Evil Hitler

This is a spin off another discussion. I didn't want to introduce a distraction or tangent to the other thread.

I think I can say Hitler was evil and the leaders of the Nazi Party. It seems anyone that embraces the Nazi Party must not think of Hitler as evil? What am I missing here?

History is written by the victors. Yes, we view his actions as evil, but if h had won, he'd be a hero. It only makes sense that those that idolise his ideology to refuse to see him as evil, because no one follows what they think is evil. Everyone is the good guy of their own story, and its hard to be a good guy if you do what you view as evil.

Hate is hate no matter the label you place on it or the color you choose to color it.

Then is seems to me those that idolize his ideology are evil if they recognize it or not?

There is a thing called blind hate . Blind hate lives in a world that is not ... itself. The hate exist because you are not .. it. In that light, blind hate live and dwells and is nurtured in a whole lots of places we deem sacred and some times secret. Hate is hate.
Blind hate lives and can be found in almost everything we see and come in contact with.

Rickie wrote: Then is seems to me those that idolize his ideology are evil if they recognize it or not?

Yes, but only to those that view it differently. Many truths are dependant on your point of view.

(Not defending them, Nazi's are evil in my eyes and have no place in the modern world)

Rickie wrote: This is a spin off another discussion. I didn't want to introduce a distraction or tangent to the other thread.

I think I can say Hitler was evil and the leaders of the Nazi Party. It seems anyone that embraces the Nazi Party must not think of Hitler as evil? What am I missing here?

Historical context, i think. Maybe we should spend some time looking at how and why Hitler was able to come to power?

Arisaig wrote: History is written by the victors. Yes, we view his actions as evil, but if h had won, he'd be a hero. It only makes sense that those that idolise his ideology to refuse to see him as evil, because no one follows what they think is evil. Everyone is the good guy of their own story, and its hard to be a good guy if you do what you view as evil.

Have you made any inquiry into the nazi concentration camps?
Survivor accounts, rescuer accounts, testimonies from Nuremberg Trial?
Theres tons of film of horribly wounded people, tortured people, mass graves and emaciated, half dead human skeletons walking around. Do you think thats all been faked? Lies invented by the victors to make themselves look good?

Arisaig wrote: Yes, but only to those that view it differently. Many truths are dependant on your point of view.

In my point of view its wrong to make sex slaves out of 5 yr olds and then practice samurai sword cutting techniques on them when they get boring. Is that just like, my opinion, man?

Thats a real question but here is another way to phrase it: do you feel there is any line of morality that a person cannot cross without becoming evil for having crossed it?

Arisaig wrote:

Rickie wrote: Then is seems to me those that idolize his ideology are evil if they recognize it or not?

Yes, but only to those that view it differently. Many truths are dependant on your point of view.

(Not defending them, Nazi's are evil in my eyes and have no place in the modern world)

Not the "Devils advocate " by any means but how can light look bright if there is no darkness in sight ? How can forgive, give if not for the vacate of take ? How can we be we, if there is no me?

Made it rhyme hmm
This is a common idea here and although our focus in TOTJO is not the dark or even the presence of the dark or even some times the definition, our intention is what shall we as me and you ...do? The dark the mess is there yes ... no doubt ... but what to do about it ? How do you defend your light against it ? Do you ? Hope that helps in the grand scheme of things - the bigger picture rather than who was what or who did what - more of a push - what will you do....

It is so enticing to categorize things as good and evil. When, in reality, it's very general and unhelpful.

Rather than saying Hitler was evil, I'd say the facts. He was a dictator. He personally saw to the destruction of large swaths of Jewish people He caused a war on a global scale. He is the reason many, many people died.

I don't have to call him evil in order for people to understand who he was.

Connor L. wrote: It is so enticing to categorize things as good and evil. When, in reality, it's very general and unhelpful.

Rather than saying Hitler was evil, I'd say the facts. He was a dictator. He personally saw to the destruction of large swaths of Jewish people He caused a war on a global scale. He is the reason many, many people died.

I don't have to call him evil in order for people to understand who he was.

A many names could join that list then in that light .

Well in this case I think we need to work from a set of similar defintions to have a proper discussion. Oxford and Merriam-Webster and Cambridge are all a good starting point.

Based on this Hitler was indeed evil. He caused deliberate suffering and death to millions and plunged the world into war with a goal of exterminating or enslaving many people. This fits every definition of the word evil we can see above or even the more day to day meaning people have given the word.

He might have started out with goals that are even understandable. Such as saving Germany from what was arguably crippling sanctions put on them by the world after WW1, how he chose to go about those goals and who he picked to blame and worse yet how he chose to deal with those he blamed was reprehensible. While history can be painted with rose colors it does not change the facts. Demonizing people to justify the slaughter of innocent people does not make the slaughter ok. It just fools the blind into accepting the reasoning.

I mean I still find the act of Hiroshima and Nagasaki despicable even if the outcome was, by and large, better then the alternative of a land war in Japan. It does not change the fact that the US slaughtered countless innocent lives in the act willfully and knowingly and could have avoided it. Now having been in the military I know better than most that bad things have to be done by good people in war. But there are lines and Hitler crossed so many as to be unforgivable in my eyes.

