Fight the Disrespect from One by Disrespecting All?

I imagine the sentiments here will be mixed, particularly given the international diversity this Temple has, and given the fact that not all of you are/were American Football fans of any sort...but I am somewhat curious as to what your take might be on the question of fighting the disrespect of one public figure, by having a couple hundred other public figures disrespect the entire nation?

For a little preview of my general take, see a below post I made elsewhere...

For other context, just Google anything with the words NFL and National Anthem together and you should get a smattering of takes on it from other perspectives.


Dear NFL:

I make a concerted effort to keep out of these sorts of issues, but your actions this weekend have inspired me to take actions myself, and in ways I never would have otherwise.

I have been an NFL fan my whole life, and never once thought anything could ever change that.

Today, I am done.

I have zero respect for people that have zero respect. It's that simple. All politics aside. You want to be a role model, but are so quick to take offense and show all your fans that being disrespectful is appropriate behavior for a "professional" public figure?

How is it that you can kneel during my National Anthem, talking about inequality and complaining that the POTUS disrespected you, while you make hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars a year, then turn around and disrespect the ENTIRE country, to try and make your point about inequality and not wanting to be disrespected? The hypocrisy level here is unreal.

If you want people to listen to you, if you want to show unity and courage to stand up for what is right, then you should be standing taller than you ever have during the Star Spangled Banner, singing at the top of your lungs, draping your shoulders in red, white, and blue.

The American Flag and National Anthem are not symbols of the current administration, or representatives of a single issue you may disagree with. They are symbols of EVERYTHING that makes our country great. Including your opportunity to earn a ludicrous living doing something you love to do. Play the game. Don't abuse your platform. You can't fight disrespect from one by being disrespectful to all.

Not only will I no longer attend, watch, or listen to any of your games. I will not wear your gear. I will not watch any programming from any networks who air your disrespectful "protests", and I will not spend my money on any goods, services, or products of the companies that sponsor the NFL. Not a single dollar I make will go towards a revenue stream to pay you to kneel during the Star Spangled Banner.

You are professional athletes...for entertainment...get over yourself. I am over you.

Thanks for giving me my Sundays back.

A disgusted former fan.

On a (similiar?) issue (not limited to the USA)-


How about pulling all your goddamn heads in -

You are sports players, elite athletes, and when it comes down to it, entertainers.

Stay in your bloody lane, you're not given a soapbox to promote any damn issue you please just because you happen to have the stage for a moment.

You're obviously welcome to your private views, as are (most) citizens of (some) countries, but the second you leverage your "fame" for some (any) other agenda, I have no time for you at all.

That goes for anyone else in any of the other realms of entertainment - If you want to enter politics, you're free to do so, if you're just under the wildly mistaken impression that your political views are more valid that someone elses because you've made a few million with a pretty voice and some side-boob, then kindly shut the hell up.

JamesSand wrote: On a (similiar?) issue (not limited to the USA)-


How about pulling all your goddamn heads in -

You are sports players, elite athletes, and when it comes down to it, entertainers.

Stay in your bloody lane, you're not given a soapbox to promote any damn issue you please just because you happen to have the stage for a moment.

You're obviously welcome to your private views, as are (most) citizens of (some) countries, but the second you leverage your "fame" for some (any) other agenda, I have no time for you at all.

That goes for anyone else in any of the other realms of entertainment - If you want to enter politics, you're free to do so, if you're just under the wildly mistaken impression that your political views are more valid that someone elses because you've made a few million with a pretty voice and some side-boob, then kindly shut the hell up.

^THIS...is also a general sentiment of mine. If you disagree with how things are going, politically, then run for office yourself. Reagan was an actor-turned-President...even Arnold got involved and served two terms as the Governor of California. You don't like something, do something to fix it, directly. Did Caesar ever solicit the political opinions on domestic policy issues from gladiators? Has any country, nation, kingdom, or civilization ever relied upon the influence of athletes and entertainers to guide their political arena?

SamThift wrote: You are professional athletes...for entertainment...get over yourself. I am over you.

Thanks for giving me my Sundays back.

A disgusted former fan.

The fact that you posted this shows you are NOT over this.

I am curious if you see any inconsistency in the fact that you consider NFL players "JUST entertainers" yet get offended that they make a political stand (hint: if you truly did see them as "just entertainers", their political statements should be inconsequential).

The beauty of democracy and freedom of speech is that allows people to leverage their popularity towards causes they care about. Apparently this person cares about it enough to risk a negative impact on his career. What are you risking with your letter?

