Blaming God

I'll try to make this a short story, because there are a lot of details that would make this a novel, so I'll just mention the essential parts.

I was in a car accident 10 years ago. After many surgeries and hospital stays, I managed to heal up and start living a fairly normal life again. Then, this past January, I suffered some complications that landed me back in the hospital for more surgery. Currently I am back where I was, limited by my injuries, and bored out of my mind because I can't do what I love.

For some time now I've wondered if God was punishing me in some way. My assumption was that he is in control of every detail of life and that he put me where I am now. I wondered, why does God cause horrible things to happen? This question has burdened my mind a lot recently. When I think about disasters, and how people thank God for some small miracle when it seems he cause the disaster in the first place, why thank God?

Then I had a realization. We live in a messed up world. Did God make it this way? Of course not. We did that (or some might believe that Satan did). So whenever something bad happens, we can't really blame God for our misfortune because odds are that at the root of the problem is something WE caused. So whenever God steps in and helps, it IS a miracle, because he's saving us from ourselves.

That is, at least, how I see it.

Then I had a realization. We live in a messed up world. Did God make it this way? Of course not. We did that (or some might believe that Satan did).

God gave us free will.
But God is also all-knowing (omniscient).
If God is all-knowing then God knows what we are going to do before we do it.
If God knows what we're going to do before we do it then our actions must already be known and decided.
If our actions are already decided then we cannot have free will.
Similarly God already knows what we're going to think before we think it.
If what we are going to think is already known and decided then we cannot have a choice in thinking it nor agreeing with it (since agreeing with a thought would also be pre-known).

This is a well known philosophical problem for believing in a platonic God such as the Christian God. I'll tell you now both Saint Augustine and Saint Aquinas tried to grapple with this problem and with very limited sucess - that's why it's still a problem

I'm reminded of a comic I wish I could find.

A man sits on a park bench with God and asks Him, "Why do you allow such suffering to exist in the world? Why do so many bad things happen? Why aren't evil people stopped? Why aren't the hungry fed, and the sick healed, and the poor clothed? Why do we live in a world where evil is allowed to run rampant?"

And God looks at the man and says "I was going to ask you the same thing."

Streen wrote: I'll try to make this a short story, because there are a lot of details that would make this a novel, so I'll just mention the essential parts.

I was in a car accident 10 years ago. After many surgeries and hospital stays, I managed to heal up and start living a fairly normal life again. Then, this past January, I suffered some complications that landed me back in the hospital for more surgery. Currently I am back where I was, limited by my injuries, and bored out of my mind because I can't do what I love.

I know exactly were you're at right now - for me it wasn't an accident, but some freak disease that all male members of my family have been affected by - had surgery twice some 17 years ago. Each time with a 2-3 months recovery. A few weeks ago it surfaced again and I just had surgery again last Wednesday. I'm at home now, unable to sit, unable to do anything. Will be another 2-3 months until I'm hopefully well again, with a relatively high probability of reoccurrence. It's nothing life-threatening, but it really has the potential to push you into depression.

For a long time, I too thought that this could be punishment from God for whatever it was I had done. I have since lost my Christian believes and I'm convinced it's a simple genetic flaw with big consequences - some random genetic mutation that's causing it. It's still tough to get the spiritual angle right on it and to avoid depressions and despair. I've already talked about this in another thread here. All I can say is that some people here have helped me a great deal and I'm looking at things from very different angles than I did only a few days ago.

I don't mean to sound insensitive but...

SHIT happens. Life isn't fair. Sucks doesn't it?

I live with pain everyday and just keep doing what I have to do. It could be worse and I believe I am a lucky guy because it isn't worse. These are the cards I've been delt and I'll play them the best I can. My glass is half full.

Peace

@Akkarin

i know this is sort of contradictory and i dont really present it as SOLUTION to the issue of destiny or fate but somewhere along the way i was introduced to the idea that we have multiple destinies - just like the idea of multiple realities or dimensions - and that our highest destiny comes as a result for taking responsibility for our lives and our circumstances to the fullest of our capabilities

that by fully actualizing our inner predilection we sort of enter in to our higher destiny

whereas we also have what could be called a wasted destiny which is what we experience when we fail to live up to our calling and our potential or we cling to the debilitating aspects of our character like self pity and fear and self reflection in general

still paradixical lol i know
and like i said it definitely doesnt "solve" the issue in the newtonian sense of "solving" an equation

but ive come to see paradox as a legitimate force of existence itself and so this notion is useful for my particular inventory

@Rickie
because my glass is half full, my cup runneth over!

Please do not misunderstand me Rickie, I want to ask . . . .

so I too have/had the physical stuff

A horse sat/fell on me . . . lol now it sounds funny AND
i have had cancer

yes, a series of repetitive physical pain issues

So, I would like to ask Rickie a question specifically . . all are welcome

Is there really any difference between God did it to me
And
These are the cards I am stuck with it?

Mareeka wrote: So, I would like to ask Rickie a question specifically . . all are welcome

Is there really any difference between God did it to me
And
These are the cards I am stuck with it?

Very good question.

