If not now, when? If not us, then who?

I have heard some version of this argument one too many times.

Jaedon Adar-Barnaby wrote: May we all be a comforter to those in mourning as we also may mourn. Right now, people are vulnerable. Lets be strength to those in need. Some would use such a Dark time to advance a political agenda..

I hope so.

I don't accept the premise that there has to be some mandatory waiting period on debate after yet another incident like what happened in Las Vegas (Orlando, San Bernadino, Newtown, pick one). Believe it or not, we can do both. We can comfort those who are in need, and we can demand action to make certain this never happens again.

Our grief is not enough. Our prayers are not enough. There are common sense public policy actions that we could take to reduce the casualty counts, and there are (hopefully) reasoned arguments to be made on all sides of the issue. It's time to make them, or stand aside so that those of us who are beyond ready for the carnage to stop can work toward that goal.

Or, if we have to have some arbitrary waiting period before we can take up the hard work of tackling this problem of gun violence, let's make it definite. What is appropriate? One day? Seven days? I'd like to know, so that I can raise the issue when opponents' tender sensibilities won't be offended, but before the memory has faded enough from public consciousness for the impetus to subside.

I hope it's not a question of body count, like we have to reach some critical mass of casualty before we can take up the issue, but if it is, what's that number? There are almost 600 dead or wounded today, maybe twenty thousand by grace or luck not wounded who are terrorized and traumatized today, millions affected and grieving today. Does that number have to be even higher?

Reasonable minds can differ on what has to be done about the issue of gun violence in the U.S. But the "not today" argument is too easy and far too fallacious to be borne any longer. It dishonors the memory of those who have fallen to use their deaths, and our grief over their deaths, as an excuse to continue to do nothing.

The hardest part to swallow about the "not today" argument for me is that 50+ people will never have a tomorrow to address it. Maybe today was the day they would change the world, but their lives were taken from them yesterday. There is no opportunity to address this later for them, or for their loved ones who will never get them back.

I subscribe to the very now effect and way of life . I can not do much for others and I do not live in the shadows of others effects or un effects. I live by the laws that are passed by the people I voted.
I can clean and decesemble most handbheld guns and rifles ( army perk) but bet u I teach and treat my family with the wisdom and caution to know and respect things as such.


I get a kick out of the sights and signs in yards that say .... please don't get offended not the intention ... pray to stop this or that , yes prayer and good intentions are grand but action is needed for action. My action is I have 3 hearts who have what they need to Handel situations as such. Yes pray but vote and educate and act .... I agree Atticus very much we can do both. I do! U can , u do. Right now is gone ... were u ready?!

I would like to further your point, Atticus.
Lately, I have been trying to focus a lot on the teachings here at the Temple and that one that came to mind is:
"Jedi are aware of the future impacts of action and inaction and of the influence of the past, but live in and focus on the Now"

Inaction at the time of an event such as this latest tragedy can perhaps do even more damage than we might think!
Allowing this to further without radical change immediately will bring detrimental effects on all of us.

I would like to pose a real-life situation that I encountered. Since we are discussing the need for regulation let me put what happened to me and then I would like the opinion of what I tools I should or should not have been able to have to defend against this situation. One day riding the bus home I took the bus one stop too far after dark. This put me in an area of my hometown that you do not go into after dark if you do not live there. I got off the bus and was trying to get myself out of the area and back to the main street asap.

About 30 seconds into this I hear " Snuff that white boy" and turn to see four people approaching me and one pointing me out. Two of the people coming at me had a pipe or stick of some kind in hand. I was being pointed out to be beaten down as part of a gang initiation. All because I went one stop too far

Now I am five foot two. So I am not out running four ( or five if the guy pointing me out joins in ) guys that are close to or over six foot in a short sprint. Pepper spray is not always effective, might not have the volume I need and takes time to kick in. So that tool may or may not work. A taser or other electrical stun weapon is a one-hit deal. A knife is not really a great option here for obvious reasons. So that leaves me with what? A rifle or shotgun is not sensible to carry outside the home. 911 will not be there for a few minutes even if I can dial and give my location while fleeing and hoping I am not chased down. So if I have a small capacity magazine pistol that is 8 rounds or less that is two shots a person IF all of them hit and the fifth guy does not join int. The reality is that I might miss or two shots a person might not stop them all depending on shot placement.

