Am I allowed to call myself a Jedi in this Temple if I...?

I believe in the death penalty for those who have proven over repeat chances that they are irredeemable or who commit atrocities too heinous to be allowed to be a part of society.

Should I abandon the Jedi Path, just leave this Temple, or am I okay to stay and study here?

I've been away for a while to try to find my own answer to this dilemma, but I can't bring myself to think differently about this.

Persi_Stance wrote: I believe in the death penalty for those who have proven over repeat chances that they are irredeemable or who commit atrocities too heinous to be allowed to be a part of society.

Should I abandon the Jedi Path, just leave this Temple, or am I okay to stay and study here?

I've been away for a while to try to find my own answer to this dilemma, but I can't bring myself to think differently about this.

If the Death Penalty was fairly applied, did not depend on where you committed the crime, did not matter what color your skin is, did not make any difference if you had no money or millions of dollars, you might reasonably believe in it. But it's not the case. Too many former Death Row inmates have been released and exonerated. Since it's common for someone sentenced to death to wait 10, 20, even 30 years or more before their execution, nobody can say that persons too dangerous to be allowed to be a part of society cannot be contained without killing them. What do the states and many countries do that do not have The Death Penalty?

I hope you will stay here and study.

I hope you can explain how the Death Penalty is applied justly, equally, and fairly. If you can't, why to you support something that depends on where the crime is committed, depends on if you can afford outstanding attorneys, and is biased against people of color?

You would have to be on a jury and vote to kill someone, be a judge that gives and order to kill someone, or be an executioner to know for sure that you believe in The Death Penalty. If you have not done that, or if and until you do, you don't have an issue here with believing you believe in The Death Penalty.

If you are to question me on my support of the Death Penalty under some circumstances based on guilty people being released or the inconsistencies brought about by regional differences, then how is one meant to support laws at all? How can we know we're doing good ever if what's right or wrong varies based on locale, and beyond that can be excused based on the skill of a lawyer? Am I meant to believe that shoplifting shouldn't be punished because I got away with it when I accidentally forgot about a tin of mints I intended to pay for, but put in my pocket and forgot about? I deeply believe the greater sin in the case of being in the jury would be leaving the unquestionably guilty serial killer alive to kill only more people than his one life is worth.
In addition, as someone who identifies as homosexual without having engaged in heterosexual intercourse, I fail to grasp the supposed need to personally pass the sentence in order to understand whether I truly believe something that I already know I believe.

You are welcome to be here, train if you wish, and be a Jedi.

I'm not ignoring your response. I don't have time to discuss it this minute. I don't want a day to pass without you having a clear answer to your question about being here.

Welcome to The Order

Persi_Stance wrote: I believe in the death penalty for those who have proven over repeat chances that they are irredeemable or who commit atrocities too heinous to be allowed to be a part of society.

Should I abandon the Jedi Path, just leave this Temple, or am I okay to stay and study here?

I've been away for a while to try to find my own answer to this dilemma, but I can't bring myself to think differently about this.

Dilemma this is not . You can stay here , learn here and call yourself a Jedi . Just because you don't exactly agree with one stance of the temple doesn't mean you have to leave . Personally I believe the same as you . Take some of the big serial killers that killed tens of people , they do infact deserve not to live . I feel if you take someone's life without a cause like self defense or protecting others ( also other causes ) then yes you deserve the same fate . Do not abandon a path just because you don't agree with one thing . People with other opinions is what makes this place lively and some interesting posts as well as arguments . Look at me I'm a Trump supporter when one thread was talking about you can't be a Jedi if you support Trump I still stayed , no one told me to leave . No one is telling you to leave and if they are then truly they have not learned what this temple is trying to teach them . Acceptance is a main teaching here , you have to accept people for who they are and there differences . Accept the good and the bad of others . Yes we teach forgiveness but it is hard to forgive someone when they take one of your family members life , or friend . It is almost impossible to for give someone who takes something so precious from you or your community . I will forgive someone who done me wrong , stole from me , or hurt me but to take a love one's life I cannot forgive that .

I deeply believe the greater sin in the case of being in the jury would be leaving the unquestionably guilty serial killer alive to kill only more people than his one life is worth.

Just for own my interests - are you suggesting the death "penalty" is appropriate as a response to what someone has already done, or what they might do in the future?

