The Problem with Black Lives Matter

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6 years 7 months ago #291623 by ZealotX

Sven One wrote: @ ZealotX,

These are all valid points Zealot and much to consider. I do think it does start with the Individual for certain. If the Individual can change it could spark others to change. I would guess rioting is our right after all they're still having anti-trump marches. To blame the entire race I guess is a little harsh. It's just a such a hard thing for me to wrap my mind around because I don't see people as "black" or "Asian" or "White" I look at them as people just like me. I am a Jedi but, I am also a person. Thank you Zealot, you cause me to dig deeper and learn from perspectives that I don't normally think of an "outside the box" type thinking if you will.


Seriously. This is why you, sir, are awesome. You are awesome. It's that simple. All I wanted you to do was consider my argument and you did so with a positive attitude. Do you know how rare that is? We humans have a tendency to be get defensive. You're a champion. If everyone else approached this subject like you have racism would probably go away. Why? Because the solution is actually self-reflection. Black people can't really do much to stop racism besides creating attention and trying to reason with people on an moral/intellectual level. The moral level often fails because morality is relative. Therefore one can hypocritically treat "their own" better than they treat others. I prefer the idea of moral absolutes. The problem is who sets those standards and what is it based on? The truth is that we have to continue to grow and evolve; even our sense of morality in order to keep pace with everything we learn and discover. I thank you wholeheartedly and appreciate your openness and your receptiveness. You are a credit to humanity.
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6 years 7 months ago - 6 years 7 months ago #291668 by ZealotX
@Adder

As a "person of color" let me address this. And rest assured, even though I cannot speak for an entire race of people you'll find that this perspective is common.

I also think its mostly counterproductive to see color in a person, unless the person makes it clear its intrinsic and important to their identity.


As a black man, I want you to see my color. Not seeing my color is like pretending I don't have one or that there is something wrong with the color I have. The only reason my color wouldn't be important to me is if I had somehow assimilated to the point where I'm under the delusion that I am treated equally in this society. My color will matter less and less when it ceases to be an issue on which black people are JUDGED. See my color. Don't JUDGE my color.

Not seeing my color is like avoiding eye contact and pretending I don't have eyes. I certainly don't pretend white people aren't white. Believe me, no black person I know is ever really faced with this conundrum. The issue is not what color our skin is, our eyes are, how round or pointy our noses are. The issue is whether or not we attach negativity to these physical features or imagine that a bald head means you have a low IQ. That's ridiculous right? But how is it that I actually argued against a group of white people who honestly thought black people are lower in IQ hence dumber as a race? I don't know what my own IQ is; don't care. However, from my experience intelligence is mostly nurture. I'm a programmer and a graphic artist. The more I think like a computer the better I get at it. For many people their job/field of study is going to dictate their intellect, not their skin color.

We look different just like snowflakes and flowers. This is to be seen and appreciated and loved. I would never teach a child to be color blind. For what? They're missing something beautiful. You're taking away something beautiful.

I'm more of a chocolate brown. I'm more attracted to lightskin women, whether black or hispanic. And obviously, the way people tan, I'm not the only one who likes color. In fact it is fair to say that I'm attracted, like many people, to the exotic. There's so much beauty around the world, in different cultures, different types of hair, different color eyes, fuller lips, fuller hips, etc. Beauty is not 1 shape or 1 color. It's in ALL the shapes and ALL the colors. And when we put all the colors together we make more shapes and more colors and it is a very very beautiful thing. And I am very sad for anyone, who, especially for the sake of political correctness, doesn't want to see all of that beauty.

... or those who can't see it without automatically attaching ugliness and darkness and evil to it.

