New Degree System of Jediism?

Split of, of a previous topic: https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Temple/113769-is-the-faq-confusing/

Aqua wrote:

Akkarin wrote: Do people have any other suggestions?

I was wondering about a redoing of the Divinity degree system. I find it incomplete, really incomplete. Even though it is complete in the FAQ. I would like tot change the system. Initiates have studied, but it is not rerecorded in the system. But it is part of the system. A doctor is not a honorable degree, but a degree of pure learning.

If you move the B.div and the M.div. It will sound more appropriate to the rank that comes with it. I am sorry that I put it here, but I think that this degree system is highly confusing for many. I hope that I can trigger the council to talk about it, some day. Sorry for mentioning this again, it is my third attempt to say this but I feel that no Jedi tries to listen to this idea, I feel really sorry for mentioning it again, but I find it too important. Would you please bring it to attention for me, if I am allowed to ask you? :blush:

current system:
A.Div = Knight
B.Div = Senior Knight
D.Div = Honorary

Possible new system:
A.div
F.div
B.div
M.div
D.div
H.div

Why??

Idea for a new system:
Associate Degree of Divinity = Initiate -- IP is part of the program, should be recognized
Foundation degree of Divinity = Knight -- Knight knows the basics of Jediism, a good foundation
Bachelor Degree of Divinity = Senior Knight -- Higher study of ''Bachelor'' should fit a Senior knight
Master Degree of Divinity = Master Knight -- Master degree for a master knight should fit
Doctorate Degree of Divinity = Master Knight -- Written a book (600p+) about Jediism, unique subject!
Honorary degree of Divinity = Jedi -- New honorable degree for extraordinary contribution to Jediism.

But the IP is recognised... the degree scheme points gained by completing it count for about half the A.Div. Your depiction of the current scheme also misses the M.Div, Master of Divinity, gained with Senior Knighthood and completion of Seminary.

Really not convinced we need more complexity here... if anything, I feel we would benefit from a little simplificication

Why would Jedi strive for additional recognition? And... what is the actual benefit of recognising more levels, as you propose? You haven't mentioned that... simply making the additional levels "sync up" with some words we happen to use for ranks doesn't seem a wise reason to totally restructure the degree scheme.

Edit - my bad. Even I'm confused

tzb wrote: [strike]But the IP is recognised... the degree scheme points gained by completing it count for about half the A.Div.

Really not convinced we need more complexity here... if anything, I feel we would benefit from a little simplificication

Why would Jedi strive for additional recognition? And... what is the actual benefit of recognising more levels, as you propose? You haven't mentioned that.[/strike]

[strike]Mm.. you do have a point.. simple is handy. Maybe I should say it different? The words that are used confuse me Just a small idea.. in no person likes it, I guess we all have to forget that I have mentioned it :lol: Though I stand behind this idea somehow.. :blush: Simple systems can also bring confusion?[/strike]

tzb wrote: But the IP is recognised... the degree scheme points gained by completing it count for about half the A.Div. Your depiction of the current scheme also misses the M.Div, Master of Divinity, gained with Senior Knighthood and completion of Seminary.

Really not convinced we need more complexity here... if anything, I feel we would benefit from a little simplificication

Why would Jedi strive for additional recognition? And... what is the actual benefit of recognising more levels, as you propose? You haven't mentioned that... simply making the additional levels "sync up" with some words we happen to use for ranks doesn't seem a wise reason to totally restructure the degree scheme.

Edit - my bad. Even I'm confused

It is not about creating more levels, it is about merging the levels with a div. system that suits with it! :side: I do not want to make more, but to equalize it. A doctor is not a honor, but a degree of study.. So that is also not logical. That would be the only ''big'' change I guess. But if the idea is not good enough :blush: We should forget it.. I guess But I stand behind this idea however.

~ Aqua

When I was in charge of the degree scheme (committee), there was one irreconcilable problem: We had no actual purpose for the Degree Scheme.

And, if we are to have one, there is no need to figure out how it works until we decide WHAT it is, and more importantly WHY it is.

Personally, in my meditations, I found that the degree scheme was superfluous and unnecessary. So, I don't worry about it anymore.

But seriously... what is the benefit of your proposal?

People struggle to understand the current system with 4 levels... :dry:

And sorry... I edited as you were replying.

tzb wrote: But seriously... what is the benefit of your proposal?

People struggle to understand the current system with 4 levels... :dry:

And sorry... I edited as you were replying.

Ehm, well.. I find it weird that the temple has a large rank structure, but only three degree div. things. What is the purpose of having inequality in these two different systems? What is the logical idea behind it? I would like to understand that a little bit better..
If the two systems (rank and div.) are displayed together, there would be less struggle to understand?

~ Aqua

There's 4, so even you are evidently confused

Again... you have proposed a new system and describe no actual benefits for adopting it, so far as I can see. That things "should be recognised" in the scheme... as I say, they already are.

