Church, Clergy, Disciples, etc...

This might seem really dumb to some, but I have a concern/question about how TOTJO is organized. I'm a believer in the force and Jedism as a way of life. However, I'm anti church, anti preaching, anti cult, anti religion, etc... I don't follow Jedism because I need something greater in my life to comfort me, nor do I need to know someone is looking out for me or protecting me or that there is an afterlife to save me.

For me Jedism just is, I feel it every waking moment, and in my dreams. Its part of me, and something I can't refute. Even if I never saw Starwars, I always new I felt different than others. Starwars just helped put a name to it. I was born and raised Jewish, but never felt right. My friends were of many different religions and nationalities. I don't know of any that broke away from their respective churches the way I have, and I'm not looking to go back.

I love the idea of a Jedi community, where I can collaborate with others, share ideas, and make friends. I'm bothered that this site seems to be making it a lot about a religion instead of a belief. I don't need clergy, titles, priests, bishops, deacon's or anything else resembling a church. To me a church dictates control, power, oversight. For me this is the exact opposite of what Jedism is all about, and I'm concerned you might not be right for me. Have others had similar thoughts, or discomfort with how things are ran, and if so I welcome any comments and conversations around it all before I decide if I'm ok with it or not.

Thanks

The difference between TOTJO and what you are referring to usually includes things such as dogma, which TOTJO doesn't institute, nor does it institute authority of any belief upon anybody here. The concept of Jediism as a religion is simply one of personal congregation, to come together to celebrate and learn about both the similarities as well as the dynamic varieties of what we each believe and the experiences we have through them. Titles here represent one's personal progress in learning about themselves, as well as commitment to contributing to the community through service. In any case, the religious approach, in even this form as well as any other form, is completely optional to each member. There is more than plenty general philosophizing and scientific discussion and even simple down-to-earth socialization about things among the temple.

In the end, the experience you get from being here is what you choose to make it.

Any organization needs leaders. Even in video games, guilds and corporations, need good leadership in order to be successful.

I haven't been here long, only since May, but I've found that the 'titles' designates more of a role than a rule. SOMEBODY has to write the sermons. SOMEONE has to maintain the servers. *shrug* You get out of this what you want to. You can read the sermons or not. It's up to you. I've never seen any of the clergy stomping around and crushing us littles underfoot. I've only seen them offer bits of insight.

Take of it as you will. No one will make you do anything

Yeah I see a lot of christianity bleeding into the jediism to the point some people call this christian buddhism ,but there is another side. Not everyone is like though, although it is ingrained in some people here so hard they can't seem to escape it. I myself follow more of a Bushido, spartan, success psychology. Just lead by example and have your ideas challenged. If your right others will want to follow your example. In following the warrior way I would say:

Maybe you're right. Maybe we aren't right for you. Why are you so concerned about that? I'm not concerned about it at all.

Go then! Fly to another site, or to another forum, or to another master, or wherever. Don't waste your time with things that don't resonate with you. You're life is getting shorter and you're spending it trying to convince yourself to change or to make others change... Doesn't seem right to me.

Thank you all for your comments and insight, I appreciate all the feedback.

Connor Lidell, I'm sorry you're so quick to dismiss. That wasn't my intent, just the opposite. You commented "I'm trying to get others to change" and that doesn't sound right to you. Please reconsider what I asked, because I beg to differ, as my intention is the exact opposite. I'm concerned the idea of a church is to make people change, instead of allowing people to find their own way. Most everyone on this site seems to be open to following ones own path, which is ideal in my opinion. I only asked the question because I fear a Church or a Cult is trying to control, dictate, and force ones beliefs on others. So far I've not seen anyone doing that, so I questioned why have the Church notions in the first place. You don't need Church to follow religion and if we take Jedism into our hearts do we need a church to do it? I'd rather see Apprentice Jedi, Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters as a distinction of ones accomplishments. To me fewer levels is better, as Jedi no one should need the gratitude of a bigger title. This is just my opinion, and as a new member to the site, I'm trying to understand what others believe and what the culture and intent of the site is.

