Taking Part in the Process...As an experienced Jedi

Rickie wrote:

Br. John wrote: Someone could graduate from Harvard Law School with Honors. They could practice law for 20 years in New York then serve as a judge on the state supreme court there for 10 years. They decide to move to Texas and want to open a law practice. To get a licence to be a lawyer in Texas they still have to pass the Texas Bar Exam (which unfortunately does not cover how to make a perfect vodka martini).
.

but he doesn't have to go back to law school. Maybe he will have to learn some about Texas laws? He is tested to see if has the knowledge to practice law in Texas basis and to determine if his past experiences and education is adequate. They recognize his past experiences. If he fails he has to study up on his weakness but he doesn't start from scratch.

That is not true. All of us in a professional capacity have to continue our education. Even Lawyers/Judges. Yes he would have to test for the Texas Bar but he would still be required to continue his study.

As a College Professor I have to continue my education, I'm currently working towards a Masters and after that a PHD. As part of my Masters in Anthropology I have the opportunity with my father who is a minister to visit the Holy Land. What I can learn by actually visiting those places and bring back to the classroom is vital and required for me to share.

As for here, I support the Rank system in place. I support the education programs. Remember people this whole thing is free. The few of us behind the scenes that help with this are all volunteer. No one is making money here, yes there is always room for improvement, however being a an Educator myself and having gone through the IP and then Apprenticeship I feel was an incredible part of this temple and the dedication of the people in it. Yes its not for everyone and that's okay too.

When I got to meet my teacher face to face and talked we laughed and carried a conversation on for three hours straight with one bathroom break in between. Why? Because we have a shared experience here that we have done together and worked through. We were meeting as equals and that was never more apparent to me than that night. It didn't matter that he was a Knight and I was an Apprentice, we were two Jedi talking about being Jedi and laughing about trivial Jedi things together. I hope that is something we can do again in the future and that I can meet up with a few more folks to giggle about more Jedi things.

Do the program. Earn your place. Or not. That is fine too. If you don't want to climb the ladder that is fine and a lot of great folks contribute at the Member and Guest level. If you go up in rank you get more responsibility, hence the reason for going through our program, so we are all on a level playing field.

All of us in a professional capacity have to continue our education.

Yes we do. No argument there but that was not the point I was attempting to make.

Continued education is not the same starting law school from scratch. In fact I believe anyone can sit for the bar exam? No formal education required? The test determines if one has sufficient knowledge to be a lawler. Please if some one knows better about the bar exam speak up.

This is my point.

Yes he would have to test for the Texas Bar

This thread, and the thread about rank, makes me think that say, martial arts masters, must practice the basics. Why is it a problem to do so on a Jedi forum too?

Edan wrote: This thread, and the thread about rank, makes me think that say, martial arts masters, must practice the basics. Why is it a problem to do so on a Jedi forum too?

I don't think that what I'm about to put here will hold much ground, but I'm going to throw out another real world example of something, and see what people think about it.

So in the world of emergency medical services, there are usually 3 basic licenses at the state level. Emt-Basic, EMT-Intermediate, and EMT-Paramedic. Here in Illinois I'm a licensed EMT-I and I'm a licensed EMT-B in wisconsin. For a period of time those who lived close to two states, in order to work from one state to the next, lets say since I live close to the indiana border if I wanted to also go work at a job in indiana as an intermediate, I have to not only re-test, but I have to re go through practicals and prove that I can do all the interventions I'm trained for. This was the way it was for majority of the states up until a few years ago.

After awhile there was a problem of if you wanted licensed in multiple states having to do this over and over every couple years, while helpful if you were really working 2 or more jobs where you had to have licenses in multiple states you are already getting enough hands on experience, and have to do renewal practicals anyway every year that its deemed excessive to have to continue to do that.(It was also cost prohibitive, it required testing equipment you had to have those qualified to teach present to do the testing, it can consume 8-20 hours per person to go through it all depending on license level, and your doing it once a year per job you have annually anyway in addition to that testing, there just wasn't enough staff around to constantly do that when that staff could be teaching other new students and then the cost for the actual sessions were very expensive too(in some cases for paramedics it can be as high as $1,000 for national registry level sessions).

After awhile of realizing that, came the national standards. Not every state has adopted it yet but there is a curriculum and standard which is usually a higher/harder test that if you pass you can get a license with nothing but the licensing fee in I think 42 of the states that has adopted it right now. For example I also hold a national registry standard for EMT, I can walk into the Missouri office give them my nremt-b card and and a check and they hand me a license without having to go through all the testing because the national standard is a higher standard then most of the states and a level everyone kind of agrees with.