Manu wrote:

SamThift wrote: You are professional athletes...for entertainment...get over yourself. I am over you.

Thanks for giving me my Sundays back.

A disgusted former fan.

The fact that you posted this shows you are NOT over this.

I am curious if you see any inconsistency in the fact that you consider NFL players "JUST entertainers" yet get offended that they make a political stand (hint: if you truly did see them as "just entertainers", their political statements should be inconsequential).

The beauty of democracy and freedom of speech is that allows people to leverage their popularity towards causes they care about. Apparently this person cares about it enough to risk a negative impact on his career. What are you risking with your letter?

Fair points and questions.

I suppose in one sense, being "over it" was not truly accomplished if I felt compelled to write the piece...or even engage further in dialogue here. I am "over" the decision hurdle of whether or not I wanted to express my distaste for the whole situation though, as I chose to do so.

On the second point, I would not specifically say that I was offended that they have an opinion simply because they are just entertainers. I think JamesSand made a bit of that point more directly above. Though I wholly welcome their opinions and beliefs, but to the extent that mine matters just as much as theirs does thus my opinion is equal to each and every one of those, although I will not get anywhere near the attention they do.

The last point is undefeatable. It is 100% true that the ability to leverage notoriety to further other unrelated causes exists, and not only within democracies.

In the truest response, however, the medium within which I first posted on the issue does open my professional career to negative impacts as well. Otherwise, my "risk" is just as negligible as theirs.

SamThift wrote: I would not specifically say that I was offended that they have an opinion simply because they are just entertainers. I think JamesSand made a bit of that point more directly above. Though I wholly welcome their opinions and beliefs, but to the extent that mine matters just as much as theirs does thus my opinion is equal to each and every one of those, although I will not get anywhere near the attention they do.

What I get from JamesSand's implied point (I say implied because it is what I understood, I might be misreading) is that it is distasteful for people to "shove" politics down our throats. I don't disagree with it, I can understand how it can be off-putting to want to be entertained and having that turned into a political platform. However, a famous person leveraging their fame to get the "word" out is the natural consequence of the leadership that comes with fame: people close to him might be suffering and have no voice, and he is giving them a voice. The fact that he is famous does not make his opinion more valid, only more noticed.

The title of this post seems to assume that what he did was in fact disrespecting everyone, when I think that is not necessarily true. Did he disrespect everyone? Did he somehow bring dishonor to the country? Or was his gesture simply off-putting because it brought an ugly situation out into the open, precisely to the sort of shows we like to use as a drug, to get away from such ugliness? I can't help but feel his only "crime" was to make people feel unsettled.

Honestly, I was surprised to find out that football players are sitting out the national anthem again. Wasn't this a big issue two years ago?

JamesSand wrote: You are sports players, elite athletes, and when it comes down to it, entertainers.

Stay in your bloody lane, you're not given a soapbox to promote any damn issue you please just because you happen to have the stage for a moment.

I agree with this to a spiritual level. These people are paid millions to pass a ball around... to play a GAME. They think they're top of the world, but in actual fact their names mean nothing anywhere else in the world, and heck, even lose meaning to their "biggest fans" mere five years after retirement in most cases.

I find no disrespect with the kneeling. Yes it's during the national anthem, I understand. What value does a nation have if it doesn't value it's people? We all have the freedom of speech and expression in the US and it shouldn't be removed because it causes discomfort. Infact I encourage thoughts that cause discomfort.

Manu wrote:

SamThift wrote: I would not specifically say that I was offended that they have an opinion simply because they are just entertainers. I think JamesSand made a bit of that point more directly above. Though I wholly welcome their opinions and beliefs, but to the extent that mine matters just as much as theirs does thus my opinion is equal to each and every one of those, although I will not get anywhere near the attention they do.

What I get from JamesSand's implied point (I say implied because it is what I understood, I might be misreading) is that it is distasteful for people to "shove" politics down our throats. I don't disagree with it, I can understand how it can be off-putting to want to be entertained and having that turned into a political platform. However, a famous person leveraging their fame to get the "word" out is the natural consequence of the leadership that comes with fame: people close to him might be suffering and have no voice, and he is giving them a voice. The fact that he is famous does not make his opinion more valid, only more noticed.

The title of this post seems to assume that what he did was in fact disrespecting everyone, when I think that is not necessarily true. Did he disrespect everyone? Did he somehow bring dishonor to the country? Or was his gesture simply off-putting because it brought an ugly situation out into the open, precisely to the sort of shows we like to use as a drug, to get away from such ugliness? I can't help but feel his only "crime" was to make people feel unsettled.