Quadgnim wrote: Connor Lidell, I'm sorry you're so quick to dismiss.

I don't tend to waste my time.

I'm concerned the idea of a church is to make people change, instead of allowing people to find their own way. Most everyone on this site seems to be open to following ones own path, which is ideal in my opinion.

Then you're misinformed. Not how this site works. Of course, I know you stated that earlier. I'm not questioning that.

You don't need Church to follow religion and if we take Jedism into our hearts do we need a church to do it?

This is what I'm talking about. If you have to ask this question, then why bother?

Obviously, there has been a church here since 2005. Hundreds of [active] members have found use in the church. Maybe I'm quick to dismiss, but I'm just not the type of person to give you the answer. I'm also not the face of the church. hahah. Which, is good.

If I were you, I would just either do it... or not do it. Take the training. Or, don't. Be in the church. Or don't. Either way, you will see the purpose of it in time.

Others here will give you the answers you want. I won't, though.

I'm not sure Connor was dismissing... Connor himself is a member of a number of different Jedi sites and speaks from experience when he says there are alternatives to TotJO.

At the same time, let me say when I arrived here I absolutely shared your perspective, but lacked the eloquence to express it as well as you have. It may surprise you to learn (or you may think I'm a complete sheep for admitting), less than three months later I am undertaking seminary myself.

The clergy here are not like the clergy I have found elsewhere. As a central part of our path, defined here as "religion", is that it's personal and unique to all of us, the clergy are essentially charged with counselling those in need, and deepening our understanding of the Force. They are the essayists of our beliefs and the keepers of important parts of our doctrine .

I won't try and convince you, but suggest you spend some time here, perhaps experience some live sermons in chat and see what you make of it. For me, all my (numerous) misgivings were answered within a week or two. And, if not, as Connor suggests we're not the only Jedi site out there - if you don't like what is a central element of this particular site, why not have a look at some of the varied alternatives? I'd already be sad to see you go and hope you won't... but there's no point in coming to a religious Temple to bemoan religion

Yes! Listen to tzb. He is much nicer than me. hahaha.

I felt a bit awkward that you'd already replied while I was typing, ha ha!

I don't understand why we are being so hostile and angry at someone just because they asked a question.

Why shouldn't be embrace others of a different view?

I think we would, and do... we just ask that they embrace us, in kind.

tzb wrote: I think we would, and do... we just ask that they embrace us, in kind.

Who are we? Are we all the same? Does someone here know what the one true jediism is and everyone else can fly away?

Well, to defend myself, I'd like to point to my first reply.

"Maybe you're right. Maybe we aren't right for you. Why are you so concerned about that? I'm not concerned about it at all."

People put too much importance on the Jedi church/temple/site/whatever.

More important than that is the community of people. If a person is so concerned with the type of website they are at, then they should either stop worrying about it or they should leave. Don't spend so much time trying to build up this magical place where all weary travelers come to. This is not a novel.

There are so many options for jedi who want to be a part of the community... go to a place that you resonate with. I just recently stopped resonating with the responsibilities I took on here at TOTJO, so I let my position of Clerical Secretary go. There's no emotion to it. No over-romanticized rubbish about feelings or dogma or anything like that.

I think the OP of this thread has over-romanticized what the format of this website means. And, if he/she ever wants to be free of that delusion, then I will talk about that. I have made it clear that the format of the church is not the big deal here. It's non-dogmatic. The reason for it is that people have resonated with it. People are attracted to church because it makes them comfortable. And, I'm sure people will swoop in and give their own reasons too. Have at it!

Thank you all. Please realize my question wasn't with intent to challenge or disrespect. I was just trying to understand the ideals of the site and if it is as it appears in the few short days I've been online or if I'm misinterpreting something. It's true the site might not be right for me as I want more of an open dialog and social gathering of like minded people. Maybe this site has that, I'm not sure. If however the structure is more like a traditional church with all of us listening to sermons without an open back and forth conversation then it's not for me. I don't want someone telling me what to feel or how to act. I want a place to have a dialog, make friends, share ideas, treat everyone as equals. My question was to figure out which this site is, and I'm getting mixed feedback from different people so I guess I need to give it some more time.