So to put that into a jedi practical statement, it would be the equivalent of the various jedi communities coming together and putting together a list of requirements that everyone agreed on of what makes a knight a knight, a combination of minimums essentially and if someone achieved those minimums could be considered a knight rank in any given community. Now is that likely to happen, no. For 2 big reasons, 1, the chances of everyone agreeing with their different philosophies is probably pretty darn low, and 2. The "title" and "label" of knight has different responsibilities and roles within each community, it would be hard to just let someone in and assume they are going to instantly pick up those responsibilities if they are focused on another community of their own.

So I don't see anything like that happening soon, but I did want to give a valid example for the other scenario of where someones status and experience does and has required to be carried over from state to state/community to community.

Tellahane wrote: After awhile of realizing that, came the national standards. Not every state has adopted it yet but there is a curriculum and standard which is usually a higher/harder test that if you pass you can get a license with nothing but the licensing fee in I think 42 of the states that has adopted it right now. For example I also hold a national registry standard for EMT, I can walk into the Missouri office give them my nremt-b card and and a check and they hand me a license without having to go through all the testing because the national standard is a higher standard then most of the states and a level everyone kind of agrees with.

So to put that into a jedi practical statement, it would be the equivalent of the various jedi communities coming together and putting together a list of requirements that everyone agreed on of what makes a knight a knight, a combination of minimums essentially and if someone achieved those minimums could be considered a knight rank in any given community. Now is that likely to happen, no. For 2 big reasons, 1, the chances of everyone agreeing with their different philosophies is probably pretty darn low, and 2. The "title" and "label" of knight has different responsibilities and roles within each community, it would be hard to just let someone in and assume they are going to instantly pick up those responsibilities if they are focused on another community of their own.

I do not want to sound hard.. but some stuff to back your theory up. :side: I remember I have asked for a poll a good wile back, Br. John himself made it happening. (Not expected that he would, still was fun to see :blush:)

Like a dream come true! 5 9.6%
I support! 11 21.2%
I am neutral! 20 38.5%
I do not support! 12 23.1%
I do not support at all! 4 7.7%
Total number of voters: 52

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/107956-jediism-connect-multiple-communitys-and-orders-please-read-every-post-bevore-posting

Tellahane wrote: ,,"label" of knight has different responsibilities and roles within each community, it would be hard to just let someone in and assume they are going to instantly pick up those responsibilities if they are focused on another community of their own.''

So you say that one community rank can not be compared with a other community rank? Can fully agree with that

Back to very experienced Jedi Steen, want to take part in the process according to his topic title. He asked where he should where in he should begin. I am not sure if I can add something because I already made my point in previous posts.. But if I may ask you, how do you like to see yourself in several years? What would you improve on a personal level?

Tellahane wrote:

Edan wrote: This thread, and the thread about rank, makes me think that say, martial arts masters, must practice the basics. Why is it a problem to do so on a Jedi forum too?

I don't think that what I'm about to put here will hold much ground, but I'm going to throw out another real world example of something, and see what people think about it.

So in the world of emergency medical services, there are usually 3 basic licenses at the state level. Emt-Basic, EMT-Intermediate, and EMT-Paramedic. Here in Illinois I'm a licensed EMT-I and I'm a licensed EMT-B in wisconsin. For a period of time those who lived close to two states, in order to work from one state to the next, lets say since I live close to the indiana border if I wanted to also go work at a job in indiana as an intermediate, I have to not only re-test, but I have to re go through practicals and prove that I can do all the interventions I'm trained for. This was the way it was for majority of the states up until a few years ago.

After awhile there was a problem of if you wanted licensed in multiple states having to do this over and over every couple years, while helpful if you were really working 2 or more jobs where you had to have licenses in multiple states you are already getting enough hands on experience, and have to do renewal practicals anyway every year that its deemed excessive to have to continue to do that.(It was also cost prohibitive, it required testing equipment you had to have those qualified to teach present to do the testing, it can consume 8-20 hours per person to go through it all depending on license level, and your doing it once a year per job you have annually anyway in addition to that testing, there just wasn't enough staff around to constantly do that when that staff could be teaching other new students and then the cost for the actual sessions were very expensive too(in some cases for paramedics it can be as high as $1,000 for national registry level sessions).

After awhile of realizing that, came the national standards. Not every state has adopted it yet but there is a curriculum and standard which is usually a higher/harder test that if you pass you can get a license with nothing but the licensing fee in I think 42 of the states that has adopted it right now. For example I also hold a national registry standard for EMT, I can walk into the Missouri office give them my nremt-b card and and a check and they hand me a license without having to go through all the testing because the national standard is a higher standard then most of the states and a level everyone kind of agrees with.