JamesSand wrote:

I deeply believe the greater sin in the case of being in the jury would be leaving the unquestionably guilty serial killer alive to kill only more people than his one life is worth.

Just for own my interests - are you suggesting the death "penalty" is appropriate as a response to what someone has already done, or what they might do in the future?

What I think persi was meaning by this is if the killer is already on trial and without a doubt the killer did it then the killer needs to be dealt with before they do it again .

What I think persi was meaning by this is if the killer is already on trial and without a doubt the killer did it then the killer needs to be dealt with before they do it again .

Okay. Cool. So - Just for own my interests - are you suggesting the death "penalty" is appropriate as a response to what someone has already done, or what they might do in the future?

Persi_Stance wrote: I believe in the death penalty for those who have proven over repeat chances that they are irredeemable or who commit atrocities too heinous to be allowed to be a part of society.

Should I abandon the Jedi Path, just leave this Temple, or am I okay to stay and study here? ...

I would disagree strongly with your stance on the death penalty ... but that said, hope that you will still feel welcome here. If a difference of opinion was enough to cast someone out from my social circle, I'd likely be a hermit.

I know that the values espoused on TOTJO's home page stand explicitly in opposition to the death penalty, and that could create a situation of conflict for you. However, I think that unless we are willing to become dogmatically robotic in our thinking, we have to learn how to tolerate such a situation now and again. There are Catholics who reject the notion that the Pope is infallible. There are Protestants who don't fully accept the Apostle's Creed that their church requires them to periodically recite. There are Americans and Israelis and Brits and Russians who love their country, but criticize some of its actions and dominant values. Their discord with the institutions of which they are a part do not (usually) cause them to be cast out.

Malicious and I debated briefly about the merits of Donald Trump's presidency, but I don't wish he was gone. I like him, and I think he's sincere in his pursuit of truth and understanding here. Like the others who've answered so far, I hope you'll stick around.

It's 20 years on average between offense and execution for all Death Row inmates in the US as of 2016. That's average. It's not unusual to look at the list and see some who are beyond 30 years. 25% of Death Row inmates die of old age / natural causes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_death_row_inmates_in_the_United_States

What is so important about sentencing someone to death that life without parole does not solve? Please don't say it costs less.

There are procedures and secure holding cells for dealing with extremely dangerous individuals. There's plenty of those. If we sentence a serial killer to death and they are going to be around 20 years or more before they are executed, if we have been holding them for that long why can't we hold them longer; until they die on their own?

Who said anything about releasing guilty people? People who were sentenced to death have been exonerated, that's a fact, and such an one is not guilty but wrongly convicted.

There are people on Death Row who have not killed anyone. Did you know that? Any problem with that?

Are you OK with the 13 countries who have the Death Penalty for being Gay? I won't be visiting any of those.

My debating this should not make anyone feel less welcome. We debate things here constantly.

I think you should. Some people are so devious, they deserve the death penalty.

I think you should. Some people are so devious, they deserve the death penalty.

Real estate agents, for example.

Persi_Stance wrote: I believe in the death penalty for those who have proven over repeat chances that they are irredeemable or who commit atrocities too heinous to be allowed to be a part of society.

Should I abandon the Jedi Path, just leave this Temple, or am I okay to stay and study here?

I've been away for a while to try to find my own answer to this dilemma, but I can't bring myself to think differently about this.

Your not just asking one question here from my understanding. I don't agree with your belief in the death penalty, but I did at one point.
I don't think based on that you should abandon your path or leave this Temple. Maybe part of what you choose to study here could be an in depth look at the death penalty and alternatives to it. Giving yourself a larger awareness of the issue and educating yourself. To me its never a waste to look at your beliefs and maybe learn something new,a different perspective.
I always thought everyone was free to stay here and study wether they call themselves Jedi or not. So I personally don't see a problem with this.
If you can't find a different way of looking at this then maybe make a forum post to discuss, but I would only do so if you are ready to listen to other peoples thoughts on the issue?

I remember your name and hope you find a way to do what you wish.
Welcome back

JamesSand wrote:

I deeply believe the greater sin in the case of being in the jury would be leaving the unquestionably guilty serial killer alive to kill only more people than his one life is worth.

Just for own my interests - are you suggesting the death "penalty" is appropriate as a response to what someone has already done, or what they might do in the future?

Sort of both.