I suppose "distasteful" and "off-putting" are rather accurate.

My main point of contention was that in the immediate case of activities surrounding the issue, they were "disrespected" by ONE person, and thus chose to disrespect the singing of the National Anthem and the display of the US Flag. So my leading question, evidenced by the subject line, was whether it is appropriate to fight something by doing the same thing.

We sort of tossed around the same concept in a different thread weeks ago, about whether violence to counter violence was appropriate.

Now I understand circumstances and specifics matter...but my largest frustration with the entire debacle is more around the question of why we continuously trend towards hypocrisy when these public issues and questions surround us?

After all...many of these players earn millions...yet promote the attention of socio-economic inequality...which depending on how you skinny the issue down, they are part of the income disparity issue itself...

JLSpinner wrote: I find no disrespect with the kneeling. Yes it's during the national anthem, I understand. What value does a nation have if it doesn't value it's people? We all have the freedom of speech and expression in the US and it shouldn't be removed because it causes discomfort. Infact I encourage thoughts that cause discomfort.

It is true. We can view the Anthem and the Flag as mere symbols...and since the veneration of those symbols, or lack-there-of varies depending on who we ask...we all assign different qualifications for "respect" and "disrespect".

Yet the immediate example was very nearly directly intended as an attitude of disrespect...that is the entire perceived point of these sorts of "protests"...just as if someone were to burn the flag as a form of protest, it carries an immediate notion of disrespect.

I am not questioning the value of their "free speech and expression"...just their choice of a means by which to express displeasure when a specific other well-known person openly disrespects them.

It seems rather childish to me that the whole thing has devolved into a battle of "Who can be more blatantly disrespectful"...and we all know how that turns out.

JLSpinner wrote: I find no disrespect with the kneeling. Yes it's during the national anthem, I understand. What value does a nation have if it doesn't value it's people? We all have the freedom of speech and expression in the US and it shouldn't be removed because it causes discomfort. Infact I encourage thoughts that cause discomfort.

^This. But I would add my opinion that engaging in peaceful protest to call attention to injustice both is, and shows the highest respect for, an American ideal. Dump the tea in Boston harbor to protest unfair taxation, and you're a patriot. Boycott the buses to protest racial inequality, and you're a civil rights icon. Take a knee to call attention to the unfair treatment of young men of color by police and prosecutors? Good on you.

And to the idea that persons with fame and/or notoriety somehow have less justification to engage in protest by virtue of their fame, I would argue that their fame might well give them a larger responsibility to call awareness to the issue. "Shut up and sing" doesn't sit well with me, never has. At best, maybe five people might ever hear anything I say about an important issue. If you got a million people watching, and you don't take the opportunity when moved to do so?

Oh yeah, one more thing: yesterday was the first time in recent memory that I saw a network actually cut away from their pre-game analysis to even broadcast the singing of the anthem. How are talking heads continuing to talk over the national anthem any less disrespectful than taking a knee?

It's probably intended to indicate the concept of escalation. They know who their audience is, and so if the requests of the cause are not met, then expect to see more protest infringe more and more into your life. As they have other avenues to protest.

And they could defend it by saying their protest is actually in line with the nations values, and that the audience needs to be informed that the 'flag has fallen', as a patriotic duty, that the nations values are being abandoned by the leadership (in their opinion).

So while it was a really respectful way to be disrespectful, lol, it is pushing some boundaries given they have other viable avenues of protest (given their profiles and wealth) and that the culture and climate of racism in the US is.... complex.

As long as it doesn't hurt anyone and was solemn I don't mind. But it sets a precedent to go off the rails, and I agree with others here, they are just sports people, give us a break..... if I want political advice I'll ask a Kardashian :sick:

Sam, I mean no offense here, but how do you know their intentions? Did you ask them? Did you read everyone's mind?

I ask this because we are all guilty of assuming intentions now and then in life. We project our own feelings onto others and infer nefarious motives.

I grew up every morning standing with my hand over my heart and reciting the pledge of allegiance and during assemblies and during football, wrestling and other sports throughout my life stood in honor of the flag of the United States of America. I don't hear that as often these days except special events I've been to. Every time, I do get that chance I stand and sing along and it brings tears to my eyes every time I love this country.

