Debating the existence of toxic masculinity/femininity

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22 Jan 2019 18:34 - 22 Jan 2019 18:40 #332839 by OB1Shinobi
Hopefully i got it all but i will amend if necessary

Connor L. wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: In the first place toxic masculinity is not real


This is such a prevalent issue in our culture that I can't breeze by this without feeling the responsibility to ask you why you would make this kind of assertion. I have three questions: What is toxic masculinity to you? What is toxic masculinity to society? And, why do you think they don't exist?



Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: These sorts of claims are no different than assertions that male privilege exists. There is just no evidence to support them. If you believe in toxic masculinity do you also believe toxic femininity?


Arisaig wrote: For anything, there is a toxic version of it. Toxic Christianity, Toxic World of Warcraft Players, Toxic Car Drivers.

Its not a problem to be part of that group. The problem comes in taking the worst aspects of it and ramping it up to 12.

So yes. There is toxic masculinity and there is of course toxic femininity.



Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Sorry but you are wrong. To emphasize group identity over individuality in a disparaging way is invalid because it causes cognitive bias.


Arisaig wrote:
Never said anything about group identity, and in fact am pointing out individual decision. Read the entire post.


Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:
So can a female be guilty of toxic masculinity?



Go!

People are complicated.
Last edit: 22 Jan 2019 18:40 by OB1Shinobi.

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22 Jan 2019 19:05 #332846 by

Arisaig wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: So yes. There is toxic masculinity and there is of course toxic femininity.[/color]


Sorry but you are wrong. To emphasize group identity over individuality in a disparaging way is invalid because it causes cognitive bias.


Never said anything about group identity, and in fact am pointing out individual decision. Read the entire post.


So can a female be guilty of toxic masculinity?

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22 Jan 2019 19:26 #332848 by RosalynJ
Yes. Its possible for anyone to hold and spread unrealistic ideals about indivifuals who hold certain labels

Pax Per Ministerium
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22 Jan 2019 19:54 #332849 by

Rosalyn J wrote: Yes. Its possible for anyone to hold and spread unrealistic ideals about indivifuals who hold certain labels


If that is the case then the term toxic masculinity is an incorrect label because it unfairly defines the actions of a group dynamic, that being males, over other groups. It needs to be called something else and defined as individual action not assigned a group.

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22 Jan 2019 20:13 #332850 by JamesSand
"being a !*&^" already has a label, and specific !&*^ acts are managed by particular laws and enforcement agencies in various parts of the world.


The twittersphere and tumblords and commercial "journalism" which isn't much better should probably all just go chill out and stop trying to be the World Police.

If you have a problem with the definition of particular deeds or the management of law enforcement in your area, take it up with your own local government agencies.
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22 Jan 2019 20:22 #332851 by OB1Shinobi

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Rosalyn J wrote: Yes. Its possible for anyone to hold and spread unrealistic ideals about indivifuals who hold certain labels


If that is the case then the term toxic masculinity is an incorrect label because it unfairly defines the actions of a group dynamic, that being males, over other groups. It needs to be called something else and defined as individual action not assigned a group.



I tend to agree with this but would be willing to concede the point if the feminine equivalent were openly acknowledged. What about females who bully each other with gossip and rumors or all these women teachers having sex with their underage students? Is that toxicity specific to female nature or are they merely examples of the ways in which females act out the “toxicity” of human nature?

People are complicated.
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22 Jan 2019 20:27 #332853 by JamesSand
I'm all about language evolution, but I'm still fighting against this emergence of using "toxic" to just blanket describe more or less "anything I disagree with or that is inconvenient to me"

"Urgh, Steve never washes his coffee mug in the tea room. He's such a toxic influence"



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOZuxwVk7TU
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22 Jan 2019 20:46 - 22 Jan 2019 20:46 #332854 by OB1Shinobi

JamesSand wrote: I'm all about language evolution, but I'm still fighting against this emergence of using "toxic" to just blanket describe more or less "anything I disagree with or that is inconvenient to me"

"Urgh, Steve never washes his coffee mug in the tea room. He's such a toxic influence"




I agree 100% and also tried for awhile lol but i think its too late. As Pandora learned, nothing ever goes back into the box.

People are complicated.
Last edit: 22 Jan 2019 20:46 by OB1Shinobi.
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22 Jan 2019 21:05 #332855 by OB1Shinobi
Heres an article about toxic femininity that i hated to read but which i think is pretty important for understanding the nature of “the movement”. Some of the “SJW” types hanging around will probably love it.


Warning: Spoiler!


https://medium.com/@CleoJ/yes-there-is-a-toxic-femininity-9f9afaef0587

People are complicated.
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22 Jan 2019 21:06 #332856 by

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Rosalyn J wrote: Yes. Its possible for anyone to hold and spread unrealistic ideals about indivifuals who hold certain labels


If that is the case then the term toxic masculinity is an incorrect label because it unfairly defines the actions of a group dynamic, that being males, over other groups. It needs to be called something else and defined as individual action not assigned a group.



