consider reprehensible.

Ultimately, my biggest complaint about them probably is simply that there doesnt seem to be a more rational and less divisive alternative. Many BLM mean well, but the movement in embedded within a nefarious ideology which has infected the left in the recent decade. It is the communist idea of class conflict being superimposed onto American society. The original idea was that civilization is a battle for power between the poor proletariat (worker) and the evil, exploitative bourgeois (the rich). That theory collapsed in the second world war, but the marxists, instead of admitting they were wrong, modified their theory and have been teaching it in western universities under the auspices of "social justice".. now we have an entire generation of people convinced that the entire of western civilization is one long, concerted effort by white men to oppress and exploit women, and all people of all other races.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA

I literally give up.

I will never try to stand up for the rights of marginalized peoples again. Just because my skin isn't "dark" I'm racist?

You know what I have to say to that?

Thank you all for convincing me that whatever I can do will never be enough and that I shouldn't even TRY to talk about "racial" issues because I happen to be "white." Which is bull**** in and of itself for a couple of reasons which I'm not even going to bother to point out.

Count me out of further discussions on this topic or any other related to "race." (A cultural belief in something that doesn't even EXIST in reality. There is ONE race: the human race.)

OB1Shinobi wrote: Writing this took some time and effort and im tired and busy. I am not personally opposed to any individuals here. I will reply again when I am able but it may not be today.

JLSpinner wrote: I don't think generalizing every "extreme leftist movement" is a logical way to discuss this.

Its perfectly logical to distinguish between extremist groups and more moderate groups. Im GUESSING that you meant to say something like: "i dont think its fair to apply the label "extreme leftist movement" to every group that speaks out against racism", which would be a statement that i agree with.
Is BLM an extreme leftist group? Well, there are enough extreme leftists in the various BLM orgs. that its understandable for someone to think so. Heres an example:

Warning: Spoiler!

White people, here are 10 requests from a Black Lives Matter leader

Some things I’m thinking about that should change (in that Southern, black grandmama voice):

1. White people, if you don’t have any descendants, will your property to a black or brown family. Preferably one that lives in generational poverty.

2. White people, if you’re inheriting property you intend to sell upon acceptance, give it to a black or brown family. You’re bound to make that money in some other white privileged way.

3. If you are a developer or realty owner of multi-family housing, build a sustainable complex in a black or brown blighted neighborhood and let black and brown people live in it for free.

4. White people, if you can afford to downsize, give up the home you own to a black or brown family. Preferably a family from generational poverty.

5. White people, if any of the people you intend to leave your property to are racists assholes, change the will, and will your property to a black or brown family. Preferably a family from generational poverty.

6. White people, re-budget your monthly so you can donate to black funds for land purchasing.

7. White people, especially white women (because this is yaw specialty — Nosey Jenny and Meddling Kathy), get a racist fired. Yaw know what the fuck they be saying. You are complicit when you ignore them. Get your boss fired cause they racist too.

8. Backing up No. 7, this should be easy but all those sheetless Klan, Nazi’s and Other lil’ dick-white men will all be returning to work. Get they ass fired. Call the police even: they look suspicious.

9. OK, backing up No. 8, if any white person at your work, or as you enter in spaces and you overhear a white person praising the actions from yesterday, first, get a pic. Get their name and more info. Hell, find out where they work — Get Them Fired. But certainly address them, and, if you need to, you got hands: use them.

10. Commit to two things: Fighting white supremacy where and how you can (this doesn’t mean taking up knitting, unless you’re making scarves for black and brown kids in need), and funding black and brown people and their work.

The words of Michaela Brown, a spokeswoman for Baltimore Bloc, one of the group's partner organizations: "We seek radical transformation, not reactionary reform," said to TIME magazine.

BLM wants:
1. Reparations for All "Past and Continuing Harms" to the Black Community
(basically: free school, technical and vocational training, debt forgiveness, and a "guaranteed minimum livable income" check for all black people)

Warning: Spoiler!

We demand reparations for past and continuing harms. The government, responsible corporations and other institutions that have profited off of the harm they have inflicted on Black people — from colonialism to slavery through food and housing redlining, mass incarceration, and surveillance — must repair the harm done. This includes:

