Basic Art of the Sword and Light saber Combat

As I have begun delving into the art of the sword, here are a few links dealing with basic swordfighting. The first is about Kendo, and is slightly more comprehensive. The second is about European Longsword fighting (mainly the German Tradition). The third is a link to Terra Prime Lightsaber Academy, as it has good resources for learning the basics of light saber combat. If anyone has other links they would like to share, that would be awesome

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/support-files/jsa-ebook.pdf

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/sword-fighting-schools.html

https://sites.google.com/site/terraprimelightsaberacademy/

Also, if anyone just wants to discuss the art of the sword & lightsaber and give tips on training, that would be great!

check out Cold Steel. Look at their plastic training swords. I use them all the time. I highly recommend them.

baru wrote: check out Cold Steel. Look at their plastic training swords. I use them all the time. I highly recommend them.

I'll second this, but they aren't typical plastic. They're some kind of seriously hardcore synthetic. You can scratch it, but breaking it is ridiculously difficult. They have give and bend, which makes them really useful. I have one of their walking canes made out of the same stuff (the blackthorn reproduction), and it is legitimately useful as a weapon if necessary, due to the way it transmits force.

As for the OP, I was a fencer in college and have dabbled in many weapon styles, but never settled on learning one very in-depth. I can use any blade presented to me as a tool, but as a coherent system of martial training, I'm lacking.

The Jian has always struck me as very similar to the Lightsabre:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jian

Yeah it does, it looks like an interesting sword. I like it

For me the practical application of Star Wars lightsaber symbology translates most usefully to understanding how it might be advantageous to mindfulness and decision making to movement more broadly. I use the Forms to represent application of mind to best wield of the Force to enable best action, instead of the common approach to use drilled sets of kata.... which is the popular use of the various Form's.

Form III - Spherical Coordinate System (defensive circle). This is the ideal defensive technique for multiple opponents/objectives and open spaces.

Form IV - Polar Coordinate System (offensive projection). Suited to a single opponent/objective and open spaces or when speed of movement is required.

Form V - Cartesian Coordinate System (specialized offensive). This Form can be used defensively or offensively but is best suited to confined spaces or who are otherwise limited in movement, or have added strength in direct strikes. It's weakness is multiple opponents/objectives but this is assumed to be a reduced likelihood in confined spaces.

Form VI - Cylindrical Coordinate System (specialized defensive). It is a reduced version of Soresu, designed for confined spaces. This Form suited dual wielding and multiple opponents/objectives because its tighter movements ensuring greater control and its speed and flow.

Form's I and II for me are training forms with specific approaches that then translate to having some utility in dueling, but do not provide the possibilities of the dedicated Form Styles. These two are close to being set kata, but only because they are limited approaches.

A few years ago I went through Episode III and tried to summarize who was doing what according to that model of Form. It might have a few mistakes, particularly the opening stances. Perhaps try it yourself before comparing it to mine and let me know where I'm wrong!!;

I studied the jian for several years. It is a lovely and valuable art.

If you are interested in studying the sword, I also reccomend Kali. Filipino martial arts schools can be tough to find, but it is worth the sweat and bruises.

Adder wrote: A few years ago I went through Episode III and tried to summarize who was doing what according to that model of Form. It might have a few mistakes, particularly the opening stances. Perhaps try it yourself before comparing it to mine and let me know where I'm wrong!!;

I must be dense, I hadn't thought of the lightsabre in metaphorical terms... Makes sense.

I have not closely analyzed these movies, but presume the lightsabre work is theatrically-based sets... (the assumption might yet make an a**.. of me...)?

Theatrical sword-work is typically about attacking the other weapon as opposed to attacking the opponent...

For "realistic" study of swordplay, I find HEMA practitioners are very interesting. People like John Clements have worked quite hard at "reclaiming" the Blade:

The ARMA organization
Reclaiming the Blade

Cabur Senaar wrote: I studied the jian for several years. It is a lovely and valuable art.

If you are interested in studying the sword, I also reccomend Kali. Filipino martial arts schools can be tough to find, but it is worth the sweat and bruises.

I just touched the surface of the Jian. I learned 1 form but none of the 2 person sets. It is such a nuanced weapon, the scholar's blade...

Kali was always of interest but I haven't so far had the time to indulge...

baru wrote: check out Cold Steel. Look at their plastic training swords. I use them all the time. I highly recommend them.

It's true that these products are darn near unbreakable, but I will warn this. If what you want is something that moves and feels similar to a forged steel blade then they are not the best solution (at least for their products shaped like Japanese blades). They have too much flex and they are too light. However, if accurate representation of steel blades is not your concern then they are great. Always remember your purpose.

As for training tips, as someone who has trained in/taught martial arts for around twenty years I HIGHLY recommend finding competent instruction. There are individuals who can be self taught and actually be very very good but they are few and far between. You can get a decent basic understanding on your own but it's hard to progress beyond that. I've also found that source material for self training is less than complete.

Just reading through the thread and noting no one's yet made the point longsword, kendo etc are not good maps for lightsaber style combat. You want something using light, very sharp blades, and geared at disarming or dismembering your oponents rather than simply scoring "sport hits".

I studied Shinkendo for a little while, based on samurai styles. We used bokken but were trained to treat them like live blades. Shinkendo and some of the forms it's based on practice test cutting (as in... chopping things up) with live blades, which always struck me as particularly relevant to those wanting a lightsaber-like sword art.