Try it out for a bit. Don't ask for opinions because limited perspectives are never truthful.

Just stick it out for a month or so.. go to services, take an IP lesson or two.

Then, make a decision.

I agree with Vesha... When did asking a question suddenly become a crime? And Connor, if you're so concerned about wasting your precious time, why'd you bother replying to this thread at all....you know...since you don't care and all? Which seems to me a waste of time in itself and the opposite of what a Jedi is but meh, maybe that's just me. Of course, there's that nice little saying most of us learned in kindergarten: if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.

So, Quadgnim, I don't know how to answer your question, but I can share my own experience and maybe that will help you. It took me three years to come around to even joining TotJO because I hated the idea of turning the concept of being a Jedi into a religion. Of course, due to my own experiences growing up, I had a very scewed image of what a church and a religion was supposed to be. To be honest, I hadn't even thought of this place in a long time, then a few months back I just felt pulled here. I ended up joining and starting the IP that very day simply because it just felt like something I needed to do.

I have never regretted my decision. I was still a bit concerned about the whole church/religion concept to start with, but it was through the IP that I found for myself what a church and a religion is truly meant to be. I have never once felt as though I was being preached to or told to believe a certain thing. It's always been about finding my own truth within myself, but the knights and the clergy are there to help us find those answers if they can (because they will gladly tell you when they just don't know), and to keep this place running smoothly so that we have a safe place of learning and growing.

It's also a great place for meeting like-minded people. And yes there are other "Jedi" sites out there, but I have never seen one that I have actually resonated with or felt pulled to. I truly believe the Force led me here for a reason.

I don't know if you've had the same type of calling to be here or what you might get out of being here, but I encourage you to stick around and just get a feel for it. You might be pleasantly surprised.

And Connor, if you're so concerned about wasting your precious time, why'd you bother replying to this thread at all....you know...since you don't care and all? Which seems to me a waste of time in itself and the opposite of what a Jedi is but meh, maybe that's just me. Of course, there's that nice little saying most of us learned in kindergarten: if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.

I'm not wasting it. Never claimed I was. Nor, was I saying anything not nice.

I think the idea of the site is to learn, and only you can decide weather this place is right for you or not.
Call it what you wish, Church, website, path, they are just names.
Connor's right, try it, do some of the IP attend a service then decide, or don't, it's your journey.

TOTJO is what you make of it.

Yes, officially, we are a Church. Yes, I am a Priest, and we have Bishops, Deacons, Ministers etc, who sometimes deliver services and sermons, among other things.

Does everyone attend services and read the sermons? Of course not. Does TOTJO begrudge those who choose not to? Never...as long as those present here are mindful and respectful of the fact that we are a Church, we are happy for you to do as you like...

If it's discussion and open dialogue that you are after, there is plenty to be found here...the message boards are just the starting point - try the chat room, or Skype. Send PMs, make friends...you'll quickly find that all of your time online is spent in deep discussion and contemplation

As for whether we are Cult-like (as you mentioned)... We're prepared to accept that some people may have a bit of a question mark over that, which is why we have a lesson on it as part of the Initiate's Programme. Maybe you'd like to have a go at it? You can find it here , if you're interested.

And, as to whether the purpose of the Clergy is to tell people what to believe...I hope not. I like to think that we support and accompany people as they form their own understanding of what Jediism is all about. We generally act and speak within the confines of TOTJO's doctrine , but even within the Clergy we each have a slightly different interpretation of what the doctrine means...it's not meant to be limiting or restrictive.

Stay, or go, it's up to you... But, please don't make your decision on the basis that every single member sits around doing nothing but reading sermons and praying to the Force. Although, some of us do do that, some of the time... :blush:

But there are a huge variety of people and personalities here...and I can guarantee that there are plenty of others who are not enthusiastic about the religion stuff. You're not the 'odd one out'. We welcome everyone, and we would love for you to give us a chance and stick around for a while

Feel free to PM me if you want to chat.