I understand the America that I grew up in is a far throw from the America that younger folks are living in today (I'm 31). Perhaps, that's a bias opinion it appears every generation thinks their gen. is better than the current growing up gen. My parents thought my gen. was very ungrateful (And we are), My grandparents generation thought their gen. was better than my parents and so on.

Perhaps also, to hold an attachment to a flag and country isn't right for a Jedi to hold because we speak of Universal perspectives not national but, what is good for all people and things in our world. However, this is one situation where I do not agree because I love this country and for what it has stood for and we've done good holding on to these certain core values. I think as time has gone on society has gone from being about the good of the people to the good of the individual. Those who knelled during it to me are not heroes it's rude and disrespectful. I know it some countries in the world you could be imprisoned for showing disrespect of this nature.

Jesus said, "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's"
My point being:

No matter where you are and this goes for Jedi as well. Honor those your around regardless you like or believe in it or not be respectful of others and their feelings. Just got with the flow.

Sven One wrote: I grew up every morning standing with my hand over my heart and reciting the pledge of allegiance and during assemblies and during football, wrestling and other sports throughout my life stood in honor of the flag of the United States of America. I don't hear that as often these days except special events I've been to. Every time, I do get that chance I stand and sing along and it brings tears to my eyes every time I love this country.

I understand the America that I grew up in is a far throw from the America that younger folks are living in today (I'm 31). Perhaps, that's a bias opinion it appears every generation thinks their gen. is better than the current growing up gen. My parents thought my gen. was very ungrateful (And we are), My grandparents generation thought their gen. was better than my parents and so on.

Perhaps also, to hold an attachment to a flag and country isn't right for a Jedi to hold because we speak of Universal perspectives not national but, what is good for all people and things in our world. However, this is one situation where I do not agree because I love this country and for what it has stood for and we've done good holding on to these certain core values. I think as time has gone on society has gone from being about the good of the people to the good of the individual. Those who knelled during it to me are not heroes it's rude and disrespectful. I know it some countries in the world you could be imprisoned for showing disrespect of this nature.

Jesus said, "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's"
My point being:

No matter where you are and this goes for Jedi as well. Honor those your around regardless you like or believe in it or not be respectful of others and their feelings. Just got with the flow.

For the most part I agree with you. However I encourage anyone to voice themselves against issues that they cannot ignore. Our blade defends the wicked. While these men probably aren't Jedi, they felt compelled enough to risk fine, penalty, and abuse to let everyone know that the status quo isn't good enough anymore. We can't ignore these issues and hope they go away. My view, any who.

Racism is a big deal to me, as I consider it one of the defining topics of the current era. I reject the marxist push for class warfare (aka group identity politics) but i also recognize the need to be honest about our society and our history, and be willing to admit our flaws and update our views and policies. I dont believe the police shootings should be viewed purely or even primarily as an issue of racism, but i acknowledge that blacks as a group are affected by it more than whites as a group, and i understand that to many black people it looks like "white america" really doesnt give a shit if they get murdered and beat, and unfairly arrested and convicted.
I dislike the move to politicize everything and turn everything into a group identity vs group identity campaign, and i dont absolve anyone of the consequences of their own bad decisions, but i also would like to see mainstream white americans be willing to say "ok i acknowledge there is a problem, lets fix it", rather than complaining about a slight (very slight) deviation in the normal pattern of their football game.

Police (and government generally, but its especially time to focus on the police) need to be held accountable when they mistreat american citizens, and no offense is meant to OP or anyone else but i think that's way more important than football.

Frankly, I don't see how Colin Kapaernick was being disrespectful at all. Honestly, taking a knee looks more "respectful" than standing. In any case, he didn't do what he did to "disrespect" the national anthem or the flag (which no more deserves respect than the red, white, and blue cloth it was made out of). He did it to bring attention to and protest the social injustices in this country.

Just because these people that are protesting police violence and the inequality that still runs rampant in this country have a few million dollars doesn't make them any less an American citizen with all the rights (and privileges) inherent in being such. For Zeus's sake Trump is a friggin BILLIONAIRE and apparently no one cares that he, in a public speech, referred to American citizens as "sons of bitches" and suggested that NFL teams (part of the private sector of the economy, which the president should have nothing to do with apart from trying to improve the economy anyway he or she can) fire them simply for exercising their constitutional right to protest. If anyone is being "disrespectful" or "unamerican" it is our "president."

