Ending the Myth of Racism

Some may be tired of this subject in general. That's okay. If you don't like it or if it makes you uncomfortable, please understand that I don't have an agenda or any desire to make anyone feel bad. In a way, these discussions from me are a compliment to this community because I feel like this community can handle these discussions and in away that we can heal and grow from. I can't say the same thing about the general masses. But in the scope of spiritual enlightenment and growth, these topics can be part of that journey because spirituality has a lot to do with how you see yourself, and all things being relative, how you see others.

This is also a act of love because I share things with this community because I love you guys and so I wanted to share this video interview with Jane Elliott because I love her, her attitude, and her work. I have so much respect for her and what she says. I wanted to give everyone the opportunity of hearing some of her insights and I'm more than happy to discuss them if you'd like, publicly or privately, or if you want to just take it as rhetorical that's fine too. We're all here to grow and interact with each other on our spiritual journey.

note: Myth of Racism in this context means the existence of different "races"

Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QJIu15VjQg&t=28s

Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJuG26-4XUQ

Part 3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0Fk3EiU_mY


And if you have another video like this one, feel free to share it in this thread and help to challenge our perceptions and perspectives in a positive way. I'd love to see every issue or controversial subject have a thread kinda like a video diary, raising consciousness about that issue along with healthy discussion.

And as always, if you have any questions, feel free to ask. I promise, if anyone attempts to jump down your throat for asking an honest question I will jump down theirs. I will defend even the most racist person on the planet if they are asking a sincere and honest question. So don't be afraid.

ZealotX wrote:
Part 3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0Fk3EiU_mY

Zealotx, Im actually disappointed in this post, especially in the light of our recent discussion. I understand your position but this woman is the opposite of what you should be advocating to be a spokesperson for your cause. She is a reverse racist and a sexist in the extreme. I wont go into it any further than that except to say that she also makes many minority racist remarks in her comments that Im surprised you did not find offensive. Case in point, I would like you to listen to her comments in the video clip I quoted above from time stamp 6:30 to 7 minutes and then compare what she says to the below video clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m5S91y3fL8

Come now, VV, white people are evil. Heterosexual white males are the devil, especially if they lean right. (Humor)

What did we do now? Oh, right... we enslaved black people or something like that. Funny, since they were enslaving and selling their own people as well. Ah... money... the need of it... desperation. How such things bring people to do such harm to each other.

Still, funny thing about slavery... it’s always a choice. Somewhere, there is a choice, even under the most effective control, it’s still a choice.

Pardon the rambling...

My point may have gotten lost in my attempt at sarcasm and dark humor. Still, I think this whole race mess is ridiculous. People are going to dislike people for various reasons, race is just one of those reasons.

VixensVengeance wrote:

ZealotX wrote:
Part 3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0Fk3EiU_mY

Zealotx, Im actually disappointed in this post, especially in the light of our recent discussion. I understand your position but this woman is the opposite of what you should be advocating to be a spokesperson for your cause. She is a reverse racist and a sexist in the extreme. I wont go into it any further than that except to say that she also makes many minority racist remarks in her comments that Im surprised you did not find offensive. Case in point, I would like you to listen to her comments in the video clip I quoted above from time stamp 6:30 to 7 minutes and then compare what she says to the below video clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m5S91y3fL8

I'm sorry to disappoint you since I do hold you in high esteem. However, the point that both women made is correct and it is an argument a lot of people have made on both sides of the aisle. Kelly Osbourne cited one specific job and some people didn't like it because they consider that job demeaning... beneath them.

I have a different perspective on that. You see... I know people who do work that would be considered in the same way. My best friend worked for many years as a school janitor. That's a specific job that a lot of people wouldn't choose to do. But guess what? I never looked down on him for doing it. Now he works for the school system in landscaping. Would I want to do those jobs? No. Would he choose to work those jobs (and work 2 jobs to maintain his financial situation) if he had better options? Of course he probably wouldn't.

People tend to do those jobs because they don't have better options. There's a white guy who cleans the building at my job everyday. Difference is he probably owns the company and gets paid more than the guy cleaning toilets for Trump. I know an exotic dancer who does the same thing. Many jobs in this country are performed by people who don't necessarily want to do them... but they have to. And doing what they have to, especially as opposed to criminal enterprise, is not demeaning. It's respectable. Saying that someone cleans toilets... or takes their clothes off on stage... you may not choose to do it, but all of these jobs deserve a level of respect. So it depends on the context. Jane Elliot didn't say, oh they're doing menial labor and we need them to keep doing that because that's all they're good for. No, she stated a fact. They are doing menial labor. Companies are hiring to do that menial labor. And if they weren't doing that menial labor then who would? But guess what? The next generation, going to our schools, are probably not cleaning toilets. And either they or their children will probably be doctors and lawyers and other jobs we all wish we had.