Catherine Zeta Jones = beautiful
Selma Hayek = beautiful
Angelina Jolie = beautiful
Tyra Banks = beautiful
Beyonce = beautiful

Idris Elba, Taye Diggs, Jesse Williams,
Nicholas Gonzalez,Ryan McPartlin, Ryan Rodney Reynolds,
Josh Holloway = all handsome

Their color is part of what makes them look good. Women even use makeup to ADD more color for the simple fact that it makes them look better. And sometimes you see them without their makeup and it's like WHOA.... but you get the point. Color is a positive thing whether it's brown or peach or ivory (jury's still out on whatever orange Trump is). Look at it. See it. Don't shy away from it or think it helps the person to ignore it. It shouldn't be ignored. That's the other way that racism hides itself. If you have a bias, start from there. Realize that all black people aren't pretty to look at. But the same is true of every race. And all black people aren't perfect citizens. But the same is true of every race. And at the end of the day it is our imperfections (not our color) that make us all the same.
Last edit: 6 years 7 months ago by ZealotX.
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6 years 7 months ago #291717 by Adder

ZealotX wrote: My color will matter less and less when it ceases to be an issue on which black people are JUDGED. See my color. Don't JUDGE my color.


Who is? I wasn't. I see skin color as the color of skin but that is not what is being talked about I thought... I thought we were talking about differences of culture.

What I meant is that I don't assert the associated culture as an important part of the persons personality from the skin color. I judge people on action and speech, not attributes that they had no choice over, like sex or skin color. The working definition of not judging by skin color!!!!

So back to the topic, unless someone exhibits a culture in their personality I'm not going to assume they identify and want to be identified as anything in particular other then an equal, or as a functionary in some capacity.

As IMO we should be all equal, and treated as individuals, on our individuality. If that means someone wants to identify as part of some nature of group, then that is fine, it will increase the chance other people will be able to relate to them as the larger the group the more widespread knowledge about them will be. That is why I have the opinion I do, and how over using labels of color is making the problem worse... skin color should't matter so much because as you say people shouldn't be judged on it, and therefore I say if you cannot judge someone on it, then how can you identify them by it. People are individuals, skin colors are attributes, and appropriate use needs to examine the conditions of that usage otherwise it probably is some type of category error, which is in essence discrimination. I don't think we are disagreeing too much, but using different language perhaps :D

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6 years 7 months ago #291762 by FTPC
https://shadowandact.com/hbo-confederate-drama-game-of-thrones-producers

HBO plans to make a series about the Civil war and about slavery and people are PISSED,
Look I wish i still had HBO to this Upcoming show, I just like history I

am NOT a racist, and Some People are saying that they will Cancel Home Box office because of this show About Slavery, Look This Slavery BS and Black History every February is what causes Groups Like black lives matter,

when will people think about this, It is the choices you make in life that make you r life Heaven or hell, not your damn skin
color!

some people are proud of the Stars & Bars because Our grandmothers and grandfathers came from the
byt BLM see every thing white as racist

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6 years 7 months ago - 6 years 7 months ago #291835 by ZealotX

Adder wrote:

ZealotX wrote: My color will matter less and less when it ceases to be an issue on which black people are JUDGED. See my color. Don't JUDGE my color.


Who is? I wasn't. I see skin color as the color of skin but that is not what is being talked about I thought... I thought we were talking about differences of culture.

What I meant is that I don't assert the associated culture as an important part of the persons personality from the skin color. I judge people on action and speech, not attributes that they had no choice over, like sex or skin color. The working definition of not judging by skin color!!!!

So back to the topic, unless someone exhibits a culture in their personality I'm not going to assume they identify and want to be identified as anything in particular other then an equal, or as a functionary in some capacity.

As IMO we should be all equal, and treated as individuals, on our individuality. If that means someone wants to identify as part of some nature of group, then that is fine, it will increase the chance other people will be able to relate to them as the larger the group the more widespread knowledge about them will be. That is why I have the opinion I do, and how over using labels of color is making the problem worse... skin color should't matter so much because as you say people shouldn't be judged on it, and therefore I say if you cannot judge someone on it, then how can you identify them by it. People are individuals, skin colors are attributes, and appropriate use needs to examine the conditions of that usage otherwise it probably is some type of category error, which is in essence discrimination. I don't think we are disagreeing too much, but using different language perhaps :D


I agree, that's not what you meant. The context you provided was

I also think it's mostly counterproductive to see color in a person, unless the person makes it clear its intrinsic and important to their identity. Assuming skin color was the predominant indicator of that person's personality would seem racist, so it makes sense not to assume it... and so I'm firmly stuck firm on the togetherness, unity, and the 'human race is the only race' position.