I tend to agree with this but would be willing to concede the point if the feminine equivalent were openly acknowledged. What about females who bully each other with gossip and rumors or all these women teachers having sex with their underage students? Is that toxicity specific to female nature or are they merely examples of the ways in which females act out the “toxicity” of human nature?


I dont want to acknowledge the female equivalent either though. You are right girls can viscous to one another and to others but I will not blanket label a behaviour across the entire gender. That's what makes these terms so dangerous. It turns seemingly individual bad behaviour and poor decision into a crusade to hunt the witches and burn them!!

SJW flying the flag of righteous justice against a a group dynamic enemy they perceive have dissed them in some way is nothing more than protective dissonance. It gives them the excuse to blame others for bad behaviour while engaging in that same bad behaviour. Bad things happen to good people all the time and people do bad things but instead of being the victim and blaming an entire gender for your hurts they need to take some self responsibility place blame where it deserves to be, on the individual.

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22 Jan 2019 22:09 #332858 by OB1Shinobi
Well Im going to play devils advocate here, for a moment. Wouldnt you agree that situations such as the Hervey Weinstein scandal and how the military handles cases of sexual assault lend support to the idea of "rape culture", one of the central themes of "toxic masculinity"?

People are complicated.
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22 Jan 2019 22:09 #332859 by
I will leave it to those much smarter than me to prove the existence of a very real condition.

"Terry Kupers defines toxic masculinity as "the constellation of socially regressive male traits that serve to foster domination, the devaluation of women, homophobia and wanton violence". According to Kupers, toxic masculinity serves to outline aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive, "such as misogyny, homophobia, greed, and violent domination". These traits are contrasted with more positive aspects of hegemonic masculinity such as "pride in [one's] ability to win at sports, to maintain solidarity with a friend, to succeed at work, or to provide for [one's] family".

Toxic masculine norms are a feature of life for men in American prisons, where they are reflected in the behaviour of both staff and inmates. The qualities of extreme self-reliance, domination of other men through violence, and avoiding the appearance of either femininity or weakness, comprise an unspoken code among prisoners. Suppressing vulnerable emotions is often adopted in order to successfully cope with the harsh conditions of prison life, defined by punishment, social isolation, and aggression. These factors likely play a role in suicide among male prisoners.

Bullying of boys by their peers and domestic violence experienced by boys at home can also be expressions of toxic masculinity. The often violent socialization of boys produces psychological trauma through the promotion of aggression and lack of intimate relations with others. Such trauma is often disregarded, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" with regard to bullying." from the wiki article linked below

Kupers, Terry A. (June 2005). "Toxic masculinity as a barrier to mental health treatment in prison". Journal of Clinical Psychology. Wiley. 61 (6): 713–724. HYPERLINK: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jclp.20105

Check out the other relevant references: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic_masculinity#Toxic_masculinity

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22 Jan 2019 22:22 #332862 by

Connor L. wrote: I will leave it to those much smarter than me to prove the existence of a very real condition.


You go right ahead and keep falling back on those "smarter than you" and I shall continue dismissing your irrelevant comments as propaganda and hearsay.

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22 Jan 2019 22:27 - 22 Jan 2019 22:31 #332863 by

OB1Shinobi wrote: Well Im going to play devils advocate here, for a moment. Wouldnt you agree that situations such as the Hervey Weinstein scandal and how the military handles cases of sexual assault lend support to the idea of "rape culture", one of the central themes of "toxic masculinity"?



Harvey is one man, so is the accused in the post you cited. How does that constitute a culture? If Im not mistaken both those men have been or are being punished. I cant speak to the individual details of either case beyond what a liberal media will skew to their own devices anyway. Its this idea of culture that almost got kavinaugh a kangaroo court conviction. I still believe in innocent until proven guilty though so he is right were he deserves to be.


Does violence and oppression and rape happen? Of course it does. But to blame a gender on all of this is just ridiculous, short sided and stupid. I can speak to my own time in the military and I can tell you the females I worked with were all treated with nothing but honor and respect. Its not a culture because when it does happen there is no pervasive rule or laws to dismiss it or condone it. I have seen a few examples of abuse and they were all dealt with very harshly in my time in so I do not buy the idea of a culture. Hell the catholic church is closer to a rape culture than the military and that is male on male violence.

Women can also be just as responsible for the devaluation of other women as well.
Last edit: 22 Jan 2019 22:31 by .