What if everyone thought trash collection was beneath them? Fortunately.... yes... "fortunately" for those of us who need our trash picked up, not everyone feels that way about their job. Or even if they do, they do it anyway. It's in our best interest that their circumstances maybe didn't provide them with every option. Because we need people to pick up our trash. At least for now. But I'm not demeaning them at all. I respect them for doing a job that few people, if any, actually want to do. So don't mistake what Jane was saying just because it sounds bad. It's the truth. And it's not only true here. The majority of Chinese workers are below the poverty line. Where do you think Walmart gets its low prices from? But if we never stop to think about those people and what they're doing for so little... how will things ever change? I think you're being too hard on both these women. Neither one were trying to insult anyone.

On what level do you mentally interact with people? Some view our entire species as a virus. Any cruelty, any injustice is valid on a human level if you ask the right person. It almost seems pointless.

I imagine the true ideal of discussions like this are asking us to consider what type of person we are, ourselves. Changing someone else just isn't in the cards, not really.

Before anyone says I'm just dismissing everything as pointless, i assure you I am not. We are human, after all, and the greatest achievement we can attain in life is deciding instead of allowing that decision to be made for us.

Zelotx, I’ve cleaned toilets, I’ve made crazy good money in film, I’ve worked fast food,, I’ve landscaped, done demolition, worked commission, coordinated weddings, funerals, been a sales manager, decorated cakes, arranged flowers, marketed, made logos and magazine covers... and handled guns. I don’t look down on people for their jobs.

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: Come now, VV, white people are evil. Heterosexual white males are the devil, especially if they lean right. (Humor)

What did we do now? Oh, right... we enslaved black people or something like that. Funny, since they were enslaving and selling their own people as well. Ah... money... the need of it... desperation. How such things bring people to do such harm to each other.

Still, funny thing about slavery... it’s always a choice. Somewhere, there is a choice, even under the most effective control, it’s still a choice.

Pardon the rambling...

My point may have gotten lost in my attempt at sarcasm and dark humor. Still, I think this whole race mess is ridiculous. People are going to dislike people for various reasons, race is just one of those reasons.

yeah... I'm trying to appreciate your "dark humor" about slavery. For some reason it fails to land. Perhaps a joke about the holocaust maybe?

I think sometimes, some people try to use humor as a way to deal with their discomfort on a certain topic. The thing though is, you may unintentionally be rubbing salt in people's wounds.

Like Jane said... whites invented the idea about race. So, do you not see the irony in saying that black people enslaved and sold each other. Do you not see it? I can see how it could be confusing so let me say it another way.

There was no such thing as "black people" as a racial group. So "they" were not doing anything to anyone, much less themselves. People divided themselves into nations and tribes, not colors. So when you take color out of that equation what you see is one nation defeating another or one tribe defeating another. And every tribe wasn't hostile or war like. Many tribes were pacifist. And what you call slavery would be better translated as indentured service.

Allow me to explain further.

When you have a king, the king owns the land, right? The king grants land and titles to knights and noblemen, right? Those people then extract taxes from people living on that land. There was even a time, yes, a time when black Muslims conquered Europe which brought along with it several advancements in math, medicine, and waste/water management.

Now as it was in the bible, these things were common practice in many parts of the world. People who were in debt... people who didn't own land (and therefore no animals) often needed to work for other people... on their land. The man who gave birth to the 12 tribes of Israel in the bible was such a worker. And when the conquered (according to the bible) people those people were either forced to pay tribute or if they fought they took their land and even their women as spoils. And yes, many women, back in those days as well, if they didn't have families to financially support them sometimes turned to prostitution. See the need to survive has always existed but the means aren't always the same.

The problem is assuming that everything that is now called "slavery" and "human trafficking" was the same. Assuming that all slaves were either sold or stolen, that all slaves were unpaid or locked up in chains, that all slaves were whipped and beaten, etc. is simply ridiculous and not an accurate reflection of history. No, chattel slavery in America was special because it was based on race. And because it was based on race it was especially cruel. It wasn't the same as people who looked like each other, selling their workers or servants. In America, slave owners believed their slaves were less than human... 3/5ths to be exact. And so they treated them like animals, raped their slave women, abused and separated families, etc. "slavery" is an English word, not an African word. So saying that "slavery" is the same thing... no, sorry. I cannot agree nor do I think you would agree if given all the facts.

ZealotX wrote: I'm sorry to disappoint you since I do hold you in high esteem. However, the point that both women made is correct and it is an argument a lot of people have made on both sides of the aisle. Kelly Osbourne cited one specific job and some people didn't like it because they consider that job demeaning... beneath them.

I think you are missing the point of my post. I was not implying that the job being performed is menial. I respect anyone willing to work hard in any job no matter if its cleaning toilets or the CEO of McDonalds. My point was that in both these cases those jobs were characterized as being primarily performed by minorities, in this case Mexican minorities. How do you ever expect people to stop viewing a "race" of people in a discriminating way if you refuse to even stop stereotyping them into specific roles? Both the women in the video were guilty of this stereotyping. And you notice that in the first case, no one called her out on it, but in the second case she was called out on that stereotyping. Where is the consistency in that?

ZealotX wrote: People tend to do those jobs because they don't have better options. There's a white guy who cleans the building at my job everyday. Difference is he probably owns the company and gets paid more than the guy cleaning toilets for Trump.