I think you have every good intention in the world. And I think we share the view that race is a manufactured label that shouldn't exist. The human race 'should be' the only race. Do I agree with that 100% Ab-so-lutely. And I think this is the difficulty for black people. If I could carbon copy you a million times I would do that and it would be a significant blow to racism. Black people are so tired of racism it's ridiculous. The conflict is that everyone isn't like you and we cannot tell who is who and which is which until the inner nature and biases come out. And in the systems that affect us we often see the wrong attitudes and biases come out. If you're a black person who is hyper-exposed to what may be a minority group who are overtly racist it is natural to assume there is a larger group that is covertly racist and who you only have indirect contact with. After all, why do so many whites move out of cities? Why do so many whites always jump on the side of the police? We see certain patterns that don't make sense.

Then on top of that, when someone says "I don't see color"... this is something we hear a lot as a defense that is typically a lie and its meaning is obfuscated by the insensitivity of the literal statement. For me, I can see color without applying the full history of all white people to you simply because you share the same skin color. Just because you're white doesn't mean you personally raped slaves, treated humans like cattle, stole land from natives, etc. etc. Someone else did that. And on top of that slave ownership was a minority of whites. But even though it was a minority there was still a war, jim crow, civil rights movement, a lot of other efforts necessary just to get to where we are today. So it feels like we're ice skating up hill because we're actually opposed by the white majority. That's how it feels/seems.

Even though many whites today have never owned a slave in their life they still have this attitude that black people are inferior. Again, I've witnessed this myself. A white kid in a pool told my kid that white people were better with his dad right there and his dad offered no correction.

So yeah... until we have equality and until white people can get on the same page we will remain "black people". And because of all the racists and all those who believe themselves to be superior, even though this thought is an exercise in ignorance, my color will continue to mean something to them and it will continue to be a constant reminder to me about where we stand in this society, and that we cannot see all white people as just people because many have already chosen to side against us.

When people "don't see color" it's like they don't see us at all; they don't see our struggle, our pain, our perseverance, or how far we have come. It is the history of white America, BOTH the good, the bad, and the ugly, that has created what America is today. It has created classes in which the rich are getting richer and treating everyone else like garbage. But it also creates multiculturalism and paths to prosperity. A lot of people are scared of black and brown people taking "their jobs" because in their minds America belongs to white people. And because the people who tend to feel this way tend to be at the bottom of white society (including teachers and cops), because black people, income wise, also tend to be at the bottom with them, who do you think we are mostly exposed to? Who do you think we are mostly dealing with? And if we're mostly dealing with the ignorant racists and no one steps in to help us and the smarter and wiser people (such as you all on this site) see no evil, hear no evil, then of course this problem is not going away and will inevitably spiral out of control.

And then what is amazing is that we are somehow (without the authority of the State) supposed to keep our own people in line (because black people are magic and can control each other's behavior just by generating the right brain wave pattern) when the majority of whites who have all the power, including the authority of the state, cannot and do not control the behavior of the minority who use whatever power and authority they have to oppress us. This is what is happening when Black Lives Matter gets blamed for the behavior of black folk to who come to a rally. But the only reason the rally exists is because white police officers are out of control and the desire to control them is simply not there. Hence the need for BLM.

But when movements are contrary to the "powers that be" and the "the man" wants to hit back, they don't do it directly. They use what they OWN. Everything they own becomes a tool and a chess piece and this is what we, the masses, have to understand and pay attention to so that we don't fall for it. PROPAGANDA.

When the Occupy Wall Street movement gained steam Breitbart attacked it, talking about rapes and sexual assaults going on in these camps. I'm not going to sit here and compare sexual assault to riots. The point is that organizations cannot prevent these things because at the end of the day, protestors are still human. Humans are allowed to be angry at something and want to fight for a cause. No one has (yet) created a morality meter that you can shove up someone's anus and detect how good or evil they are. But the point is not simply that organizations cannot prevent bad behavior. The point is that the "powers that be" will use these things to attack the organization (which is the head) in order to attack THE MOVEMENT. The Occupy organization made a lot of mistakes... because they were human. But we cannot keep using the excuse, "oh they should have been better organized". Every time we say that, someone wins (the powers that be) and we lose. All they have to do is turn us against ourselves.