So in your opinion should I just be out of luck? Should I really hope that I dont miss and all my shots are placed to be fight stoppers? Is it likely that merely presenting my firearm will stop them? Sure. In my case it did. But if it had not, if they decided to attack, I want all the ammo that my firearm can hold because I have no interest in being dead or damaged for life after a club to the side of my head. But I want your opinion. What would you feel I should have available? Keep in mind the facts I gave and the fact that a firearm is not a best case situation tool. Its a tool for the worst day of your life and that means we have to look at the worst case potential outcomes.

If I may be so bold, on Thursday next I am attending my local Town Council meeting. I'm done shouting at the rooftops for change.

That's the thing, Mad. We're not discussing the need for regulation. "Not today."

But the funny thing is that today some people assume Senan and I are anti-gun. Because we're talking about it, we must be dialing up the confiscation posse.

Atticus wrote: That's the thing, Mad. We're not discussing the need for regulation. "Not today."

But the funny thing is that today some people assume Senan and I are anti-gun. Because we're talking about it, we must be dialing up the confiscation posse.

You have shown a desire to talk about it. As has Senan. You appear to agree with his ideas that more limits are needed. So I went with what has been put forward and explained how it could kill me. I then ask for your views on what I should or should not have based on that. If you wish to talk about it lets talk. I am asking for your view.

So I went with what has been put forward and explained how it could kill me.

The premise of your story was "I went to a place I knew I was unwelcome"

From the other side of the story - you intruded, armed, into someone else's "domain" where they didn't want armed intruders.


That aside, your life isn't really so important, and escalation really helps no one in the end...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZnOsbD0wUw

That aside, your life isn't really so important,

Perhaps a general pack of respect for life is lacking

That aside, your life isn't really so important,

Perhaps a general lack of respect for life is lacking

JamesSand wrote:

So I went with what has been put forward and explained how it could kill me.

The premise of your story was "I went to a place I knew I was unwelcome"

From the other side of the story - you intruded, armed, into someone else's "domain" where they didn't want armed intruders.


That aside, your life isn't really so important, and escalation really helps no one in the end...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZnOsbD0wUw

Im sorry but yea my life is important and no one has the right to hurt me because they "claim" a street. Further, you have never taken a bus one stop to far? Never missed a bus stop? Because my stop was the one right before that stop that caused me trouble. Oh and that escalation sure saved me in the end.

Perhaps a general pack of respect for life is lacking

I respect all life, not necessarily "a" life.
I'm not saying I wouldn't defend myself in any situation - I have, and I would do so again, I'm not a martyr - but if we spend every day thinking everyone else is an enemy, and we are objectively more valuable than them, and we're willing to go to war over it - I suspect we've lost whatever game we're playing, as people or jedi, your pick.

Im sorry but yea my life is important and no one has the right to hurt me because they "claim" a street. Further, you have never taken a bus one stop to far? Never missed a bus stop? Because my stop was the one right before that stop that caused me trouble. Oh and that escalation sure saved me in the end.

And yet, if I claim a building on a rectangle of dirt, I have a right to hurt people unwelcome there*?. How bizarre.

Saved you for what?





*eh, not really, as far as laws goes - but I'm guessing "defending the home" is one of the popular arguments that comes up around this subject.

JamesSand wrote:

Perhaps a general pack of respect for life is lacking

I respect all life, not necessarily "a" life.
I'm not saying I wouldn't defend myself in any situation - I have, and I would do so again, I'm not a martyr - but if we spend every day thinking everyone else is an enemy, and we are objectively more valuable than them, and we're willing to go to war over it - I suspect we've lost whatever game we're playing, as people or jedi, your pick.

Im sorry but yea my life is important and no one has the right to hurt me because they "claim" a street. Further, you have never taken a bus one stop to far? Never missed a bus stop? Because my stop was the one right before that stop that caused me trouble. Oh and that escalation sure saved me in the end.

And yet, if I claim a building on a rectangle of dirt, I can defend it. How bizarre.

Saved you for what?

Saved me from being hurt. How bad I thankfully will never know. We can argue property rights all day but that is beyond the point. One has a right to protect what they own and have a safe home that they control who enters and exits. The differences between public and private land are pretty clear.

One has a right to protect what they own and have a safe home that they control who enters and exits. The differences between public and private land are pretty clear.