Now you are doing it! You claim the black person cant get a better job and so he is forced to be a janitor but the white guy doing the exact same job must own the company just because hes white??!! How can you not see the bias here?

ZealotX wrote: Jane Elliot didn't say, oh they're doing menial labor and we need them to keep doing that because that's all they're good for.

Actually, that is exactly what she implied. She said the economy would be negatively affected if we didn't have Mexican's in this country (minority) picking her avocados! How is that not racist? What would happen if all the Mexicans came here and became doctors. Who would pick her avocados then?

ZealotX wrote: And if they weren't doing that menial labor then who would?

And then comes your reply, which backs up her statements. Another racially motivated statement. Maybe young white females just having gone through puberty would do it. Oh that's not a stereotypical comment at all, right?

ZealotX wrote: I think you're being too hard on both these women. Neither one were trying to insult anyone.

And yet they so successfully succeeded in insulting others! Accidental or not what is the difference. If I accidentally used a pejorative to describe your person would you be less offended just because it was an accident? Now don't get me wrong, I am not a language cop, I think people should speak their minds and have whatever opinions they deem worthy no matter whether they are totally off their rocker or not. The thing that pisses me off is to take some radically extreme leftist like this intolerant character you posted and try to use her as a voice of reason. Its just not working my friend.

rugadd wrote: On what level do you mentally interact with people? Some view our entire species as a virus. Any cruelty, any injustice is valid on a human level if you ask the right person. It almost seems pointless.

I imagine the true ideal of discussions like this are asking us to consider what type of person we are, ourselves. Changing someone else just isn't in the cards, not really.

Before anyone says I'm just dismissing everything as pointless, i assure you I am not. We are human, after all, and the greatest achievement we can attain in life is deciding instead of allowing that decision to be made for us.

I interact with people on whatever levels in which communication is open and honest. You can't change anyone. However, people tend to adapt to their environment. Therefore, you don't have to change anyone. Instead, you make it a choice. Did I make you click the link for this thread? Or did I simply put it in your environment? You clicked the link. I didn't force you. If you watch the videos, well I didn't force you to do that either.

So the proposition is not one of force or trying to change anyone. It's simply adding to the sunlight and the rain and putting nutrients into the ground. The choice is yours.

One of the things that has been discussed is the views of children from majority white schools vs majority black vs mixed. The larger problem, that I see, is isolation. The more any organism is forced to grow in its own bubble, the less exposure it has to things outside its environment, the greater the fear, the apprehension, etc. Look at human attitudes towards the possibility of alien life? What would an alien think if it watched our movies? What would it think if it watched Independence Day?

Some of us fantasize about humanity working together against an alien threat and our image of alien life usually looks nothing like us and is "ugly" to some degree. Because of our fears of their hostility and nature we are willing to act on that fear instead of looking at our own hypocrisy as there are those of us who would want to dissect them as much as there could potentially be those of them who'd like to do the same to us and are just as afraid of us as we are of them. I'm making a point, not saying alien life exists. The point is how would we treat it if it was? Would that depend on their technology and what we could gain?

A lot of people see "others" the same way they see aliens and its unfortunate. If aliens lived among us like that one show a long time ago where an alien was a police officer, we would segregate and at the same time more densely populated communities would have more contact, less fear, and less negative feelings. Some look at black people and want to start a race war, why? Because.... they're afraid of a race war? Doesn't seem to make sense, and yet... this is what we're dealing with.

The subject of race is like a swimming pool with cold water. Some people jump in. Others stick a toe in. Many say, "that water's too cold so I'm just going to stay out" and many look at others in the pool and think about how crazy they are to be in that cold water, rather than that maybe they're not cold after awhile... that they warm up and by actually participating (or swimming) they're providing their own heat which alleviates their discomfort.

But like I said, getting into the pool is always a choice

...unless its not inside your environment.

VixensVengeance wrote: I think you are missing the point of my post. I was not implying that the job being performed is menial. I respect anyone willing to work hard in any job no matter if its cleaning toilets or the CEO of McDonalds. My point was that in both these cases those jobs were characterized as being primarily performed by minorities, in this case Mexican minorities. How do you ever expect people to stop viewing a "race" of people in a discriminating way if you refuse to even stop stereotyping them into specific roles? Both the women in the video were guilty of this stereotyping. And you notice that in the first case, no one called her out on it, but in the second case she was called out on that stereotyping. Where is the consistency in that?

It's not stereotyping any more than saying most of the black people in my home city live on the west side. Is that stereotyping? Does mean everyone on the west side is African American? Not at all. You're viewing these statements in absolute terms. No one said that only minorities do those jobs. What we're saying is that minorities have less opportunities and are therefore MORE LIKELY to need to do these jobs as a legitimate source of income. You're not going to fix racism/white supremacy by denying facts. Illegal immigrants do not have the same opportunities as immigrants with H1B visas. They simply don't. My father immigrated to the US from Jamaica. And for a time he worked as a Janitor. But he also went to school, completed a degree, and became a computer programmer.

