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Consistancy

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12 Jun 2018 13:55 #322816 by RosalynJ
Consistancy was created by RosalynJ
I'd like to add something to the Behavior Unbecoming concerning consequences for breaking those and the rest of our guidelines. I'd like your input

Pax Per Ministerium
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12 Jun 2018 14:28 #322817 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic Consistancy
Such as ?

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Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova

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12 Jun 2018 14:50 #322819 by RosalynJ
Replied by RosalynJ on topic Consistancy
Suggestion
First infraction, written warning
Second infraction, written warning and a dialogue with either a Knight or Clergy
Third infraction, written warning and a thread is set up with a Screenshot in the admin/mod forum. Further discussion with Knight/Clergy to be added to said thread
Fourth infraction three day suspension with a written agreement for how to address behavior
Fifth infraction is one week suspension with a plan to address behavior upon return. Dialogue with Knight/Clergy
Sixth infraction one month suspension with a plan to address behavior. Dialogue with Knight/Clergy
Any further infraction would result in 6 month ban and a required plan. Further dialogue required.

The most important thing I think is that in six months the person can start over at the beginning of the consequence ladder

Pax Per Ministerium
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12 Jun 2018 14:53 #322821 by
Replied by on topic Consistancy
Consequences is definitely something this temple lacks. Both on public forum and in Private abuse (PM Bullying). But also in timing. It tends to be allowed to drag out and drag out and drag out.....until someone finally gets fed up enough to take more drastic measures then what would have been more accommodating and LESS drastic if handled earlier on.

If I were to suggest anything It would be a point system to help mitigate proper timing that both the administration AND The membership knows.

I realize that is vauge and not a solid idea, I don't know enough about the admin end to make it solid. But from my own personal experience in the abuse this temple is capable of dishing out....That is what came to my mind. A.....three strikes your out kind of thing?

I am willing to bat around the idea mouse if folks wish to expand on this. :)

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12 Jun 2018 15:02 #322823 by Brick
Replied by Brick on topic Consistancy
I think that sounds like a good idea Rosa. It's clear and concise and pretty darn straight forward too :).

As a side note, in you're final post in the other thread, you mentioned pronoun usage. I appreciate this may just fall under basic respect, but is there maybe a better way of policing it? I think that sort of thing is a perfect example of Trisskar's comment about things dragging on and on forever

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12 Jun 2018 15:06 - 12 Jun 2018 15:13 #322825 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Consistancy
So "the community" isnt allowed to discuss the way that the rules are enforced?
The way you lock threads all the time is incredibly irritating but i havent said anything because they werent my topics. Ive been waiting for you to lock this because i had the feeeling it was just a matter of time. If you want to lock your own threads so that no one can reply to what you say then fine but i dont need you to decide for me what is appropriate for me to talk about. I want you to unlock my thread and id like you to stop being so damn presumptuous and controlling about other peoples conversations. Or at least just mine; if others need you to think for them then thats their business.

People are complicated.
Last edit: 12 Jun 2018 15:13 by OB1Shinobi.
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12 Jun 2018 15:28 #322827 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic Consistency
“I'd like to add something to the Behavior Unbecoming concerning consequences for breaking those and the rest of our guidelines. I'd like your input”

So "the community" isnt allowed to discuss the way that the rules are enforced?


This is the reason for this thread I believe.

I’m not a fan of locking threads myself. I’ve locked threads only due to the fact that it was informative and not discussion-al- if that’s even a real word. Lol
Maybe—- have a guideline posted for the reasons a thread can be locked and by who? Accountability thing n such ? A copy of what’s moderated is in council but can we do one maybe for general population to view not comemt - just see- maybe ? Accountability and transparency maybe - just suggestions - a avenue to ask to unlock the thread by OP request? any how -
I like the three strikes idea.
A point value sounds like a good start . At some points value agreed on - have some one evaluated- maybe ?