So to put that into a jedi practical statement, it would be the equivalent of the various jedi communities coming together and putting together a list of requirements that everyone agreed on of what makes a knight a knight, a combination of minimums essentially and if someone achieved those minimums could be considered a knight rank in any given community. Now is that likely to happen, no. For 2 big reasons, 1, the chances of everyone agreeing with their different philosophies is probably pretty darn low, and 2. The "title" and "label" of knight has different responsibilities and roles within each community, it would be hard to just let someone in and assume they are going to instantly pick up those responsibilities if they are focused on another community of their own.

So I don't see anything like that happening soon, but I did want to give a valid example for the other scenario of where someones status and experience does and has required to be carried over from state to state/community to community.

I'm wondering if I didn't word myself very well... I'm not saying that the 'basics' need to be agreed by everyone although I would imagine that for most groups the basics would be very similar... I was only suggesting that in other areas where practice is required, I would think that most would not be afraid of practising [whatever they consider to be] the basics...

I'll give you an example.. I play the piano reasonably well.. but even I still practise arpeggios and scales to remind myself.. go back to simpler pieces to provide a groundwork for more complicated ones. I see going back to basics as a good way to keep the ground on which you build everything else strong.

I agree with Edan. I keep coming back to this:

tzb wrote: Our definition of Jedi here doesn't include opportunities for learning being a "waste of time".

The idea that repeating study is (ever) a waste just proves the point that not all definitions of "Experienced Jedi" are equal. See also the many Knights and Masters here who repeat the IP regularly.

Returning to our foundations is not only useful, it is essential. It keeps us honest. It helps us relate to those working through it for the first time. It allows us to pour our paths back into our study - what I take from those texts now runs far deeper than what I found in them first time out.

It stops us declaring ourselves "great Jedi" because we feel we've "got there". I believe the best Jedi never "get there". They continue their journey.

If Streen completed the IP and was my Apprentice there'd be no re-inventing the wheel. The IP is a golden opportunity for Streen to contribute by his review and critique of it. The IP is not an indoctrination. He can argue and editorialize on the merits or explain why some parts are not good. He can say why something should be changed, eliminated or added. And anyone doing the IP is urged to do this and know that it's fine do disagree as long as you support your position.

If Streen were my Apprentice his assignments would mostly be exactly what he's wanting to do. Much of the work would things like posting a lecture on an agreed topic with questions and answers from Members and Guests. Creating an assignment for another Knight's Apprentice (with the OK of the teaching Knight). Teaching a group seminar on an agreed topic. See where I'm going?

Without breaking or bending the rules (we'll walk right through the middle of them) Streen's wish is GRANTED. I'm delighted to have the chance to work with him on this.

Br. John wrote: If Streen completed the IP and was my Apprentice there'd be no re-inventing the wheel. The IP is a golden opportunity for Streen to contribute by his review and critique of it. The IP is not an indoctrination. He can argue and editorialize on the merits or explain why some parts are not good. He can say why something should be changed, eliminated or added. And anyone doing the IP is urged to do this and know that it's fine do disagree as long as you support your position.

This is exactly what I was doing before life adjusted my priorities and took my TotJO time away. So I feel this sums it up best out of all these posts. I am sure if Streen and I laid down our Jedi Resumes we would have very comparable items length. There is something to be said for experience, sure. As pointed out by a few people, there is often assessment tests to avoid redundant education from happening. This is done as a way to avoid wasting resources (time and energy of instructors being one of those resources). And there are very easy ways to do this across Jedi sites (not that most sites want that). Much easier to do with Jedi of Streen's experience level as well to.

However as pointed out by Br. John - you can go through the program in any manner you wish. Heck, even I was having fun doing so. You can explore the familiar or new concepts as you see fit. And what do you lose in doing so? Time that could be better spent? That is an issue of priorities and that needs to be examined first. Because reviewing foundational material is always worthwhile. No matter one's experience level.

Point and fact - You cannot be a Mentor at ANY Jedi Organization without a clear and firm understanding of their training material. This doesn't take away from one's ability, experience, and knowledge as a Jedi Mentor in general. But if one is going to teach and guide at a specific Organization then they need to know the core materials being taught and encouraged. Likewise the Organization must know that any Mentor has that understanding. And what better way is there than to watch the person go through said foundational material? Seems a simple matter to me. Want to help and teach and guide here? Know our materials. Still to prove by going through them.

tzb wrote: Our definition of Jedi here doesn't include opportunities for learning being a "waste of time".