As his son, my opportunities were better and he made sure that our family owned a computer at a time with many families didn't have one. And now I'm a programmer. The reason Kelly said something about Trump's toilets, and I wish I had thought to say this sooner, wasn't that all minorities clean toilets but rather that Trump has been known for hiring illegals to do these types of jobs and that is what the last lady was saying before the clip ended. Talking about ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, not Hispanic people, Mexicans, etc. Illegal immigrants getting hired to work as fortune 500 CEOs simply isn't a thing that exists. There is, in reality, a ladder and they start out at the bottom. I'll refer back to this popular metaphor in a second.

VixensVengeance wrote: Now you are doing it! You claim the black person cant get a better job and so he is forced to be a janitor but the white guy doing the exact same job must own the company just because hes white??!! How can you not see the bias here?

No, you're confusing ignorance with experience and statistics. So the white guy... is the ONLY guy I ever see doing the cleaning. If he was an employee you'd think at some point you'd see someone else; especially if he goes on vacation, takes sick days, etc. Because he's by himself and isn't a younger guy, its a safe assumption having knowledge of other white people who have talked to me about doing a similar business. As an owner you're going to be making more than an employee which makes cleaning a more attractive proposition. Now on the other hand, my best friend is an employee. When I worked at my last job, that's when I saw other black people; at 5:00 when the cleaning staff came (not saying no one else in the company was black). They were employees. The fact is that whites have a TENDENCY to have better/more opportunities (thanks in part to white supremacy) than minorities which is reflected in jobs which is reflected in the wealth gap; creating the experiences and statistics I'm reasoning from.

And let me say this... a job is not a person and doesn't have feelings. You can't stereotype a job (at least the way you mean it). You stereotype people. If I said black people are only employees, that could MAYBE be an attempt at stereotyping. If I said black people tend to be employees, that's not stereotyping. Something that is merely "typical" isn't automatically "stereotypical". A stereotype is "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing." I have to see a lack of black business owners to work to change the conditions to enable more black people to become business owners. So again... we have to see the problem before we can solve it.

However, the jobs that most available to people with illegal status are TYPICALLY the jobs that no one else wants to do. And while you can imagine some white girl who has dreamed of working in a chicken factory since she was 10, when a farm actually decided to hire Americans what they found was that they couldn't find enough. So there's just not a lot of white people calling about working in agriculture. Many of the ones who do either own the farm or their family does.

And please trust that this distinction I'm making between illegal and Hispanic is important and is the reason why many Hispanics (legal status) actually voted for Trump.

ZealotX wrote: Jane Elliot didn't say, oh they're doing menial labor and we need them to keep doing that because that's all they're good for.

VixensVengeance wrote: Actually, that is exactly what she implied. She said the economy would be negatively affected if we didn't have Mexican's in this country (minority) picking her avocados! How is that not racist? What would happen if all the Mexicans came here and became doctors. Who would pick her avocados then?

Geez...

"Jane Elliott is an American former third-grade schoolteacher, anti-racism activist, and educator. She is known for her "Blue eyes–Brown eyes" exercise. She first conducted her famous exercise for her class on April 5, 1968, the day after Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated."

She was talking about how WE, as a society, and the Trump administration, are treating black and brown people. She was specifically talking about the whole "build the wall situation". Again... her words have context. You have to start at 5:10. And hell no, that's not racist. It would hurt the economy because obviously you can severely underpay them, which people do. If they had to pay a US citizen it would increase the cost of the produce because they'd have to pay a competitive wage to entice citizens to do it. She's not saying this is all perfect but rather that we aren't ready for the consequences if we were to send everyone back. WE, collectively, eat those avocados and benefit from that cheap labor. That's what she's talking about. Just like WE, collectively, shop at Walmart and benefit from that cheap foreign labor. WE get all this benefit but WE (not you or I personally) are scared of them taking our jobs.

And no, the immigrant fresh off the boat, isn't necessarily a candidate to take your job. But their kids? Their kids kids? Yes. That's not my concern nor her concern. She's saying that whites will be in the minority and they should be ready for that. To me that's about as not racist as a white person can get. Again, she was speaking to the effect on the economy.

VixensVengeance wrote: And then comes your reply, which backs up her statements. Another racially motivated statement. Maybe young white females just having gone through puberty would do it. Oh that's not a stereotypical comment at all, right?

You keep using the word "stereotypical" but as someone who has been thoroughly stereotyped, that's not what it means. I gave you the definition before just to point out what is required to make something stereotypical. Them doing those jobs has NOTHING to do with their race, color, or ethnicity, but rather their illegal status. It is completely understandable that they would take whatever job they had to in order to survive. Therefore, what I'm backing up is that no one else really wants these jobs. Illegal immigrants are taking them because they want them. They can't get many other jobs because an employer isn't going to take that risk. For what? Someone who can barely speak English(again... ILLEGAL immigrants, not Hispanics)? What other jobs would YOU recommend? Every job I apply to now comes with background checks, credit checks, etc. The jobs we're talking about don't have those because they don't care. Why? Because they're desperate. Most people don't want those jobs; especially not at what they're paying.