"god did it to me" I think implies someone or thing is pulling my strings.

Thank you for call me just plain old Rickie.

"cards I've been delt" I think is random fate.

But they can be looked at under the same light. I think the real and more important issue is how you deal with the adversities life delivers no matter what you believe the source is. I can't control god or fate, just me.

When things are going well life is fair and when things are not so well we are getting screwed. It is what it is. I deal with it the best I can and go on.

Peace

I believe we are meant, or, you could say, we have the grand opportunity to learn from from the process of living. This sounds simplistic, but life has born out this truth. Every experience, as it occurs over time, is a process. Relationships, death of a loved one, loss, education, employment, parenthood, health issues...an endless, varied list for us all. Plain fact is I learn more from difficulties than I do from things going in what would seem to be the ideal way.

For me, placing the blame seems like a futile exercise unless you could alter the opinion of the blamed. For me, if God is to blame, then it doesn't matter... It has been shown that God will do what He wants to do, regardless of our asking. It would be unwise, were God extant, to go against Him. So, then the problem becomes for me: What can I do with the cards I have been dealt?

Until I can influence the dealer, then placing blame will have no use for me.

Then I had a realization. We live in a messed up world. Did God make it this way? Of course not. We did that

Sounds like a crappy powerless god to me.
I can't want for churches of the Smackhead Almighty to open. Smackheads who can mess up the world and ruin god's plan clearly should be worshipped.

Streen wrote: I'll try to make this a short story, because there are a lot of details that would make this a novel, so I'll just mention the essential parts.

I was in a car accident 10 years ago. After many surgeries and hospital stays, I managed to heal up and start living a fairly normal life again. Then, this past January, I suffered some complications that landed me back in the hospital for more surgery. Currently I am back where I was, limited by my injuries, and bored out of my mind because I can't do what I love.

For some time now I've wondered if God was punishing me in some way. My assumption was that he is in control of every detail of life and that he put me where I am now. I wondered, why does God cause horrible things to happen? This question has burdened my mind a lot recently. When I think about disasters, and how people thank God for some small miracle when it seems he cause the disaster in the first place, why thank God?

Then I had a realization. We live in a messed up world. Did God make it this way? Of course not. We did that (or some might believe that Satan did). So whenever something bad happens, we can't really blame God for our misfortune because odds are that at the root of the problem is something WE caused. So whenever God steps in and helps, it IS a miracle, because he's saving us from ourselves.

That is, at least, how I see it.

I was born with mild Epilepsy and mild cerebral palsy in my left side. This was due to me having a stroke at birth. I had, and still have a slight bend in my arm and I the most I can turn my left hand is to the extent of if you were shaking hands, there is little to no dexterity in my left hand and arm. I used to have both petit mal and grand mal seizures. to make matters worse, my left foot turned inward for most of my childhood so I kept tripping and falling over my feet, I was, as you can imagine, teased. My mom helped me doing phyisical therapy and we thought my foot would go straight....then gravity took over and it went club-footed. until 16 years of age i used to have to have training wheels on my bicycle. throughout all of this, doctors told my parents I'd never walk again, never be able to live a normal life. I won't lie, I used to think God was punishing me too, why would God allow me to live? why would my parents want to keep such a child? I kept being told the same thing "God has a reason for everything, and he has a special purpose for you" I never gave up, proved the doctors wrong, I can walk on my own, can ride my bike on my own, worked hard and got a Contract job with the FBI for a short while in 1995. and then In 2006 I was riding my bike on the sidewalk, rushing to get home for my "then girlfriend's kids"I saw the lady waiting to turn out, even though I was in a hurry I slowed way down to give her time to go. Sadly she didn't until i was almost in front of her. Long-story short version : Left leg ( the one with the cerebral palsy) fell off and behind the pedal as i turned to try to avoid her, as the front tire of my bike moved into her wheel-well, the pedals rotated and shattered my left leg in four places. Two aspects of different parts of my life that I should have died or gotten hurt worse than I did. Why didn't I? Blaming God does not help, all it does is allows us to vent our anger on questions we cannot answer with simple logic. It is easy to blame God, It is much harder to see he has a purpose for us. It is harder to see that things happen for a reason. Sometimes, when people in our lives die or people that we hear die because of a natural disaster or plane crash, or whatever the horrific thing was, we call it unfair and ask why God would do that. As unfair as I believe it is, I believe why it happens is because God must make room for the ones that are being born. I know that I should have died twice. It IS a miracle that I didn't and I am thankful that God did save me twice. I thank him each day. He put me here for a reason. I feel he brought me here to learn and become a knight, a councilor, and a minister to help others. I know there are many here that believe differently than I do, however I believe that he has put all of us here on earth and together in this temple for a reason. We may not know what it is, we may not understand it, but there is a purpose for everything. I do disagree that he is saving us from ourselves in some extent. I believe God is guiding us, trying to teach us, but he leaves it up to us to make the choices we make.

this is from viktor frankl's "mans search for meaning"

"In attempting this presentation and explanation of the typical characteristics
of a concentration camp inmate, I may give the impression that the human being is completely and
unavoidably influenced by his surroundings. (In this case the surroundings being the unique structure of camp life, which forced the prisoner to conform his conduct to a certain set pattern.) But what about human liberty? Is there no spiritual freedom in regard to behavior and reaction to any given surroundings? Is that theory true which would have us believe that man is no more than a product of many conditional and environmental factors - be they of a biological, psychological or sociological nature? Is man but an accidental product of these? Most important, do the prisoners' reactions to the singular world of the concentration camp prove that man cannot escape the influences of his surroundings? Does man have no choice of action in the face of such circumstances?