What you don't realize is that this isn't my first rodeo. I actually have started from the beginning, many times, just not publicly here at TOTJO. I do understand where you're coming from though. When I said it would be a "waste of time" I didn't mean to imply that I've already learned all I need to learn. Far from it. I know I have a LOT more to learn. But the lessons in the IP are things I've gone through, not just in my personal studies, but also in college. Therefore, asking someone to train me on these topics would be a waste of time for them.

Returning to our foundations is not only useful, it is essential. It keeps us honest. It helps us relate to those working through it for the first time. It allows us to pour our paths back into our study - what I take from those texts now runs far deeper than what I found in them first time out.

I couldn't agree more! :laugh: What I've done often is going back to books I read 10 to 15 years ago and reading lessons that make so much more sense now than they did the first time through. I've even gone back to the internet location where I started my path, which was an RP chat room, some 19 years ago. A man named Gedi, who created a site called Jedi Lore (one of the first Jedi sites to exist), used to teach that one's origin is incredibly important. I took that lesson to heart and never forgot it. I teach it to all my apprentices, to remember where they started, how they came to the Jed path, and how crucial it to go back to it once in a while to have perspective.

It stops us declaring ourselves "great Jedi" because we feel we've "got there". I believe the best Jedi never "get there". They continue their journey.

I am far from "great", and I have never "got there", though there are many "gets": points along the path when you know you've accomplished something spiritually. I am, however, an incredibly flawed person, but teaching others improves who I am. On the other hand though, there is never an end to the journey. Progress continues on infinitely. I've written on this topic at my site, JEDI Philosophy.

Being a mentor is my reason for living (no exaggeration). Which is why I started this thread. I feel the Force has called me to do more. I would not have made the OP if I didn't believe that. This is right for me, not out of ego, but of faith.

Dearest experienced Jedi streen,

IP answers are not good or bad. If you explain why you do not answer it is possible. All can if you explain, knights will seek what is missing. You Will change, all will be happy.

Aqua wrote: Dearest experienced Jedi streen,

IP answers are not good or bad. If you explain why you do not answer it is possible.[strike] All [/strike] IP can, if you explain, it can be done in several ways. Knights will seek what is missing. You will get room to [strike]Will[/strike] change it, and all will be happy.

At moment of writing I was on my phone, tried to keep it short for time issues. Ehm.. not a good idea of me to do, so made edit. :lol:

Thank you, Aqua In an agreement with Br. John, I am going through the IP now. I feel I should apologize for implying it might have been a "waste of time". It's actually proved to be rather interesting and educational (not to mention challenging), even if much of it I already had experience in.

And that word... "experienced"... was not a wise choice. I have experienced a lot as a Jedi, but I used it like a title, and that was a mistake. I made it sound like I think I am above other people just because of my experience, and nothing could be further from the truth.

Streen wrote: Thank you, Aqua In an agreement with Br. John, I am going through the IP now. I feel I should apologize for implying it might have been a "waste of time". It's actually proved to be rather interesting and educational (not to mention challenging), even if much of it I already had experience in.

And that word... "experienced"... was not a wise choice. I have experienced a lot as a Jedi, but I used it like a title, and that was a mistake. I made it sound like I think I am above other people just because of my experience, and nothing could be further from the truth.

Dearest experienced Jedi Streen,

Thank you for your time and patience with all people, I am thankful that you have considered all possibilities carefully. And that you make your choice about the word I loved to use for you. I answer as you answer, and like to say that I read your IP journal with much joy. Please continue with it as long as you like, I enjoy with you.

From this day to my last I shall acknowledge you as 'Streen', I hope you are not angry at me, because I did call you different before. So for that I would like to say that I am sorry for doing, sometimes things must be done in the way they are done. Hope that you will forgive me for doing and that you will face a great apprenticeship with Br. John if you choose to continue your path.

Bend, Absorb, Reflect,
May you shine with the force Jedi Streen,

~ Aqua

Opie Macleod wrote: As pointed out by a few people, there is often assessment tests to avoid redundant education from happening. This is done as a way to avoid wasting resources (time and energy of instructors being one of those resources). And there are very easy ways to do this across Jedi sites (not that most sites want that). Much easier to do with Jedi of Streen's experience level as well to.