Supply and Demand.

VixensVengeance wrote: And yet they so successfully succeeded in insulting others! Accidental or not what is the difference. If I accidentally used a pejorative to describe your person would you be less offended just because it was an accident? Now don't get me wrong, I am not a language cop, I think people should speak their minds and have whatever opinions they deem worthy no matter whether they are totally off their rocker or not. The thing that pisses me off is to take some radically extreme leftist like this intolerant character you posted and try to use her as a voice of reason. Its just not working my friend.

Yeah... taking offense and someone trying to offend are two different things though. You're assuming that she's not fighting for these people you think she was offending. What evidence do you have that they don't understand EXACTLY what she's saying and that they don't like it or agree?? Because that wouldn't make sense, right? For you to be offended on someone's behalf who isn't offended at all. And you're assuming she's intolerant when in fact she is intolerant because she defined it as something NOT TO BE... She said minorities shouldn't have to be tolerated. Because that just means you don't like them but you "let" them exist. No one should have to be merely "tolerated". Her attitude is different because she put herself through her own exercise and was treated badly because she had blue eyes. So again... context matters. For a lot of people tolerance is the goal. But do you understand what tolerance is? Do you understand that it is a low bar? Her goal isn't tolerance. She called race a MYTH that we keep telling ourselves. We are one people. That's what she's saying here. So she gets offended by people being treated differently. You can hear it in her voice. ...well... I can at least.

Please try this....

Because I wonder if your mind wasn't searching for some fault... I could be wrong. But I wonder what would happen if you unconvinced yourself that she's a racist (even though she said all whites are basically inherently racist) and watched the whole thing again from part 1. And just listen. Don't react. Just listen to everything she says. I'm not saying you didn't before and I'm not saying your reaction isn't natural. But we heard it two different ways so maybe... maybe even her saying all whites are racist is about when your brain switched modes and felt like attacking her. And unfortunately for her, that's normal. She gets racist hate mail all the time, especially under Trump. Why? Because she's an ANTI-racism activist and causes people to confront these issues in a way in which they feel bad and people don't like that. And she's raw and unapologetic. If she meant what you thought she was implying about immigrants... she would have said it. And to you, even I'M sounding racist (I guess), and that amazes me, so again.. can we double check, intellectually, our perspective? Please? Maybe we're both missing something.

ZealotX wrote: It's not stereotyping any more than saying most of the black people in my home city live on the west side. Is that stereotyping?

No that is a fact. But saying that only Mexicans pick avocados and if they go away there will be no one to do that job is stereotyping and racist. I'm sure she does not see it that way but she is an old woman and from a different time and era. And those that follow her seem to ignore her racist comments because she is always screaming them and is quite bold. The fact that she is doing something others agree with gives them mind to just ignore the incredibly bad comments she also makes.

ZealotX wrote: Illegal immigrants do not have the same opportunities as immigrants with H1B visas. They simply don't.

I almost quit reading your entire response right here. However out of the respect I have for you I did not. BUT THIS IS ONE OF MY VERY POINTS! Illegal immigrants SHOULD NOT have the same opportunities that legal immigrants have!!! How could this not be more obvious??? They are criminals and they need to be treated like criminals, not given a job!!

ZealotX wrote: The reason Kelly said something about Trump's toilets, and I wish I had thought to say this sooner, wasn't that all minorities clean toilets but rather that Trump has been known for hiring illegals to do these types of jobs and that is what the last lady was saying before the clip ended.

Hiring known criminals is also a crime. If trump did this he was in the wrong. Besides that I dont think that is what she meant. She meant that Mexicans clean toilets and that is all they are good for. Does it anger you that I insist that is what she meant even though I cant really know her intent with any clarity because I'm not in her mind? I hope it does, so now you know how I feel when Elliot spouts off her rhetoric that all whites are racist or that Mexicans pick avocados. Its infuriating and I dont care if she is an educator, made a famous experiment or was born on the moon. She is still spouting racist speech, just in the opposite direction.

ZealotX wrote: No, you're confusing ignorance with experience and statistics. So the white guy... is the ONLY guy I ever see doing the cleaning. If he was an employee you'd think at some point you'd see someone else; especially if he goes on vacation, takes sick days, etc. Because he's by himself and isn't a younger guy, its a safe assumption having knowledge of other white people who have talked to me about doing a similar business. As an owner you're going to be making more than an employee which makes cleaning a more attractive proposition.

Is that really a "safe" assumption? Just like its a "safe" assumption that deporting illegal Mexicans will destroy the avocado crops in California? Is it a safe assumption on my part to conclude that my having knowledge of other black people who have talked to me about not graduating high school that blacks are just "generally" not able to pass courses at that level? Its a stupid assumption, right?

And this idea that small business owners make more money than their employees? Have you ever owned your own business before? Do you know how much is invested and how much is expected to be lost each year of a startup or how many of those businesses fail every year because the owners lost all that money.

