Some questions from a passer-by

I get the impression any answers we give at all would not satisfy. I wonder why this is continuing. I no longer see a point

I agree with the assessment of Firewolf and Adder. This 'conversation' has gone on long enough.

Br. John wrote:

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B. Kliban

those are brilliant! especially the last one
thank you for sharing

Hi Reneza!

I'd like to participate in some of your questions with my thoughts. Please bear in mind I'm very new and not any kind of authority here.

Definition of the Force: a ubiquitous and metaphysical power that a Jedi believes to be the underlying, fundamental nature of the universe. I took this directly from the doctrine. This sounds like the same definition of the Tao, if the Tao can really be "defined." Why not just call it the Tao? No idea. But this belief in a higher or farther reaching power, so to speak, must classify as religious.

The remainder of the doctrine is a code of ethics, or how Jedi ideally want to behave. It's mostly a social code and not religious. The religious part of Jediism? Believing in the "Force."

I also like the Wiki definition of religion: Religion is a cultural system of behaviors and practices, world views, ethics, and social organisation that relate humanity to an order of existence.

To answer your question on legal status of religion, see page 9 of this IRS doc: http://www.irsvideos.gov/ChurchesReligiousOrganizations/player/Powerpoint_Presentation.pdf

IRS requirements for a "religious organization" are pretty vague and don't require a denomination. But I'm not sure how TotJO filled out its paperwork.

I also want to address the idea of necessity of all those belonging to a religion to subscribe to the same beliefs without interpretation. Consider the many factions within one religion which disagree. I'll use Judaism as an example, between Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist. In fact, the Central Conference of American Rabbis of Reform Judaism say that "While we may differ in our interpretation and application of the ideas enunciated here, we accept such differences as precious and see in them Judaism's best hope for confronting whatever the future holds for us." And this goes on about the autonomy of the individual in Reform Judaism. (http://ccarnet.org/rabbis-speak/platforms/reform-judaism-centenary-perspective/).

A lack of coherence in religion is, I believe, not unique to Jediism and TotJO.

To summarize my thoughts on Jediism, it is the belief in the "eternal Tao" (called the Force at TotJO) with a code of moral behavior written in the doctrine.

All that being said, I do find the road to Knighthood and all it entails rather vague, but then I am new here.

I also think you've posed valid questions and started a great conversation! Please let me know your thoughts on anything I've said.

Best,
Bin

Well his has been a most enjoyable and thought provoking read. Thank you Reneza and all those who commented.

Reneza, trying to pin down definite beliefs or definitions here is a bit of a comedy festival as you have no doubt discovered. They aren't joking when they say they tolerate opinions of every kind. You will find people who agree and disagree with literally every aspect (Is "Jediism" is religion or not, doctrine, vows, IP, etc).

If I had to try and define the most commonly held belief system here at TOTJO then it is this:

"Religion is just a myth. There is no super human controlling power. No god. As such there is no truth or lie, no right or wrong, no absolutes and no meaning to life. Thus these things are in the eye of the beholder. Or as they say a matter of perspective."

To extrapolate the belief system: "Jediism is a religion because it says it is", "You are a Jedi if you say you are" and "The force is what you think it is".

I hope that helps and I hope you hang around to share more of your thoughts.

I wasn't going to post anymore here as I've mostly gathered quite a good understanding about this whole thing, but then there was this interesting response:

SeventhSL wrote: If I had to try and define the most commonly held belief system here at TOTJO then it is this:

"Religion is just a myth. There is no super human controlling power. No god. As such there is no truth or lie, no right or wrong, no absolutes and no meaning to life. Thus these things are in the eye of the beholder. Or as they say a matter of perspective."

Ok, so this is official "TOTJO" doctrine? Thank you for clarifying this. But if this is so, then it presents problems, because if there is no "truth" there is also no "good" or "bad" and telling people to act in "right" ways is contradictory because there is no such thing.

SeventhSL wrote: To extrapolate the belief system: "Jediism is a religion because it says it is", "You are a Jedi if you say you are" and "The force is what you think it is".

But this ludicrous. If I say "I am a KGB agent" does that make me one? no. If I say that building sandcastles is a religion, does that make it so? no, and it would never be considered such on Wikipedia for example which has a standard of definitions or by any definition in the real world.

Sorry but nothing I say is official. I'm just a member with a lot to learn.

In my mind there does exist right and wrong, truth and lie so like you I logically conclude that the belief system I stated is ludicrous. The thing I love about TOTJO though is that I can try and define it, say it is ludicrous and instead of hateful emotion I get heart felt reasoning and genuine debate.

Reneza wrote: Ok, so this is official "TOTJO" doctrine?

Not that I'm aware of.

Reneza wrote: But this ludicrous. If I say "I am a KGB agent" does that make me one? no. If I say that building sandcastles is a religion, does that make it so? no, and it would never be considered such on Wikipedia for example which has a standard of definitions or by any definition in the real world.

There are plenty of definitions which Jediism meets. Which definition of religion do you prefer?

If the person does builds sandcastles 'religiously', at which point does it become their religion? It could be the most religious thing for that person. Do you need more then one person for a religion to exist? Who has the right to dictate someones experience of building those sandcastles as not being worthy of called their religion!? What happens if you get a few people together who have the same experience of building sand castles, is it a religion then? A million people perhaps? I'd argue it only takes one. Try replacing the work religion with spirituality, it might sit easier for you - remembering religion is supposed to be about spirituality
:side:

I'm not sure of the relevance of the KGB Agent, as its not equivalent to the use of Jedi IMO.

There is Right and there is Wrong. There are Truths and Falsehoods. I can accept the notion the Life had no Meaning but only if you show me something that does have Meaning. God's not the problem - she works. It's all the idiotic things people believe about her that are the problem. Since there is no general consensus on what God wants it's highly likely that nobody knows so it's best to leave it out of issues and use our inbuilt sense of right and wrong.

This site is a Koan.

We have concrete beliefs. They are on the Front Page.

Jedi Believe

In the Force, and in the inherent worth of all life within it. (This could be the Force for Good people working together can create. It might be more.)

In the sanctity of the human person. We oppose the use of torture and cruel or unusual punishment, including the death penalty.

In a society governed by laws grounded in reason and compassion, not in fear or prejudice.

In a society that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or circumstances of birth such as gender, ethnicity and national origin.

In the ethic of reciprocity, and how moral concepts are not absolute but vary by culture, religion, and over time.

In the positive influence of spiritual growth and awareness on society.

In the importance of freedom of conscience and self-determination within religious, political and other structures.

In the separation of religion and government and the freedoms of speech, association, and expression.

---

We're not quite the strange platypus we appear to be. Have you looked at modern Unitarian Universalist Association or Bishop John Selby Spong or Progressive Christianity ?

Can you tell me what the Tao is? What is it like to experience Satori and how do you do it?