We can answer these questions from experience as well as on principle. The experiences of camp life show that man does have a choice of action. There were enough examples, often of a heroic nature, which proved that apathy could be overcome, irritability suppressed. Man can preserve a vestige of spiritual freedom, of independence of mind, even in such terrible conditions of psychic and physical stress. We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way. And there were always choices to make. Every day,every hour, offered the opportunity to make a decision, a decision which determined whether you would or would not submit to those powers which threatened to rob you of your very self, your inner freedom; which determined whether or not you would become the plaything of circumstance, renouncing freedom and dignity to become molded into the form of the typical inmate.

Seen from this point of view, the mental reactions of the inmates of a concentration camp must seem more to us than the mere expression of certain physical and sociological conditions. Even though conditions may suggest
that the inmates were bound to react in certain ways, in the final analysis it becomes clear that the sort of person the prisoner became was the result of an inner decision, and not the result of camp influences alone.

Fundamentally, therefore, any man can, even under such circumstances, decide what shall become of him - mentally and spiritually. He may retain his human dignity even in a concentration camp. Dostoevski said once, "There is only one thing that I dread: not to be worthy of my sufferings."{OB1 note: this is here translated more as "that i do not have the inner resources to meet my suffering with dignity" than that "i fear to suffer in ways which are "unfair" or which i do not "deserve" most understand that but theres always that one (usually ME) who needs things explained very carefully} These words frequently came to my mind after I became acquainted with those martyrs whose behavior in camp, whose suffering and death, bore witness to the fact that the last inner freedom cannot be lost. It can be said that they were worthy of their sufferings; the way they bore their suffering was a genuine inner achievement. It is this spiritual freedom - which cannot be taken away - that makes life meaningful and purposeful

The way in which a man accepts his fate and all the suffering it entails, the way in which he takes up his cross, gives him ample opportunity - even under the most difficult circumstances - to add a deeper meaning to his life. It may remain brave, dignified and unselfish. Or in the bitter fight for self-preservation he may forget his human dignity and become no more than an animal. Here lies the chance for a man either to make use of or to forgo the opportunities of attaining the moral values that a difficult situation may afford him. And this decides whether he is worthy of his sufferings or not."

its a pretty short read but covers obviously some really powerful and meaningful ground, which i thought was quite relevant to the topic

he actually goes on to speak particularly of individuals reaction to medical issues later in the work but i chose to excerpt this particularly because of its universality

heres a pdf for those interested

http://www.anderson5.net/cms/lib02/SC01001931/Centricity/Domain/222/man-s-search-for-meaning.pdf

Streen - I like how you think

Akkarin wrote: God gave us free will.
But God is also all-knowing (omniscient).
If God is all-knowing then God knows what we are going to do before we do it.
If God knows what we're going to do before we do it then our actions must already be known and decided.
If our actions are already decided then we cannot have free will.
Similarly God already knows what we're going to think before we think it.
If what we are going to think is already known and decided then we cannot have a choice in thinking it nor agreeing with it (since agreeing with a thought would also be pre-known).

This is a well known philosophical problem for believing in a platonic God such as the Christian God. I'll tell you now both Saint Augustine and Saint Aquinas tried to grapple with this problem and with very limited sucess - that's why it's still a problem

I've known/known of those who think *almost* this way... although they would put it that God's omniscience is that which allows himself to *potentially* know all, should he wish to, but not necessarily automatically know *everything all at once*, and perpetually, and all the time... unless/until he chose to access it all. In other words, they seem to suggest that he likes to watch things unfold. Like where, in the bible, Adam became aware that h was naked, and hid... and when God was ambling about in the Garden, he was all like, "Adam! Where... where are ya, man??"

It's one of those things that seems to mirror my mental image of Eawawonaka, the Great Creator Spirit, and his personality... which I find kind of nice, because it allows me some sense of common ground when speaking on spiritual matters with those of a Judeo-Christian background. But I digress...

steamboat28 wrote: I'm reminded of a comic I wish I could find.

A man sits on a park bench with God and asks Him, "Why do you allow such suffering to exist in the world? Why do so many bad things happen? Why aren't evil people stopped? Why aren't the hungry fed, and the sick healed, and the poor clothed? Why do we live in a world where evil is allowed to run rampant?"

And God looks at the man and says "I was going to ask you the same thing."

THAT was bloody brilliant!

Everything happens for a reason you make up afterwards.

Invalid consumer key/secret in configuration

That's exactly what my behavior used to be (and still is in some instances).