Indeed, I believe Form 1: Shii Cho is actually based off Shinkendo partially.

tzb wrote: which always struck me as particularly relevant to those wanting a lightsaber-like sword art.

Just to be clear, below is just an opinion... Any sword form which is similar to a classical fencing sabre will have similar moves, so trying to ascertain which is going to be the best analog, probably kind of irrelevant, and I don't want to give the impression that I'm hung-up on the form...

However, with respect to Lightsabre techniques from the movies, they were done by Bob Anderson and he might possibly disagree with your assumption. Although you can't ask him, as he's now gone...

Bob was the principal choreographer for the Lightsabre scenes (correct me if wrong, I might be)...

If memory serves, he talks a bit about it in "Reclaiming the Blade" , which I found to be a fascinating documentary...

The evolution of the European Fencing Sabre is clouded by the evolution of the firearm, but Historical European Fencing is Bob's background...

I believe the Lightsabre owes more to the HEMA and the longsword's progression to fencing sabre, than the better known oriental cousins....

Having said that, I briefly studied the Chinese Jian, and I see similarities in technique....

I don't think there is a lightsabre othodoxy... Yet

The principles of lightsaber combat has been fiercely debated by me and my martial arts students and friends as we practice a form of Japanese sword very similar to Shinkendo. I believe that lightsaber combat would be best done as similar to European fencing and here is my reasoning.

Lightsabers do not require force to go through a human body, or at least that's how my understanding of a blade capable of cutting through blaster doors goes. Japanese sword is based on the principles of severing limbs and cutting people in half so the movements are frequently large and from the shoulders. A blade that does not require physical strength to cut could be moved in smaller, faster motions and produce the same effect. That being said, since a lightsaber is also different from any weapon ever actually wielded by man I believe that it would develop it's own unique style that would combine many elements from various arts to best wield it specifically.

As to what was done in the movies, well they were trying for semi-realistic while still cinematic. When you've got two swords made of colored light why not make large motions with them? It's far cooler looking. You then make the fights semi-realistic based on that idea.

I say this as a dedicated student of the sword:

What is your goal in all this. Sword work can be excellent exercise and a great way to focus the attention. Sparring can work on mental resilience. Fantastic. And any physical discipline can take on spiritual dimensions if properly applied.

I am all for studying the sword, kept in perspective. Note: If you have one slung under your long coat, you have low perspective.

Focusing on the choreography from the movies may not get you that far. Speculating on forms from the fiction might be a waste. There is plenty of real swordwork to learn. If we cleave too close to the specifics of the fiction, we might lose our way a bit. This might just be an opportunity for us to keep it real. As in, realistic.

Cabur Senaar wrote: I say this as a dedicated student of the sword:

What is your goal in all this. Sword work can be excellent exercise and a great way to focus the attention. Sparring can work on mental resilience. Fantastic. And any physical discipline can take on spiritual dimensions if properly applied.

I am all for studying the sword, kept in perspective. Note: If you have one slung under your long coat, you have low perspective.

Focusing on the choreography from the movies may not get you that far. Speculating on forms from the fiction might be a waste. There is plenty of real swordwork to learn. If we cleave too close to the specifics of the fiction, we might lose our way a bit. This might just be an opportunity for us to keep it real. As in, realistic.

Excellent point. I suppose if we wanted to debate fighting styles of the fictional weapons or the choreography in the movies we could start a different thread. I'll refer to my first post on this thread as my real post as it was more in line with reality and the OP.

As for having one slung under my long coat, I'm still trying to figure out how Christopher Lambert was able to sit down or belt his coat that way. LOL

I agree that clinging too closely to fiction brings inherent problems. However, one must remember that the art of the sword in the modrn era is in itself not the most practical form of combat compared to learning how to use a gun. For me, the art of the sword is something I am approaching as a way to become more in tune with myself, as with all martial arts. As such, I feel learning to use a sword is fitting for a Jedi.

Shortstaff/hanbō is most practical IMO, nothing to do with cutting but instead its about blocking, leverage redirection, application of force etc. This seems more practical because lots of things can work in this way, a piece of wood, walking stick, metal rod, letterbox LOL, whatever is handy... as if being used in anger the situation must be rather desperate already ie out of peaceful options. For me the big thing about lightsabers was not the sword fighting itself, but the concept of being able to speed up processing in decision making and bodily reactions, enter the training droid..



.. which to me demonstrates a good Form I, based around the principle of least action.

Arkayik wrote: If memory serves, he talks a bit about it in "Reclaiming the Blade" , which I found to be a fascinating documentary...

...

I believe the Lightsabre owes more to the HEMA and the longsword's progression to fencing sabre, than the better known oriental cousins....

I quite agree... of course, except for the grabbing of one's opponent's blade ahahaha But yes, HEMA is an excellent resource of resources. I've recently rekindled my interest in it myself, seeing how quite energetically my son ("Torran", here in TotJO) is excelling at it. I started when my blood-brother Michael Crowley, a fellow swordsman and swordsmith, forged my sword nearabouts a quarter-century ago... then I got a bit distracted with T'ai Qi lion swords... while here in Japan this past decade, I've looked into kendo, etc. - totally disenchanted. Now I'm getting back to my own roots.

Oh, and that awesome documentary... I found it right here