ZealotX wrote: I wonder what would happen if you unconvinced yourself that she's a racist (even though she said all whites are basically inherently racist) and watched the whole thing again from part 1. And just listen. Don't react. Just listen to everything she says. I'm not saying you didn't before and I'm not saying your reaction isn't natural. But we heard it two different ways so maybe... maybe even her saying all whites are racist is about when your brain switched modes and felt like attacking her. And unfortunately for her, that's normal. She gets racist hate mail all the time, especially under Trump. Why? Because she's an ANTI-racism activist and causes people to confront these issues in a way in which they feel bad and people don't like that. And she's raw and unapologetic. If she meant what you thought she was implying about immigrants... she would have said it. And to you, even I'M sounding racist (I guess), and that amazes me, so again.. can we double check, intellectually, our perspective? Please? Maybe we're both missing something.

Ok well lets do that. How could I unconvinced myself that she is racist?

OK, the rants have abounded here to be sure. And in actuality most of what I said is just me trying to get some examples across the bow of your ship to get you to maybe pay attention. I dont know this woman and because of that I would be remiss to just make a global claim about her in any fashion. I will say that I believe this interview she did was more damaging to the minority cause than it was helpful. This is because she puts no action behind her words. All she is doing is ranting but providing no solutions and all that ranting is doing is polarizing others and creating extremist sides. People like me, who didn't even know her and had no opinion about her, but had a moderate view of the issues with racism in this country, are now polarized to the right in opposition to her extremely radical positions simply because she called me racist. Does that really do any good?

Not in my opinion. As we discussed in PM earlier, we don't need any more town criers for these ideas. We need those willing to act, willing to stand up, willing to do the work and fight the battles that need fought. I understand she is an educator and a diversity training whatchamacallit. But not once did she try to educate anyone in that interview. Not once did she invite people to her training. Not once did she provide any resources, or videos or suggestions on how to better the issue she sees. She was just a billowy windbag full of hot air like anyone else that complains but does nothing to fix it.

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: Zelotx, I’ve cleaned toilets, I’ve made crazy good money in film, I’ve worked fast food,, I’ve landscaped, done demolition, worked commission, coordinated weddings, funerals, been a sales manager, decorated cakes, arranged flowers, marketed, made logos and magazine covers... and handled guns. I don’t look down on people for their jobs.

That's great. You have a very impressive resume as far as life experiences. But the point was that there are jobs that the vast majority of people simply do not want/would rather not have. And employers have a rough time finding people willing to do those jobs for low wages. They give these jobs to illegal immigrants to use them and take advantage of their illegal status. We all do what we have to do in order to survive but I'm guessing that cleaning toilets was not your favorite job from that list. Yes, there would be citizens that would do these jobs if they had to but they usually don't; not enough to fill all the jobs currently being given to illegal immigrants.

ZealotX wrote:

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: Zelotx, I’ve cleaned toilets, I’ve made crazy good money in film, I’ve worked fast food,, I’ve landscaped, done demolition, worked commission, coordinated weddings, funerals, been a sales manager, decorated cakes, arranged flowers, marketed, made logos and magazine covers... and handled guns. I don’t look down on people for their jobs.

That's great. You have a very impressive resume as far as life experiences. But the point was that there are jobs that the vast majority of people simply do not want/would rather not have. And employers have a rough time finding people willing to do those jobs for low wages. They give these jobs to illegal immigrants to use them and take advantage of their illegal status. We all do what we have to do in order to survive but I'm guessing that cleaning toilets was not your favorite job from that list. Yes, there would be citizens that would do these jobs if they had to but they usually don't; not enough to fill all the jobs currently being given to illegal immigrants.

It wasn’t the worst job either...

VixensVengeance wrote: No that is a fact. But saying that only Mexicans pick avocados and if they go away there will be no one to do that job is stereotyping and racist. I'm sure she does not see it that way but she is an old woman and from a different time and era. And those that follow her seem to ignore her racist comments because she is always screaming them and is quite bold. The fact that she is doing something others agree with gives them mind to just ignore the incredibly bad comments she also makes.

I swear on all that is holy and sacred that she did not say only Mexican pick avocados. She didn't even say there would be no one to do that if they left. Again she was talking about ECONOMICS which means that companies wouldn't necessarily get replacement workers at the same PAY RATE which would increase the cost of avocados. That's what she's talking about; the economics of it. She didn't say there would be no more avocados at all lol. That would be ridiculous. It's the cost that concerns us just like it was the economics behind slavery that led to the civil war; not the idea that if blacks didn't pick cotton no one else would. It's about the MONEY!

ZealotX wrote: Illegal immigrants do not have the same opportunities as immigrants with H1B visas. They simply don't.

VixensVengeance wrote: I almost quit reading your entire response right here. However out of the respect I have for you I did not. BUT THIS IS ONE OF MY VERY POINTS! Illegal immigrants SHOULD NOT have the same opportunities that legal immigrants have!!! How could this not be more obvious??? They are criminals and they need to be treated like criminals, not given a job!!