I would like to playfully draw a circle around the Initiate's Program as this exact test everyone is looking for... the willingness to go through it as well as the time requirement, etc... also, the potential for realization that there might be new, golden lotuses of information that haven't been covered yet...

my circle is made of animal crackers and Twizzlers candy. Don't step on the camels, they break easily

Aqua wrote: From this day to my last I shall acknowledge you as 'Streen', I hope you are not angry at me, because I did call you different before. So for that I would like to say that I am sorry for doing, sometimes things must be done in the way they are done. Hope that you will forgive me for doing and that you will face a great apprenticeship with Br. John if you choose to continue your path.

You're forgiven It's perfectly alright. I deserved what you said, because it made me realize how highly I was thinking of myself. Your acknowledgement of it was humbling, so I thank you for that!

Streen wrote:
And that word... "experienced"... was not a wise choice. I have experienced a lot as a Jedi, but I used it like a title, and that was a mistake. I made it sound like I think I am above other people just because of my experience, and nothing could be further from the truth.

Streen wrote: You're forgiven It's perfectly alright. I deserved what you said, because it made me realize how highly I was thinking of myself. Your acknowledgement of it was humbling, so I thank you for that!

In my few years of knowing of you, I would agree, that you have never lead me to believe [edit: "that you thought"] you were better than anyone else...

And, the fact that you have started and are about halfway through, the IP just further proves the point...

I cannot imagine the number of times (this week?) that I have thought "Why am I doing this AGAIN? I dont NEED to dammit!"...

Good on you my friend...

I would like to playfully draw a circle around the Initiate's Program as this exact test everyone is looking for... the willingness to go through it as well as the time requirement, etc... also, the potential for realization that there might be new, golden lotuses of information that haven't been covered yet...

Yes, kinda what I was trying to say elsewhere..

You put it better than I did, lol...

And, no offence to anyone, but, we all need to remember this when another person says "Ive done this" we have to remember that they probably have, but our 'test' IS the IP...

This one guy (anyone remember his name?) did the whole IP in like 48/72 hours...

Did a pretty good job too... But, he got bored with waiting, and left... I wonder how much he absorbed, really.. Maybe he already knew it, I cant remember... :lol:...

We are all experienced Jedi as we are All here - and Jedi. Many who think or have been made Knights by other orders must not "prove" themselves again. But merely re affirm what they should already know, as a knight.

One who walks the path and acts the action of such - is such. One who wishes to do so is merely fantasizing.

May the force be with you.

Streen wrote: You're forgiven It's perfectly alright. I deserved what you said, because it made me realize how highly I was thinking of myself. Your acknowledgement of it was humbling, so I thank you for that!

Streen wrote: it made me realize how highly I was thinking of myself. Your acknowledgement of it was humbling

Jestor wrote: In my few years of knowing of you, I would agree, that you have never lead me to believe [edit: "that you thought"] you were better than anyone else...

Quintilianus: ,,Mendacem memorem esse oportet'', Institutio oratoria 4,2.
Quintilianus: ,,Liars must remember much'', Institutio oratoria 4,2.

Hello Streen,

I wanted to send this message yesterday, but I was not able due to some fun with my pc.. So, please lets talk further.

You have shown me so much in the last couple of days. Many may not know, but I have been talking with Streen about his personal past and website for a little bit. I have been reading his IP, and other things as well. I believe your words that you have the experience, though I must tell took me some difficulty when first seeing your post about it, I never excluded it.

As with the latin quote, I mainly added it because of the part ''remember much'' in proportion to the temple. Some hold too tight to that what is considered the past. Clouding themselves to their own understanding. I wanted to help you, and after seeing that quote I knew, giving words that you have hold with you may be a possibility.

I have to confess that this method of me is some what barbaric to use. And I feel sorry that I humbled you in doing, I know you forgive me for doing, and I am thankful that you do. As Jestor told, he never knew what you told this week. Never expected that to hear.

So I would like to ask you, if you decide to continue your path with br. John. I am willingly to volunteer for your apprentice mentor projects when you are apprentice. To give br. John some easy time in searching subjects for his experiment if you continue in apprenticeship with br. John as your master..
Because reflecting ones actions can do a lot in both directions. I have been asking a lot from you lately by doing. Reflection is a very powerful tool, and I considered to use it because I felt good somehow please do not ask why. Big reason why it is in my motto, now you know..

Enough of the funny part, to get back to my final words. If br. John need a subject for the training of Streen, happy to help you. and you took it with so much calmness. Force be with you all,

~ Aqua

This thread still gets under my skin , this whining was almost a year ago , in this year , i dug my heels in , found a wonderfull Master , almost at the end of my apprenticeship , did the work , and you could have done the same Streen...