Part of the hardest thing is to catch - clear catch -individuals doing - things - deemed not healthy for the Temple. In our freedoms we have here - speech and ideas are all welcomed - which means even the negative ones. Light and dark are welcomed as well as opposing opinions. It’s when the basic rules and basic respects are lost that we find it difficult to - not controll but - allow others to enjoy and share with others what we do here. This place is not like any one I’ve ever encountered. So ... a point system maybe? Not three strikes but a agreed value ?

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Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
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12 Jun 2018 15:42 #322828 by
Replied by on topic Consistency
I do have to agree to disagree to the Thread locking (I just read the thread in question) When I brought up that the member in question wasn't here to defend herself in the thread....that was not a call to lock it. Taking a raging bear and putting it in a cage isn't going to solve the problem and it simply increases the rage. In this case....made more people angry then happy.

whats done is done. People should grow up and realize the thread in question isn't a "Bash member x opportunity" and simply a chance to learn and improve on each other. Locking it dosn't solve that

warning people to discuss future improvements on said situation instead of bashing the member themselves is a much better approach. And if said warning is not headed, points and action to specific members should be applied. Perhaps it is a temporary ban from the thread, or the sub forum its posted in.

Or another idea would be a time out sub forum. Just Jedi used to have one....whenever a thread got to hot and disruptive it would be moved to a time out sub forum where certain membership levels are allowed. (Member or Apprentice Up or similar)

Again....just idea mouse batting :) take it or leave it. Just my thoughts

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12 Jun 2018 15:47 - 12 Jun 2018 15:50 #322829 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Consistancy
I like all of those ideas carlos except i suspect that will just result in creating an official justification for Rosalyn (or whoever) to lock whatever they want because they dont like the conversation. Like stop-and-frisk: new york has an officially sanction rationale for doing something lousy. Making it official only creates and even more difficult barrier to redress.

So here is my official request through the official channel: please unlock the thread. It was a civil conversation and it CLEARLY matters to people or else there wouldnt be 12 pages. There was no good reason to lock it. As i said before, ive heen expecting Rosalyn specifically to come along and close the topic and im confident that she has been wanting to since it began. She found a pretext to impose her restrictive standards and jumped on it.

Id also like to ask Rosalyn to just generally stay away from me. Youre a nice and intelligent person and i respect you as an individual but your ideas about what is appropriate to talk about are just childish to me. Is TOTJO a day care center or what? We are not seven-year-olds and we dont need a nanny to protect us from ideas. I dont, anyway.

People are complicated.
Last edit: 12 Jun 2018 15:50 by OB1Shinobi.
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12 Jun 2018 15:53 - 12 Jun 2018 16:05 #322830 by Zenchi
Replied by Zenchi on topic Consistancy
I don't often agree with Obi, but he has a valid point.. .

How ironic you start a thread on "consistency" immediately after locking a thread for little more reason than you were tired of the conversation, in all due politeness, that's a little hypocritical...

If "pronouns" are the problem, make it clear (because you and the council have not publicly done so) that certain individuals want to be addressed by certain pronouns. Problem solved...

It's not rocket science, and most certainly not deserving of having a thread locked without due warning or provocation, imo...

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Passion, yet Serenity
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Last edit: 12 Jun 2018 16:05 by Zenchi. Reason: I'm a Moody lil cuss...
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12 Jun 2018 16:06 #322831 by
Replied by on topic Consistancy
I respectfully and politely ask you to open Obi's thread again , we are not done yet....

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12 Jun 2018 16:25 #322832 by
Replied by on topic Consistancy
Locking aside, lets not loose the plot of this thread - I like where this is going: councillor is asking us as membership for ideas on managing rule infractions.

Your suggestion seems sound Ros, but I agree with Tris here saying there is an issue with timing.