See... You're saying that like we're disagreeing on this point. I never said illegal immigrants should have the same rights. But they're not being given "Regular jobs". They're being exploited. Because they're illegal they're being paid way less than the legal minimum wage. These wages are far below what citizens or legal residents would typically work for; hence... "jobs no one else wants to do". Saying that isn't the same as saying "no one else will pick avocados" but rather "no one else wants to pick avocados at $5/hr." It might even be lower than that. I don't know. I think you get the point though. The economic impact is similar to what Walmart is doing with cheap foreign labor. We all benefit from it in reduced costs. If you increase the cost of produce that has huge implications. The US already subsidizes farmers because it understands the economic ramifications. These employers are certainly at fault but that there is an economic benefit is undeniable. Trump shouldn't even deny it because he's hired a lot of them himself. They also pay taxes. So its a bit more complicated than them simply being criminals to me.

ZealotX wrote: The reason Kelly said something about Trump's toilets, and I wish I had thought to say this sooner, wasn't that all minorities clean toilets but rather that Trump has been known for hiring illegals to do these types of jobs and that is what the last lady was saying before the clip ended.

VixensVengeance wrote: Hiring known criminals is also a crime. If trump did this he was in the wrong. Besides that I dont think that is what she meant. She meant that Mexicans clean toilets and that is all they are good for. Does it anger you that I insist that is what she meant even though I cant really know her intent with any clarity because I'm not in her mind? I hope it does, so now you know how I feel when Elliot spouts off her rhetoric that all whites are racist or that Mexicans pick avocados. Its infuriating and I dont care if she is an educator, made a famous experiment or was born on the moon. She is still spouting racist speech, just in the opposite direction.

It's not if Trump did this. We know he did. And that IS what she meant because we already know he does this because there have been reports in the media about it. All of this guys's business practices are now pretty much known. So yes, he talks one way to his base and he's never going to talk too much about where his own products are made, how many jobs he's shipped over seas or how many illegals he hires. This is a guy that basically admitted to paying as little taxes as possible. Reports show he's cheated on his taxes too. This is a man who is going to save money whether its legal or not and that started with his father, Fred. People on the left know all about this man and his business practices. And so it may sound like inside jokes but when she said that I instantly knew what she was talking about because we're both reacting to the same information. So that is 100% why she said that and what she was talking about; because Donald Trump hires illegals to staff his properties.

Now that I have a good idea what your thought process was, I can understand how you thought that's what they both meant. But I'm telling you, in all sincerity, that because I am I guess you'd call a liberal progressive or whatever, I understand more of what they're saying because we speak the same liberal dialect if that's what you want to call it. There are things Trump says and does that we're reacting to that his supporters are not and usually ignore. So when you hear our reactions it may not sound right or you may not understand what we're saying or why. But if you ask me I will always explain it for you as best I can. Because at the end of the day its all about understanding. We can disagree. But we should always try to understand each other.

VixensVengeance wrote: Is that really a "safe" assumption? Just like its a "safe" assumption that deporting illegal Mexicans will destroy the avocado crops in California? Is it a safe assumption on my part to conclude that my having knowledge of other black people who have talked to me about not graduating high school that blacks are just "generally" not able to pass courses at that level? Its a stupid assumption, right?

lol, again... that's not what she meant. It's not that no one would pick avocados. No one would work at the same PAY. That's the difference and distinction.

VixensVengeance wrote: And this idea that small business owners make more money than their employees? Have you ever owned your own business before? Do you know how much is invested and how much is expected to be lost each year of a startup or how many of those businesses fail every year because the owners lost all that money.

Yes, I have. It's risky. But the reason people take that risk is because the pay off is typically more than being an employee of the same business. If employers didn't make a margin over what their employees earn well there would be no reason to hire anyone because you would make no profit. In order to make a profit a company has to earn more than its employees. Right? Now if you're a business owner, you have overhead an assets and credit. You have to market and advertise and all that. But businesses are able to pay for all these things because they don't charge minimum wage for cleaning. They may pay an employee that, but that's not how much they're charging a business or homeowner to do the work.

VixensVengeance wrote: Ok well lets do that. How could I unconvinced myself that she is racist?

OK, the rants have abounded here to be sure. And in actuality most of what I said is just me trying to get some examples across the bow of your ship to get you to maybe pay attention. I dont know this woman and because of that I would be remiss to just make a global claim about her in any fashion. I will say that I believe this interview she did was more damaging to the minority cause than it was helpful. This is because she puts no action behind her words. All she is doing is ranting but providing no solutions and all that ranting is doing is polarizing others and creating extremist sides. People like me, who didn't even know her and had no opinion about her, but had a moderate view of the issues with racism in this country, are now polarized to the right in opposition to her extremely radical positions simply because she called me racist. Does that really do any good?