Arisaig wrote:

Rickie wrote: Then is seems to me those that idolize his ideology are evil if they recognize it or not?

Yes, but only to those that view it differently. Many truths are dependant on your point of view.

(Not defending them, Nazi's are evil in my eyes and have no place in the modern world)

If truth is dependent on point of view then do you espouse a philosophy of might makes right?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Arisaig wrote:

Rickie wrote: Then is seems to me those that idolize his ideology are evil if they recognize it or not?

Yes, but only to those that view it differently. Many truths are dependant on your point of view.

(Not defending them, Nazi's are evil in my eyes and have no place in the modern world)

If truth is dependent on point of view then do you espouse a philosophy of might makes right?

If enough people band together with the same viewpoint, the same sense of right, then yeah, might through numbers makes right. But a single person strongarming their way around trying to prove themselves right in a sea of people who think they're wrong, they will go unheard.

Arisaig wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Arisaig wrote:

Rickie wrote: Then is seems to me those that idolize his ideology are evil if they recognize it or not?

Yes, but only to those that view it differently. Many truths are dependant on your point of view.

(Not defending them, Nazi's are evil in my eyes and have no place in the modern world)

If truth is dependent on point of view then do you espouse a philosophy of might makes right?

If enough people band together with the same viewpoint, the same sense of right, then yeah, might through numbers makes right. But a single person strongarming their way around trying to prove themselves right in a sea of people who think they're wrong, they will go unheard.

So if your town or nation decided your entire family who have done nothing wrong ( IE never broke a law, they just exist peacefully) needed to be tortured and then killed it suddenly becomes moral and right just because numbers are on their side? Im sorry but not just no but heck no and there is nothing in the Jedi code or any Jedi teaching that would give credit to this.
The fact is that just because enough people support something vile does not make it right. There are things that are wrong in and of themselves no matter how we try to justify them.

The belief that the earth is flat is (somehow) becoming more and more popular.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies


Here is a picture of the earth, taken from space....



Here is a picture of the earth from +30,000 ft. Notice the curvature.




Heres an article that explains how you might prove for yourself that the earth is round.
https://www.space.com/38931-kids-can-prove-earth-round.html

Yet, people still believe the Earth is flat. More and more every day, it seems.
Can the actual shape of the earth be changed by public opinion?
If people refuse to hear the truth because they dont like it, or because they dont like the messenger, is the truth less true? Or are the people who refuse to listen just wrong?

@Ob1 We are talking about morals not scientific facts. The earth is round, that is fact no matter how much people argue. Morals, however, change with the demographic, psycho-graphic, and beliefs of the group.

@Hatter Yes, unfortunatly that would make it morally right in their eyes. Thankfully we have an unspoken set of morals in my country that people adhere to. Torture is agreed on, generally, to be wrong. Those that think it right are in the minority, and so it is wrong. The Nazi's did not think genocide was wrong because they all agreed. They were the majority in their area, so they acted on it. The rest of the world rebelled against that and fought against the injustices. That is the Force balancing itself. What is wrong will find light rising to meet it.

Example, in the 10:40 Window (an area where being a Christian isn't illegal, but no one will stop a lynching and torture of Christians) it is perceived as wrong to be Christian. You can be killed for it. You can be tortured to death for it. You can find yourself being machete to death in the street by a stranger for it. And the police wont bat and eye. That is because the majority think it to be right. Do we think its right? No, of course not. But we have a different viewpoint. We'd stop that kind of stuff. Does that mean its wrong there? No. Unfortunately, to say it is to them would be racist and very ethnocentric.

EDIT: I'm not saying I condone these wrongdoings, im making a valid argument. Life is sacred, and I'd do anything to stop these acts.

Guys, he's taking about morals. Let's not jump to extremes.

JLSpinner wrote: Guys, he's taking about morals. Let's not jump to extremes.

We're talking about morals in the context of Hitler being morally justifiable. Thats pretty extreme.

We dont always talk to each other with sugar plums and bubbles around here but im pretty sure Arisaig is one of those people that most everyone likes. Im betting that he is as safe here as a person can be expressing an opinion on the internets lol

OB1Shinobi wrote: We dont always talk to each other with sugar plums and bubbles around here but im pretty sure Arisaig is one of those people that pretty much everyone likes. Im betting that he is as safe here as a person can be on the internets lol

Ahwe shucks Ob1.

Arisaig wrote:

EDIT: I'm not saying I condone these wrongdoings, im making a valid argument. Life is sacred, and I'd do anything to stop these acts.

By what right would you stop them? If you think that their morality is on the up and up by what right do you try to get involved? You have already said one man trying to stop the majority is to be ignored.
Further, how is it not condoning an act to call it moral?
To help your answer this is the actual definition of the word here.

JLSpinner wrote: Guys, he's taking about morals. Let's not jump to extremes.

As Obi1 said we are talking in the light of extremes of behavior by the very topic. Plus Arisaig is one of the people here that can take a bit of back and forth. If I was being a jerk or not behaving like a Jedi he would call me on it or at least I hope he would.