Furthermore, the minute we make it illegal to protest the national anthem is the minute we invite in things like the Espionage act with its subsequent amendment the "Sedition act." The minute we say it is not OK for American citizens to protest or make a statement about anything is the minute we invite in abridgements to free speech and our other "unalienable" rights.

A. Colin Kaepernick raised awareness of an issue. He didn't create the issue. Using his fame to shine a light on injustice is no different than any other celebrity telling you to donate to a children's hospital or save the shivering and beaten animal by donating to PETA. Fame is a mouthpiece, but it still has to be used with an effective message to make a difference. His message was clearly received by many other members of the NFL who agree. It is Donald Trump who is off message and misusing his mouthpiece of fame and power. Ask yourself, who has the ability to launch nuclear weapons and who feels powerless even being approached by cops. Then ask yourself who should be held to the higher standard.

B. These players do not get invitations in the mail to join the NFL. They work their entire lives to reach that level and their families often make huge sacrifices in order to make the dream of playing at a professional level come true. It is unfair to discount the work they put in to gain the money and fame if you won't hold our "president" to that standard. He called these people "sons of bitches" on a Twitter account followed by millions. What good has Trump done to earn his billions? Inherit his daddy's money? Scam people? Declare bankruptcy? You want to point out hypocrisy? The president is slapping you in the face with it.

C. The flag and anthem represent a nation founded on a Constitution. The First Amendment of said Constitution is first for a reason. It guarantees freedom of SPEECH and the right to PEACEFUL protest. NFL players are exercising this right with RESPECT for the Constitution and the nation that was founded by it. To call their action disrespectful is to wholly misunderstand the founding principles of this nation. It is disrespectful to these individuals and every other American to imply that the Constitutionally guaranteed rights do not apply to them, or anyone else for that matter. Our military swears to protect and defend the Constitution, not decide who gets the benefit of it. Disagreement with the message of protest does not give anyone the right to deny the fundamental INALIENABLE rights. These were not granted by the government or a president. "Inalienable" means these rights are inherent and granted by a higher power and cannot be taken away by a misguided bafoon on social media.

D. I am an Eagle Scout and believe every strongly in treating the flag and our anthem with respect, but the hypocrisy of people complaining about players kneeling while eating a cheeseburger off of an American Flag paper plate in the parking lot of these games is way too obvious. How many people at home or in the bar get off the couch or bar stool during the anthem, if it is even played on TV at all? You know that trendy thing of displaying a huge flag over the field during the anthem? That is in direct violation of the code that designates proper display and use of the American Flag. Wearing it as a fashion statement is also against it. Saluting it out of uniform used to be against it until recently. Too many people think they know what is respectful and not without even researching the history or correct behavior concerning the flag. People are uninformed.

E. Multiple owners of NFL teams donated millions of dollars to Trump's campaign to give him a platform to call private citizens "sons of bitches" and then he called on them to deny the rights of players and for them to be be fired for no just cause at all, so let's not pretend that money or fame or power has ANYTHING to do with the protest being made here. It is about corrupt policy and the complete lack of civility in politics and law enforcement. It's people on the other side who have the money and power.

I appreciate the thoughts on the subject. I understand the underlying motives and issues as being valid and needing attention. I recognize the importance of the first amendment, and do not intend to suggest that my original post or others made in this thread, are directed at the actual policy questions, issues, or rights being exercised in the actions.

I personally do hold a higher affection for the United States Flag and the Star Spangled Banner, and do not view them as mere fabric and music. They are symbolic of something greater than an individual or single issue cause. I am aware that not everyone holds those symbols with the same regard, and to the extent that is their perceived "right" to express themselves in ways that seem unproductive to me, so be it. I am sure many of them would find my thoughts or actions to be unproductive too. Though it remains my right to be disgusted with their behavior.

To clarify/re-iterate: My primary point of contention, as suggested in the thread title, is more to question the appropriateness of the actual implied actions that they sought to fight disrespect by being disrespectful.

My mom would call that: Childish Response #4. "Well...Tommy was doing it too....!"


P.S. It was not the intent of my original post, or as far as I can tell,any of my follow-on responses, to discuss the merits of the underlying questions entirely. I have attempted to specifically keep the discussion geared towards how we handle our selves and whether the tit-for-tat actions were necessary, on either side for that matter. We could certainly discuss domestic policy and inequalities, as those are valid issues needing attention...but I feel those questions belong in a different thread.

Not, the tit for tat shouldn't be necessary. But for those involved, maybe they are running out of options. In a perfect world we could all talk rationally and find compromise. In this world sometimes you have to improvise.