When people judge Black Lives Matter... why do they judge it? Because it's not explicitly THEIR organization. They don't feel tied to it. They don't feel included. That's why it was attacked for simply having "Black" in the name. Very smart opponents were like "AHA! We can use that against them!" See... there was already an "us" vs "them" and they were determined to draw racial lines so that the white masses would have something to criticize. Imagine if they did the same thing to the Civil Rights Movement.

Now you can look it up as "the civil rights movement", "the American Civil Rights movement", "the African-American civil rights movement", or the "black civil rights movement".

On what planet would these differences in name change what they were protesting?

Jesus (whether he existed or not) has a very nice quote that fits in here.

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

This means that it doesn't have to be happening to you. If you're not racist, sexist, whatever other-ist, then it IS happening to you, because like you said... we are one race.

So Adder, you said were basically in agreement but using different words. I agree with you. Further, I'm trying to point out that different words can change the conversation. People can take it a different way but it doesn't change what you mean. And if what you mean is good, why purpose to attack it? BLM was publicly attacked over its name and further publicly attacked over an imaginary failure to prevent criminal activity at its events. Again... Occupy had the same issue. Were they at fault? Whose job is it to protect and serve? Whose job is it to keep the peace? Whose job is it to be a deterrent against crime? There are people who get paid to do that and they have to wear badges to do it legally. This blame game is nothing more than a political attack by those who very much do not like these movements because they do not want to empower whatever the "them" happens to be; whether it's black people or the 98%.

Instead of the 98% (a minority of capital) and every other minority, every other movement, etc. ever winning against these SAME people who opposed all of us... we instead are manipulated into fighting each other, attacking each other's movements and organizations, and blaming each other for failure after failure to change anything. When someone starts ranting about the "problems of black lives matter" but they offer no solutions... that's how you know the political attacks against "US" (all of us who are decidedly not with "them") are working. I believe at some point, the momentum in this conversation will slowly start to change based on the thoughts and opinions of a number of you posting. I believe the momentum will shift from "yeah... the problem with black lives matter is _______" to "the problem with the opposition to black lives matter is ________", because why should any of us be opposed to BLM? Have you spent any time on their website? Do you know, from their own mouths, what their stated agenda is? Or are we allowing pundits and talking heads to feed us this negative propaganda so that we will repeat these same talking points so that BLM will fail and die in relative obscurity? No movement is perfect and if all it takes to kill it is to point out its imperfections? Then we will be the death of every positive effort to change the world. And we, being Jedi, at the very least... should have a mental defense against such manipulation so that we can be a force always for good.
Last edit: 6 years 7 months ago by ZealotX.
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6 years 7 months ago #291862 by ZealotX

HBO plans to make a series about the Civil war and about slavery and people are PISSED,Look I wish i still had HBO to this Upcoming show, I just like history I
am NOT a racist, and Some People are saying that they will Cancel Home Box office because of this show About Slavery, Look This Slavery BS and Black History every February is what causes Groups Like black lives matter,


Contrary to your belief shows about slavery and black history month do not cause groups like BLM. What causes groups like BLM is experiencing contemporary inequality and racially based oppression. Disregarding this or saying it is 'really' something else is the whole reason why BLM is necessary to point out that which you currently do not see. Secondly, this implies there is something wrong with BLM or that black people are stupid and imagining that we are being treated a certain way or that we're all lying about it, which is an argument I have yet to see argued successfully. Third, your comments underscore a common view that many whites seem to have that the way to end these problems is to pretend we don't have these problems. This has been US policy for many years. And all through those years black people have still suffered. Even if you don't talk about it, racists whites do! They talk. They influence white children. White kids adopt the same racial biases the last generation had. And without any understanding of black history, they have no context on which to draw from to see that black people are not inferior.