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22 Jan 2019 22:31 #332864 by JamesSand

how the military handles cases of sexual assault


You mean by hanging the male party out to dry, prompting for conviction regardless of the lack of strength of the evidence, in order to protect their image and appear to have a "strong stance"?

we might be talking about different cases.....

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22 Jan 2019 23:07 - 23 Jan 2019 00:09 #332868 by OB1Shinobi

"Terry Kupers defines toxic masculinity as "the constellation of socially regressive male traits that serve to foster domination, the devaluation of women, homophobia and wanton violence".



Kupers seems to enjoy using scientific sounding words but does he offer anything remotely close to scientific defense of his conclusions that these traits are actually male-specific? Do females not engage in power struggles, homophobia, or violence? What precisely IS "wanton violence" and what measurements does he use to distinguish male vs female engagement in it or support of it?


According to Kupers, toxic masculinity serves to outline aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive,



"Socially Destructive" is a label he uses (im betting) without actually qualifying. Give me a precise definition of "socially destructive" and, dollars to doughnuts, unless you include the word "male" into definition itself, the term will also be applicable to behaviors within female populations, including those behaviors meant to assert personal superiority and to impose some form of social hegemony.

And I would add that it is highly debatable the degree to which imposing hegemony is "socially destructive". In many cases it could equally be argued to be "socially corrective". Culture is based on shared experience, so some degree of hegemony is necessary or else the culture fragments irreparably.


Toxic masculine norms are a feature of life for men in American prisons, where they are reflected in the behaviour of both staff and inmates.



Prison is a very different world. Prison culture is not relevant for drawing conclusions about free world culture.
But again, does he actually make an in depth investigation of life in women's prisons in order to compare?


Bullying of boys by their peers and domestic violence experienced by boys at home can also be expressions of toxic masculinity.



Except that girls also bully other girls and women also abuse their partners and their children, suggesting that bullying and abuse are not gender specific.


The often violent socialization of boys produces psychological trauma through the promotion of aggression and lack of intimate relations with others.



Again, neither the experience of being traumatized nor the tendency to cause some kind of psychological trauma can actually be demonstrated as gender specific.


Such trauma is often disregarded, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" with regard to bullying.



I swear to Christ the only people ive ever heard say this (in a non-ironic way) were SJW types trying to sell me on "toxic masculinity"

People are complicated.
Last edit: 23 Jan 2019 00:09 by OB1Shinobi.
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22 Jan 2019 23:16 #332869 by

OB1Shinobi wrote: I swear to Christ the only people ive ever heard say this (in a non-ironic way) were SJW types trying to sell me on "toxic masculinity"



I commend you. You have much more patience in taking the time to address this propaganda than I do. Maybe its my time of the month! :evil:

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22 Jan 2019 23:19 - 22 Jan 2019 23:22 #332870 by OB1Shinobi

Harvey is one man, so is the accused in the post you cited. How does that constitute a culture?



The argument is that it constitutes a culture because it was extremely pervasive to the film industry, that he was likely only the most well known case but hardly the only case, that it went on for decades, and that everyone knew about it and accepted it without challenge.

I can speak to my own time in the military and I can tell you the females I worked with were all treated with nothing but honor and respect. I have seen a few examples of abuse and they were all dealt with very harshly in my time in so I do not buy the idea of a culture.


Thats actually really awesome to hear/read.

Hell the catholic church is closer to a rape culture than the military and that is male on male violence.




Even better. Catholic Church proves the validity of the concept of a male dominated, rape culture.

Its not a culture because when it does happen there is no pervasive rule or laws to dismiss it or condone it.



Now thats getting into tricky territory. A culture has formal, explicit laws but also informal, implicit cultural norms. The idea of "rape culture" is that there is an implicit cultural norm of allowing men to sexually abuse and exploit women, even if there are formal laws against the behavior.

Women can also be just as responsible for the devaluation of other women as well.


Yea i agree. Like i said, im just playing devil advocate lol

People are complicated.
Last edit: 22 Jan 2019 23:22 by OB1Shinobi.

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22 Jan 2019 23:33 #332871 by OB1Shinobi

JamesSand wrote:

how the military handles cases of sexual assault


You mean by hanging the male party out to dry, prompting for conviction regardless of the lack of strength of the evidence, in order to protect their image and appear to have a "strong stance"?

we might be talking about different cases.....



I know that for quite a few years it was reported that the US military (all branches) had a tendendy to silence women who alleged sexual assault. Not that the media is actually trustworthy (much less, these days) but it seemed as good, or externally verifiable an example as any.

People are complicated.
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22 Jan 2019 23:43 #332872 by rugadd
It really just boils down to people being inconsiderate, selfish, or unnecessarily violent. I don't think genders even really exist outside of people believing they do. But then again, en aweful lot has been done just because someone believed it...

One may be right, but that won't stop them from getting lynched by the people who are wrong.

rugadd
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