Jane's work is out there. There are videos. She has a website. The interview was not for that purpose. She was answering the interviewers questions. The interviewer was already familiar with her work. So was I. I'm not new to Jane Elliott. I know her through her work and this is not the first videos I've seen her in. She does more doing than talking. But everyone's not a smooth talking politician. Like I said before, she's raw. She tells it like it is. She's done more to combat racism than I'll do in 10 lifetimes, I'm sure. She's influenced hearts and minds by showing them how it feels to be the "other". That's what her Blue eyes brown eyes exercise was about. She tackled in a way that very few people ever have and identified deeper issues, psychology, that underpins the whole notion of race and racism. Research her. That's how you will "unconvince" yourself that she's a racist. But you have to understand where she's coming from and not take her in sound bytes.

Get know Jane

https://youtu.be/fF9s0as_d_4

In our home we use the word “blind hate.” Truthfully - racism - mine - personally - WAS taught to me. It no longer lives in the life of me or my family. Blind hate sucks.Blind hate hurts. Racism is a hard cup to serve for the masses and an even harder pill to swallow for ourselves. My sister ( wife’s sister) generation ( is not even picking up the words we once used. I never will and will never teach em to any one. To combat hate ... you gotta ... have a game plan. It’s cool and fun to notice it but ... what then ? What do you do when you notice it? What’s your game plan ?

is that really you CM3

ZealotX, I would be willing to pay more for avocados if it meant we were actually enforcing our immigration laws and giving only legal residents those jobs to pick avocados even at higher wages. Is picking avocados or farming not a “regular job”? If it’s not a regular job then what kind of job is it? I didn’t know we had categories I guess…

However, even if its not a regular job, if you’re a young black man in the Ghetto and, as you have suggested in the past, can’t get a “regular job” then maybe if we got rid of the illegal immigrants the young black man could get one of these “special jobs?” picking avocados at a higher wage and then they would not have to sell drugs, right? I would support and even encourage such an endeavor to help lift those in poverty out of their plight. Hell of a lot better than increasing my taxes to be put to wellfare. Someday they might be able to own their own avocado ranch this way and as for the illegal immigrant’s status, it really is as simple as them being criminals and taking jobs from legal Americans whether they are regular or special jobs.

So would you support such an endeavor as I describe above?

As for all the Trump rhetoric I truly don’t see the point. Do you actually think he personally hired the guy that cleans his toilet? Also don’t you also try to pay as little in taxes as possible? I know I do! So how is he wrong for doing that when you or I are not?

It’s also not necessarily a fact that business owners have to make more than their employees in order to be in business. Have you ever watched Gordan Ramses Kitchen Nightmares? LOL just one example but those owners are typically in a staggering amount of debt! I mean up to a million dollars and still paying their employees out of borrowed money for years on end. The percentage of businesses that actually make a fair profit is few and far between. And yes you are right the risk is great and the work incredibly hard for an owner. Much harder than an employees and the reward for that is meager to the extreme most times for the owner as well.

When it comes to people, first impressions are everything and Jane made a very bad first impression on me through that interview. After watching that interview I don’t care to research her any further. I think I have a pretty good idea of who she is and what she is about. That is my point. Your choice of videos to further your cause is very poor. However, I will watch your latest posted video in an effort to better understand her positions. I shall follow up later as it seems to be an hour long and I don’t have time right now.

VixensVengeance wrote: ZealotX, I would be willing to pay more for avocados if it meant we were actually enforcing our immigration laws and giving only legal residents those jobs to pick avocados even at higher wages. Is picking avocados or farming not a “regular job”? If it’s not a regular job then what kind of job is it? I didn’t know we had categories I guess…

However, even if its not a regular job, if you’re a young black man in the Ghetto and, as you have suggested in the past, can’t get a “regular job” then maybe if we got rid of the illegal immigrants the young black man could get one of these “special jobs?” picking avocados at a higher wage and then they would not have to sell drugs, right? I would support and even encourage such an endeavor to help lift those in poverty out of their plight. Hell of a lot better than increasing my taxes to be put to wellfare. Someday they might be able to own their own avocado ranch this way and as for the illegal immigrant’s status, it really is as simple as them being criminals and taking jobs from legal Americans whether they are regular or special jobs.

So would you support such an endeavor as I describe above?

As for all the Trump rhetoric I truly don’t see the point. Do you actually think he personally hired the guy that cleans his toilet? Also don’t you also try to pay as little in taxes as possible? I know I do! So how is he wrong for doing that when you or I are not?

It’s also not necessarily a fact that business owners have to make more than their employees in order to be in business. Have you ever watched Gordan Ramses Kitchen Nightmares? LOL just one example but those owners are typically in a staggering amount of debt! I mean up to a million dollars and still paying their employees out of borrowed money for years on end. The percentage of businesses that actually make a fair profit is few and far between. And yes you are right the risk is great and the work incredibly hard for an owner. Much harder than an employees and the reward for that is meager to the extreme most times for the owner as well.

When it comes to people, first impressions are everything and Jane made a very bad first impression on me through that interview. After watching that interview I don’t care to research her any further. I think I have a pretty good idea of who she is and what she is about. That is my point. Your choice of videos to further your cause is very poor. However, I will watch your latest posted video in an effort to better understand her positions. I shall follow up later as it seems to be an hour long and I don’t have time right now.