Reparations for the systemic denial of access to high quality educational opportunities in the form of full and free access for all Black people (including undocumented and currently and formerly incarcerated people) to lifetime education including: free access and open admissions to public community colleges and universities, technical education (technology, trade and agricultural), educational support programs, retroactive forgiveness of student loans, and support for lifetime learning programs.
Reparations for the continued divestment from, discrimination toward and exploitation of our communities in the form of a guaranteed minimum livable income for all Black people, with clearly articulated corporate regulations.
Reparations for the wealth extracted from our communities through environmental racism, slavery, food apartheid, housing discrimination and racialized capitalism in the form of corporate and government reparations focused on healing ongoing physical and mental trauma, and ensuring our access and control of food sources, housing and land.
Reparations for the cultural and educational exploitation, erasure, and extraction of our communities in the form of mandated public school curriculums that critically examine the political, economic, and social impacts of colonialism and slavery, and funding to support, build, preserve, and restore cultural assets and sacred sites to ensure the recognition and honoring of our collective struggles and triumphs.
Legislation at the federal and state level that requires the United States to acknowledge the lasting impacts of slavery, establish and execute a plan to address those impacts. This includes the immediate passage of H.R.40, the “Commission to Study Reparation Proposals for African-Americans Act” or subsequent versions which call for reparations remedies.

2. The End of the "War Against Black People"
(no more death penalty, no more having to post bail when arrested, no financial charges to be incurred when arrested, and the best part: " an end to all jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons as we know them."
There are some other things in there that i agree with although i dont know how to make them happen, such as addressing the privatization of prisons and the militarization of the police. But what i can tell you for sure based on the overall message is that BLM is NOT going to produce a practical solution to those issues.

Warning: Spoiler!

An immediate end to the criminalization and dehumanization of Black youth across all areas of society including, but not limited to; our nation’s justice and education systems, social service agencies, and media and pop culture. This includes an end to zero-tolerance school policies and arrests of students, the removal of police from schools, and the reallocation of funds from police and punitive school discipline practices to restorative services.
An end to capital punishment.
An end to money bail, mandatory fines, fees, court surcharges and “defendant funded” court proceedings.
An end to the use of past criminal history to determine eligibility for housing, education, licenses, voting, loans, employment, and other services and needs.
An end to the war on Black immigrants including the repeal of the 1996 crime and immigration bills, an end to all deportations, immigrant detention, and Immigration and Custom Enforcement (ICE) raids, and mandated legal representation in immigration court.
An end to the war on Black trans, queer and gender nonconforming people including their addition to anti-discrimination civil rights protections to ensure they have full access to employment, health, housing and education.
An end to the mass surveillance of Black communities, and the end to the use of technologies that criminalize and target our communities (including IMSI catchers, drones, body cameras, and predictive policing software).
The demilitarization of law enforcement, including law enforcement in schools and on college campuses.
An immediate end to the privatization of police, prisons, jails, probation, parole, food, phone and all other criminal justice related services.
Until we achieve a world where cages are no longer used against our people we demand an immediate change in conditions and an end to all jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons as we know them. This includes the end of solitary confinement, the end of shackling of pregnant people, access to quality healthcare, and effective measures to address the needs of our youth, queer, gender nonconforming and trans families.

3. Divestment from the institutions that criminalize, cage and harm black people; and investment in the education, health and safety of black people.
(cut police forces, release and expunge the records of everyone ever convicted of any drug trafficking charges or prostitution charges, and give them reparations for having been arrested and convicted, universal health care (including the guaranteed right to abortions), free college, "special protections" for queer and trans people, oh yeah and while youre at it, stop using fossil fuels and cut the military budget)

Warning: Spoiler!

A reallocation of funds at the federal, state and local level from policing and incarceration (JAG, COPS, VOCA) to long-term safety strategies such as education, local restorative justice services, and employment programs.
The retroactive decriminalization, immediate release and record expungement of all drug related offenses and prostitution, and reparations for the devastating impact of the “war on drugs” and criminalization of prostitution, including a reinvestment of the resulting savings and revenue into restorative services, mental health services, job programs and other programs supporting those impacted by the sex and drug trade.
Real, meaningful, and equitable universal health care that guarantees: proximity to nearby comprehensive health centers, culturally competent services for all people, specific services for queer, gender nonconforming, and trans people, full bodily autonomy, full reproductive services, mental health services, paid parental leave, and comprehensive quality child and elder care.
A constitutional right at the state and federal level to a fully-funded education which includes a clear articulation of the right to: a free education for all, special protections for queer and trans students, wrap around services, social workers, free health services (including reproductive body autonomy), a curriculum that acknowledges and addresses students’ material and cultural needs, physical activity and recreation, high quality food, free daycare, and freedom from unwarranted search, seizure or arrest.
A divestment from industrial multinational use of fossil fuels and investment in community- based sustainable energy solutions.
A cut in military expenditures and a reallocation of those funds to invest in domestic infrastructure and community well-being.

4. The Restructuring of the Economy to Produce "Economic Justice" for Blacks
Restructure the tax codes to "redistribute" American wealth to blacks. Basically give a bunch of money to all black people. End of our existing trade agreements and end of the Trans-Pacific partnership.

Warning: Spoiler!