The common misunderstanding of people about Black History Month is that black history begins with slavery. It does not. White people take pride in where they came from. Studies have even shown that this understanding of one's origins is important to proper development. I would be all for giving up black history month if black history was taught in schools. Because it isn't, this allows black kids to think their history doesn't matter or is of lesser importance and that America is all about the prosperity of the white race. Even if America is multicultural, our history books most certainly are not. And if the only black icons you know of are Martin Luther King, Malcom X, and Harriet Tubman, or that one of these refused to stand on a bus you really don't know anything about black people which allows racism to continue. If I mentioned Marcus Garvey or Mansa Musa and you don't who I'm talking about when you state that you like history, then something's wrong. And it isn't something is wrong with you. You're fine. There's something wrong with the system. Even the maps of the world were inaccurately drawn to diminish the size of Africa. Why? Is it because racism doesn't exist? How often do you see the great modern cities in Africa? How often do they show them on TV? Almost never? Or never?

when will people think about this, It is the choices you make in life that make you r life Heaven or hell, not your damn skin
color!


This statement is better known as "white privilege". If I offend you I apologize. Very few black people will say this because it is demonstrably untrue. Your experience may be different because people are treating you differently because you are white. You do not perceive a difference because you've ONLY been treated the same way and you've ONLY been white. I have only been black. If all my friends were white I would have no one to tell me stories about how they were mistreated or how someone at work called them a nigger. You're simply not going to be exposed to that world if you stay where that world can't touch you. Many people have been enslaved, raped, and murdered because of their skin color. But since slavery is over we'd like to think that color no longer matters. That is simply not the case. Look at any prison in America and see how your color can protect you or get you killed. And then look at how many innocent people are sent there because of corrupt cops. I invite you to read about "Racial Profiling", Race and Economic Justice, Race and Inequality in Education, Affirmative Action, Race and Criminal Justice, and American Indian Rights.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/racial-justice/race-and-criminal-justice
https://www.aclu.org/issues/racial-justice/race-and-economic-justice
https://www.aclu.org/issues/racial-justice/race-and-inequality-education



I look forward to the HBO show. Have you seen Roots? Have you seen Underground? Why is it that whites appear to fear and hate these shows depicting slavery and oppression more than blacks? When Netflix got the satirical series "Dear White People" people started losing their minds over it. Let me tell you this. Black people are not mentally fragile. Black people know exactly what happened during slavery and how bad it was. We're more concerned about actual racists who have the power to negatively impact our daily lives. Honestly, there are many black actors who can't even get jobs without these kinds of shows! And a lot of these shows and movies are created, at least in part, by black people where now we finally have the means to voice and tell our own story. History is usually, for us, "his story". In reality, children got whipped too. A lot of slave masters even fell in love with one of their slaves. It apparently happened even in my family. But the idea that we should just not talk about it and maybe it'll go away? That doesn't work. What we need to do is talk about it and have meaningful conversations so that the ideologies and attitudes that allowed slavery and racism to occur, that this environment will one day be replaced by new ideologies and new attitudes that make these things impossible.

some people are proud of the Stars & Bars because Our grandmothers and grandfathers came from the
byt BLM see every thing white as racist


Nope. BLM sees everything racist as racist. That's why they are specifically targeting police culture; NOT white culture. The problem is that it's not hard to see racism if you are looking for it or if it is looking for you. And moreover, I'm going to assume that you haven't met very many members of Black Lives Matter. I would be impressed if you knew 3 or even 1. So it is interesting that your assumption (because what else could it be? a poll?) is that an entire organization has taken a position that "everything white is racist". Where did you get that idea? And why are you applying that idea to an entire organization? Do you apply that idea to me as well? It is quite the irony that you have proposed. You think that a bunch of black people (perhaps the entire race, I don't know) believes something to be true that isn't. So you think that they are applying a false idea to all whites while you seem to be applying a false idea to all blacks or all black BLM members.


And just reading the responses to BLM I am sickened by the amount of white people on the internet that really believe it's okay to kill young black men as long as you THINK they are "thugs". The way our criminal justice system is supposed to work is that a person is innocent until proven guilty because we don't want to be a society that goes around punishing and killing innocent people. THAT is criminal. THAT deserves to be tried and executed. But tried. In many cases we're not even putting corrupt killer cops on trial. It's not their job to kill people no matter what they think that person has done. And even if a suspect is guilty of something the prescription to every crime certainly isn't death. Selling loose cigarettes or selling marijuana certainly doesn't deserve death. But these cops are criminals because like the criminals they arrest, they too break and don't give a crap about the law.
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