Another aspect is single-sided approaches - someone may get a warning here for saying "Council are terrible they lock all our threads" ... That'd be single sided. But the simultaneous open discussion started about when and how we, as a community, think that thread locking should be used would be fairer.

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12 Jun 2018 16:36 #322836 by Tellahane
Replied by Tellahane on topic Consistancy
Remember that one time when people were jedi...

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12 Jun 2018 16:41 #322837 by Brick
Replied by Brick on topic Consistancy

Tellahane wrote: Remember that one time when people were jedi...




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12 Jun 2018 16:50 #322838 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic Consistancy
Aww John Williams missed his cue...start over.

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Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova

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12 Jun 2018 16:53 #322839 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Consistancy

Twigga wrote: Locking aside, lets not loose the plot of this thread


Its almost like youre suggesting people should be allowed to have the discussions which interest them without others interfering. Very interesting. Imagine if we applied that basic principle to the whole forum and not just this one topic.

People are complicated.
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12 Jun 2018 16:54 #322840 by RosalynJ
Replied by RosalynJ on topic Consistancy
No it was not because I didn't like the thread. It was because a member brought it forward to my attention that it was against the guidelines in behavior unbecoming.

This is the problem. Every. Single. Time.

I don't have a problem with the thread or the conversation. When the thread was brought up in Council I was the one to ask to let it run.

Now I take too long. Now I'm not listening. Now this. Now that. I gave the reason. If someone wants to unlock it fine. As I say, I don't have a problem.

Every time we make a decision its not fair. Sorry. Its not going to be perfect.

Pax Per Ministerium
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12 Jun 2018 17:00 - 12 Jun 2018 17:08 #322841 by Nakis
Replied by Nakis on topic Consistancy
My biggest advice is when punishing someone is to have their name, reason for punishment, punishment, clearly defined start date and end date, additional information about what and can not be done in the punishment, and the proper method of appeals. This should be posted publicly so everyone is aware and probably in the same place. If it's an issue in regards to confidential information, that information would naturally be sealed. The important thing is ensuring people know who, what, when, where, and why. This prevents accusations of strong arming or retaliation by higher ups against others.

I'm going to post the Code of Conduct for Amtgard

Warning: Spoiler!


This allows the leaders of a group to say "Bob is suspended from 6/1/2018 to 9/1/2018 for violation of code 3" without going into too many details.

This is an example of a notice of action that is posted in a public location for Amtgard, the rules for how you appeal is usually sent via PM with the rest of the message:

Warning: Spoiler!

Licensed Clergy Person
Last edit: 12 Jun 2018 17:08 by Nakis.
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12 Jun 2018 19:20 #322847 by
Replied by on topic Consistancy
I like the idea of looking to other organisations for how they handle these issues Nakis, and I also think it solves many problems that can come from having to hunt down a mod to ask for details on what happened with one of your temple buddies. It prevents mods having to reply the same to 30 different enquirers. I approve; but I don't personally believe in retributive (punishment based) justice - I'm a restorative/rehabilitation girl...

Obi, I'm not sure I 100% understood your response; but there was an opportunity in the second paragraph of my response for someone to start this thread . Under the current decisions/guidelines for when we, as a community, can lock threads, your thread fell into that category. Maybe those guidelines aren't the ones we want to be using any more.

I liked your thread. I think lots of people can appreciate your thread. It brought up lots of different ideas about inconsistencies and how we interact in the temple. I think a lot of different threads could be started out of it to clear up inconsistencies, and they will be further reaching, as they won't just be about one incidence focusing on one individual.

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12 Jun 2018 19:37 - 12 Jun 2018 19:39 #322849 by Nakis
Replied by Nakis on topic Consistancy
I wrote specifically about punishment to address community concerns about awareness, time frames, transparency, and appeals. In the spoiler below is my stance on rehabilitation/punishment :laugh:

Warning: Spoiler!

Licensed Clergy Person
Last edit: 12 Jun 2018 19:39 by Nakis.
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