I believe it would be unfounded to kill someone who only killed once without giving them a chance at redemption. I also believe it would be unfounded to kill someone who was seen to kill someone by a future revealer even if the method in question is usually or even always right.

I believe taking a life is necessary when it is done to someone who has proven that they are not interested in redemption, who is so undeniably vile that their actions would contradict when they say they want to change. There's a point where it doesn't add up to let those who are incapable of goodness go free, and there is a point where that incapability is undisguisable.

I believe taking a life is necessary when it is done to someone who has proven that they are not interested in redemption, who is so undeniably vile that their actions would contradict when they say they want to change. There's a point where it doesn't add up to let those who are incapable of goodness go free, and there is a point where that incapability is undisguisable.

Why would they go free? Life without parole means they never get out of prison. Someone sentenced to death routinely spends 20 or more years in prison before being executed. If they can be held securely for that long, why can't they be held until they die? 25% of Death Row inmates die before they're executed now.

Life is sacred. But take ones life is not ours to take or we ourselves are murderers. Let them sit in prison and study and reflect on their wrongs in life and hope they’ve converted and repented their ways...killing them teaches nothing the dark side...they’ll not learn anything from this.

Killing for vengeance, even in the name of justice, is killing out of hate, born from fear and anger, which makes one no better than the offender, and is, as we all know, a path to the Dark Side.

You drop down to the offender's level if you abandon mercy.

Killing could be acceptable in self-defense, but only in the direst of circumstances.

If the offender is already incapacitated or captured, then executing them in cold-blood is unacceptable.

I want to weigh in here. I agree that some crimes are worthy of death. There are some things that you can do that the only repayment is as permanent as the scares you leave from your crime.

However, the justice system is run by humans. Verdicts and trials are judged and given by humans. Humans are flawed. As such a permanent punishment that cannot be undone is not ethical. The risk of an innocent person's death far out weights any cost of the guilty sitting behind bars for life.

We can fix life in prison to some extent by paying large sums of money to " make whole " an innocent party that we jailed. But we cannot fix death. As such I do not think it the proper stance of a Jedi to advocate for granting the state the power to end your life outside of self defense or defense of others.

To enact the death penalty on one based upon your belief of what they may do in the future is a dangerous path to tread. Fear of one can lead to prejudice and lack of faith, if you have not faith in a fellow human being due to your own internal distrust than do you not lack the fundamental beliefs of a Jedi? One must be able to set aside fear and act upon only those instincts necessary to maintain harmony. Just as one can be swayed by fear, leading them to act out against those deemed evil, one who is believed to be evil is likely driven by the same conflicts aforementioned; to believe that one is beyond the realm of redemption could be argued falls into the darkness of dealing in absolutes. While I will not argue with the idea of escalation in the face of growing indiscretions, as such may be necessary to maintain order amongst the masses, I would far further suggest tighter means of control and oversight before one is put to death.

Thank you for posting this, OP. This is a question I took into account before registering, yet will not be an obstacle to me applying to be a member and working through the path. I'll begin my response by paraphrasing what my late grandfather used to tell me regarding capital punishment: "If we hadn't hung horse thieves, this country would've never gotten west of the Mississippi."

For context, I was born, raised in, and reside in, the United States. My grandfather's words are in reference to the country's westward expansion. In those days, if someone's horse (or anything they depended upon for their daily lives) was stolen, their livelihood was stolen, and it was viewed as equal to severely damaging (or even taking) the theft victim's life. However, it's also said that "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

In theory, I support the existence of capital punishment. I think it should be an option to use for what I consider the most heinous of criminals who take or damage multiple lives. I consider these crimes to be:

• mass murder
• serial murder
• serial sex offenders (think child molestation, human trafficking, etc.)
• serial rape
• terrorist acts where multiple lives are claimed or multiple people are severely maimed
• treason where the traitor's actions genuinely put the lives of their countrymen at risk

However, other commenters have raised the issue of executing the innocent, keeping the condemned for many many years before execution, etc. The criminal justice system has absolutely unfair elements to it.

In conclusion, I think so long as the penalty is applied fairly, I think it should be a hypothetical sanction available (as a last resort!) for use by a legitimate and fair authority. As a man raised to be a soldier, I believe those with the capacity and authority to use force should be prepared to "take a life to save a life" or ideally, take a life to save many others.