A progressive restructuring of tax codes at the local, state, and federal levels to ensure a radical and sustainable redistribution of wealth.
Federal and state job programs that specifically target the most economically marginalized Black people, and compensation for those involved in the care economy. Job programs must provide a living wage and encourage support for local workers centers, unions, and Black-owned businesses which are accountable to the community.
A right to restored land, clean air, clean water and housing and an end to the exploitative privatization of natural resources — including land and water. We seek democratic control over how resources are preserved, used and distributed and do so while honoring and respecting the rights of our Indigenous family.
The right for workers to organize in public and private sectors especially in “On Demand Economy” jobs.
Restore the Glass-Steagall Act to break up the large banks, and call for the National Credit Union Administration and the US Department of the Treasury to change policies and practices around regulation, reporting and consolidation to allow for the continuation and creation of black banks, small and community development credit unions, insurance companies and other financial institutions.
An end to the Trans-Pacific Partnership and a renegotiation of all trade agreements to prioritize the interests of workers and communities.
Through tax incentives, loans and other government directed resources, support the development of cooperative or social economy networks to help facilitate trade across and in Black communities globally. All aid in the form of grants, loans or contracts to help facilitate this must go to Black led or Black supported networks and organizations as defined by the communities.
Financial support of Black alternative institutions including policy that subsidizes and offers low-interest, interest-free or federally guaranteed low-interest loans to promote the development of cooperatives (food, residential, etc.), land trusts and culturally responsive health infrastructures that serve the collective needs of our communities.
Protections for workers in industries that are not appropriately regulated including domestic workers, farm workers, and tipped workers, and for workers — many of whom are Black women and incarcerated people— who have been exploited and remain unprotected. This includes the immediate passage at the Federal and state level of the Domestic Workers Bill of Rights and extension of worker protections to incarcerated people.

5. Complete Community Control
(the people being arrested get to fire the people arresting them)

Warning: Spoiler!

We demand a world where those most impacted in our communities control the laws, institutions, and policies that are meant to serve us – from our schools to our local budgets, economies, police departments, and our land – while recognizing that the rights and histories of our Indigenous family must also be respected. This includes:

Direct democratic community control of local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies, ensuring that communities most harmed by destructive policing have the power to hire and fire officers, determine disciplinary action, control budgets and policies, and subpoena relevant agency information.
An end to the privatization of education and real community control by parents, students and community members of schools including democratic school boards and community control of curriculum, hiring, firing and discipline policies.
Participatory budgeting at the local, state and federal level.

6. Independent black political power and black self-determination in all areas of society.
(I have no idea how far they really want to take this but the terminology (and references to "political prisoners" and COINTELPRO) is suggestive of some kind of separatist end game aka Nation of Islam and Black Panther type stuff. "Black Separatism = blacks get their own country, either a designated part of USA or some other land somehwere else. In this aim the black racists and the white racists actually are on the same side, both want white and black separatism. Thats a possibility based on the language used in this point but they dont actually say that so...)

Warning: Spoiler!

We demand independent Black political power and Black self-determination in all areas of society. We envision a remaking of the current U.S. political system in order to create a real democracy where Black people and all marginalized people can effectively exercise full political power. This includes:

An end to the criminalization of Black political activity including the immediate release of all political prisoners and an end to the repression of political parties.
Public financing of elections and the end of money controlling politics through ending super PACs and unchecked corporate donations.
Election protection, electoral expansion and the right to vote for all people including: full access, guarantees, and protections of the right to vote for all people through universal voter registration, automatic voter registration, pre-registration for 16-year-olds, same day voter registration, voting day holidays, Online Voter Registration (OVR), enfranchisement of formerly and presently incarcerated people, local and state resident voting for undocumented people, and a ban on any disenfranchisement laws.
Full access to technology including net neutrality and universal access to the internet without discrimination and full representation for all.
Protection and increased funding for Black institutions including Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCU’s), Black media and cultural, political and social formations.
An End to the Criminalization of Black Political Activity Including the Immediate Release of All Political Prisoners and an End to the Repression of Political Parties
What is the problem?

While the criminal justice system has managed to create a pipeline from schools to prisons for Black and Brown communities, it has also been used as a tool of the state to delegitimize and neutralize people’s movements throughout history.
The criminalization of freedom movements and activists has resulted in the incarceration of hundreds of people, many of whom are recognized as legitimate freedom fighters. Black communities have been disproportionately targeted by the state and have become political prisoners incarcerated in local, state and federal prisons. The FBI’s Counter Intelligence Program (COINTELPRO) outlined the purpose, objectives, methods and tools used to criminalize freedom movements.
Today, direct victims of COINTELPRO (and similar law enforcement initiatives) remain exiled and incarcerated, while indirectly Black communities remain under surveillance by all levels of law enforcement with the intention of preventing the growth of another nationwide movement.
The tradition of surveillance and harassment of activists and freedom movements, has fostered fear, mistrust and suspicion in movement spaces that would otherwise function effectively.
What does this solution do?