And the team with the biggest board and nail gets to decide what is public and private land
(in this instance, in most countries, the biggest board and nail belongs to a gang called "the government" and they decide where you can and can't stand)

Sometimes a gang hears that another gang, on a different street, is hiding a really big board with a big nail in it, so they call all their mates, get their boards and nails, and go to the other street to beat up the gang that *might* have a board and nail that could threaten them.

(I'm a white aussie, we're mostly famous for genocide and stealing land, so I can't pretend I have not profited from having more guns than someone with land you want)

Saved you for what?

Saved me from being hurt.

For what, nor from what.

It's a bit like the 'guns don't kill people' argument, its silly IMO, as you cannot control people, so instead you control access to lethality... And it's why people cannot wield certain types of weapons or buy military hardware that are deemed too lethal. What seems to have happened in the US is a capability creep within the confines of the law, such that now legally accessible firearms have lethality which can be argued to be beyond what should be acceptable for the community. The crooks want to have a bigger bang then the citizens, and the cops want a bigger bang then the crooks, but the citizens want a bigger bang then the cops and the crooks.. and around it goes. But proliferation has gone too far in the US so instead it might just have to be a long road on limiting their access to high density targets, with lots of control points to restrict unwanted movement of lethal systems, and deeply penetrating intelligence to detect organized use of them.

limiting their access to high density targets, with lots of control points to restrict unwanted movement of lethal systems, and deeply penetrating intelligence to detect organized use of them.

...huh.

I'm not much good with technology, but I could probably make a mint selling fences and razor wire under that....for lack of a better word...."regime".

It is to US , our selfs to figure our own every day out . My heart goes to those who are ... stuck.. in a place where their own personal freedoms are seemingly taken by the bad desisions around them . Been there done that... I was on the wrong end of that stick of I know what I mean.. born in a family and a neighborhood of violence and corruption. I began a path of downward spiral by where I was born.... I DID NOT STAY there . My encouragement to those is to take action in your own hands and think. There are always wasys besides violence. Many ways . They may take some strength , thought and action but violence is a path that begats itself. If your stuck , un stuck your self . There are ways . If u don't like your hood ... move. Figure something , take time to think , it will always pay off . Ps violence often acts first so if you think first , your ahead of the game !

MadHatter,

I love you. You may not like me. You may not like what I say or how I say it. You may not understand my motives or intentions, but I love you. And it kills me that you have this much fear.

I think it is human nature to ask yourself "What if this happened. What if that happened?" What if someone broke into my house? A family just shot their teenage son who was sneaking back in after sneaking out. He's dead now. That just happened. They were so afraid that he was a stranger and that they were in danger that they executed one of the very souls they thought they were protecting. This occurrence is more common than your missed bus stop scenario where you can have the foresight to bring a life-taking weapon but not the presence of mind not to miss your stop.

It is the proliferation of weapons that creates these stories about how one should end the lives of 5 people because they're scared of any amount of physical harm. Police often make life or death decisions in split second based on the fear that this person "might" have the capability and capacity to hurt them. It is a fear that assumes that everyone is a murderer until proven innocent. And since I'm black, now I have to assume that the police are going to assume that I'm automatically a dangerous threat to their lives who could have a knife, a gun, or hell, even a bazooka because why not? Right? How do I protect myself from THAT gang in blue?

Do you know why young kids join gangs? Because they're afraid of being hurt by some stranger who may or may not have a weapon; may or may not have a gun; may or may not have friends who have guns. FEAR is what creates gangs in the first place. You think they're tough? No, if they were tough they'd whoop your behind single handedly. Instead, they all become each other's weapons; giving each other security and peace of mind that no one would be dumb enough to hurt them if hurting them means offending their friends.

I had a guy over my house; friend of one of my fiance's best friends. Cool guy. Great personality. Kept talking about some incident at this club where they got into a stupid fight over some words... disrespect... whatever. And he's talking like I should have wanted to be there, like I would love to be able to join in. I'm not a small guy. I still remember being small, but I'm far from it now. And at the end of the day the smart thing, whether you are big or small, is to AVOID fights.

Why the hell would you get off the bus if you already anticipated a problem? But no, what you're suggesting is that you become the threat that people join gangs to protect themselves from. You're the danger. Not because you have a gun. Not because you have a bigger "stick". But because you are filled with fear and have the willingness to end the LIFE of another human being to avoid being hurt when if it was truly a life or death situation you could have stayed on the damn bus.