We are calling for the release of all political prisoners held in the U.S. and the removal of legitimate freedom fighters from the International Terrorists list. Additionally, we call on Congress to hold hearings on the impact of COINTELPRO as the Church Committee hearings in 1975 did not offer remedies to individuals and communities negatively impacted by this government initiative.

Sources

Warning: Spoiler!

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/black-lives-matter-releases-policy-agenda-n620966

http://www.dailywire.com/news/8002/how-radical-left-black-lives-matter-heres-full-james-barrett#

http://time.com/4433679/black-lives-matter-platform-demands/

https://policy.m4bl.org/platform/

JLSpinner wrote: Yes there are people involved with BLM that are in fact racist. Yes non Caucasian people can be racist. Yes just because you are Caucasian doesn't mean you are racist. There is no evidence to support these absolute conditions. These views can and do hurt the cause.

There doesnt need to be evidence: its obvious. The mere fact that the White House is called the "WHITE House" proves it all.
THAT WAS SACRASM.. lol..
What i am saying is that the modern left has accepted irrational and racist ideology. You read ZealotX's reply -- racism USED TO MEAN "judging people by their race"... NOW it means "being white". Its not rational and its not just, and thats my point.

JLSpinner wrote: But that doesn't diminish the cause of you keep people accountable for their actions and don't project that on to others.

Im not sure what this sentence means but i agree that individuals should be judged as individuals and held accountable only for their own actions and ideas.

JLSpinner wrote: The same way many Caucasians grow angry when blamed for slavery or racism. The same way many peaceful Muslims get blamed for terrorism. Blaming everyone for the actions of a portion is not logical.

A movement is defined by its leadership... every nazi that fought in the war wasnt an evil person, but Hitler was an evil, crazy sonofabitch, and all the "good people" who fought for him gave him the ability to enact his evil onto the world and onto the Jews. If you had sorted through all of Hitlers talking points and stated aims, and especially if you had talked to all the everyday people who supported him, you would have found much that seemed reasonable and logical and even much you could agree with. But where was it heading all along?
Im not equating BLM with Hitler, im using the nazis as an example because they are a perfect example of the principle im referencing.

JLSpinner wrote: Look up the peaceful aspects of BLM that don't make the propaganda headlines. Check out the petitions and sit ins. The authorized protests and social media outreach groups. Check out the volunteers trying to fix the cities or raise money for the schools that are dying.

Ive addressed that i think

JLSpinner wrote: The media has become a business. The headlines are designed to sell, not inform. Unfortunately it's now our responsibility to dig deeper and search for the facts.

Including the ones which tell you how wonderful and benign and well meaning BLM is. Those are ALSO headlines, designed to sell. If you believe BLM has the right approach then feel free to be supportive of them in any way that you can. I agree with the basic aim of reducing racism (really reducing actual racism, not just disempowering white people). I agree with reforming the prison industry, ending the drug war, changing the financing rules of politics, and all kinds of other lofty changes BLM says they want. But as ive said, they are nested within a larger movement that i consider reprehensible.

Ultimately, my biggest complaint about them probably is simply that there doesnt seem to be a more rational and less divisive alternative. Many BLM mean well, but the movement in embedded within a nefarious ideology which has infected the left in the recent decade. It is the communist idea of class conflict being superimposed onto American society. The original idea was that civilization is a battle for power between the poor proletariat (worker) and the evil, exploitative bourgeois (the rich). That theory collapsed in the second world war, but the marxists, instead of admitting they were wrong, modified their theory and have been teaching it in western universities under the auspices of "social justice".. now we have an entire generation of people convinced that the entire of western civilization is one long, concerted effort by white men to oppress and exploit women, and all people of all other races.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA

I don't particularly disagree with anything you said. I don't agree with every stance they hold. I do agree though that we need change.

Lykeios wrote: I literally give up.

I will never try to stand up for the rights of marginalized peoples again. Just because my skin isn't "dark" I'm racist?

You know what I have to say to that?

Warning: Spoiler!

**** that bull****.

Thank you all for convincing me that whatever I can do will never be enough and that I shouldn't even TRY to talk about "racial" issues because I happen to be "white." Which is bull**** in and of itself for a couple of reasons which I'm not even going to bother to point out.

Count me out of further discussions on this topic or any other related to "race." (A cultural belief in something that doesn't even EXIST in reality. There is ONE race: the human race.)

I believe that he was being ironic by using viewpoints of others involved in the movement.