This is how we contribute to violence. By being afraid of violence. By being afraid of it we add to it. And we stand on the sidelines, not doing anything because we don't want to be next. We don't want to be a target. And we want to have our own gangs and our own library of guns to give us security. I worked with a guy who had over 20 guns. Nice guy. Great personality. But again, too influenced by fear. Gangs are obviously a focal point of violence. But the things they do are done in an ironic effort to keep themselves safe. Why do they roll in groups? Safety in numbers; pack mentality.

You have no idea how rare the situation you're talking about is. You don't understand the streets so you assume that they are filled by a bunch of human predators who can't wait to kill you so they can go to jail for years, not have sex(with women) for years, and be a financial burden on their friends and families. No, they don't think about any of that. They are just out there salivating at the thought of beating you into a bloody pulp. Not even animals kill for no reason. If you're in their territory they may scare you so you LEAVE their territory. If you run they probably won't chase you. Instead they might laugh at how fast you ran because they'd rather laugh than risk getting in real trouble.

The best way to survive on the streets is a little technique called "mind your own damn business". The currency of the streets are money and respect. If a person has no beef with you and you're not a threat then you're not a target. This idea, especially that "black thugs" just beat up on poor defenseless white dudes is a fiction provoked by those who traffic in fear. And that fear spreads. And instead of saying "I'm racist and hate black people." they say insinuate that you should all be afraid of black people. And then, like Trayvon, YOU are the killer; not them. And THEN when they see you... now they DO have beef because, to them, YOU ARE THE THUG.

We really have to decide how important human life is. To me, that is the central logical question from which all these ancillary questions and policies diverge.

On the one hand we say that because life is important we must invest in death by way of a strong military. But as soon as a moronic childish sociopath can't play nice with another moronic childish sociopath all of a sudden we're at the edge of nuclear war. That kind of throws the idea of one country being allowed to have nukes because "we're responsible with the power and you're not"... throws it right out the window. At this point I don't even want the US to have nukes and that's my country. I don't even trust my own government at this point, not to fire. And that's sad.

9/11 happened and the country was outraged against Muslims. What followed were the deaths of millions of muslims who had nothing to do with 9/11 and the regulation of ALL AIR TRAVEL. I can't get on a plane anymore without taking my shoes off and possibly walking through an x-ray machine that can measure the size of my genitals. The cost of all this, by the way... astronomical.

Now we call 911 every time there is a mass shooting. Do we focus on mental health issues? Do we build mental health hospitals and go to war to disarm mentally ill people? No. They want to make it easier for them to get guns. Do we disallow people to have more than 3 guns? Do we go to war against illegal weapons and gun shows and all these loopholes? Do we make it harder for people to buy guns or enforce safety mechanisms to keep guns from working for people who didn't buy them from the manufacturer? Do we ban guns that make it easy for ONE PERSON to gun down 59 people? And with all the guns that exist in the country, how many of those guns, bought for "defensive" purposes, stopped the shooter? Not one. He was able to kill over 50 people, injured HUNDREDS, and then end his own life.

We're willing to invade the private parts of average citizens to stop "Terrorists" from hijacking planes. But we hesitate and listen to the gun industry which supports the NRA and let them terrorize us into thinking that their guns are the solution to other people's guns. All they're doing is arming both sides of a conflict. And when people get murdered like this their stocks go up. People buy more. It's insane. We're choosing profits over common sense. We're choosing the IDEA of safety over people's actual lives. Owning a gun doesn't make you more secure. All it does it signal other people that they need to have guns too. Because now they have to protect themselves from you. And while everyone is buying up guns to protect themselves (even the criminals) the fundamental idea of protection and what it means to the individual can warp and justify shooting "first" and cause them to go on offense. And then they're shooting because they don't want to be hurt. And then they're shooting because they don't want to be hurt emotionally; or because they got hurt emotionally, or their boss ain't treating them right, or their co-workers, or their wives, or their kids. In the end people's trigger finger gets so itchy that it goes off more when it shouldn't, than when they are in actual mortal danger.

And I say this as someone who is going to court in 7 days to sit in the audience at the trial of a young person who shot my cousin. When are we going to get tired of people getting shot?