Finally the H.Div recognising one as "Jedi"... all that is required to be recognised as Jedi is to believe that which is in our Doctrine.

tzb wrote: There's 4, so even you are evidently confused

Again... you have proposed a new system and describe no actual benefits for adopting it, so far as I can see. That things "should be recognised" in the scheme... as I say, they already are.

The benefits, ( read edit I made for you, in my first reaction :blush: ) Equality, rank system have different levels of understanding. But the div. system makes it like there are globally 3 ways of degree. I find it highly confusing that the temple ranks are so many, but with only 3/4 div. What is the purpose or logical behind that?

~ Aqua

At the moment there's really only two though...

D.Div has more or less been scrapped, and M.Div has been suspended for a long time now




I find the system that we are left with very simple and non-confusing:

Knighthood = half a degree (A.Div)
Senior Knight(hood) = a whole degree (B.Div)

Pretty straightforward, right?

V-Tog wrote: At the moment there's really only two though...

D.Div has more or less been scrapped, and M.Div has been suspended for a long time now




I find the system that we are left with very simple and non-confusing:

Knighthood = half a degree (A.Div)
Senior Knight(hood) = a whole degree (B.Div)

Pretty straightforward, right?

Mm.. I made this split of after the faq post.. I can not find something about a half degree in the faq? It confuses me. :dry: Tried to bring up a old idea, but that seems to be not so good of me..

Having more degrees would complicate matters, they seem superfluous whereas the ones we have now (of which there are two) actually correspond to significant steps in your learning.

tzb wrote: Your depiction of the current scheme also misses the M.Div, Master of Divinity, gained with Senior Knighthood and completion of Seminary.

Regarding M.Div and D.Div, neither are actually a thing anymore, because we don't have any policies designed to actually grant them. The reason the D.Div is there is because I chose to leave mention of it, and when it was used it was used honorifically. The post-Knighthood part of the degree needs to be changed, if it includes degrees beyond B.Div we'll just have to wait and see.

Ok. The Details of Degree Scheme post pinned in the forum still lists them, I wasn't aware they'd been scrapped. My bad

Akkarin wrote: Having more degrees would complicate matters, they seem superfluous whereas the ones we have now (of which there are two) actually correspond to significant steps in your learning.

tzb wrote: Your depiction of the current scheme also misses the M.Div, Master of Divinity, gained with Senior Knighthood and completion of Seminary.

Regarding M.Div and D.Div, neither are actually a thing anymore, because we don't have any policies designed to actually grant them. The reason the D.Div is there is because I chose to leave mention of it, and when it was used it was used honorifically. The post-Knighthood part of the degree needs to be changed, if it includes degrees beyond B.Div we'll just have to wait and see.

Guess that, your words answer my question :blush:

Aqua wrote: I can not find something about a half degree in the faq? It confuses me. :dry:

We try not to talk about the nitty-gritty of this stuff too much, but the B.Div is a Bachelors degree and therefore is equivalent to what is commonly thought of as 'a degree' - i.e. when you go to university in the traditional sense, you graduate with a Bachelors degree (at least, in the UK we call it that!).

Here at TOTJO that degree (the B.Div) is worth 400 points/credits. All of the work that you complete over your entire time here contributes to these 400 points.

At the point of becoming a Knight you would have earned 200 points/credits so far, which is the requirement for the A.Div - so you can see that numerically speaking, it is quite literally half of the full B.Div degree.

Does that help?

V-Tog wrote:

Aqua wrote: I can not find something about a half degree in the faq? It confuses me. :dry:

We try not to talk about the nitty-gritty of this stuff too much, but the B.Div is a Bachelors degree and therefore is equivalent to what is commonly thought of as 'a degree' - i.e. when you go to university in the traditional sense, you graduate with a Bachelors degree (at least, in the UK we call it that!).

Here at TOTJO that degree (the B.Div) is worth 400 points/credits. All of the work that you complete over your entire time here contributes to these 400 points.

At the point of becoming a Knight you would have earned 200 points/credits so far, which is the requirement for the A.Div - so you can see that numerically speaking, it is quite literally half of the full B.Div degree.

Does that help?

Ehm, you do give me more questions. Sorry :blush: But I have never heard of the point system, something for FAQ maybe?

tzb wrote: Ok. The Details of Degree Scheme post pinned in the forum still lists them, I wasn't aware they'd been scrapped. My bad

Fixed. Personally I always forget about the forum posts, I don't really use them, because I find articles better lol. So if anyone finds posts containing stuff which seems out of date please let me know because the information is most likely wrong.

Aqua, the points are a system of keeping track of the progress of the student.

The IP is worth 100 points. And, the apprenticeship is worth 100 points (give or take). However, the only people who keep track of the points are the training masters. The Apprentices are unaware of the points they are getting because we don't want people just trying to collect points.

We do not discuss points with people under the Knighthood rank generally. Sorry if that doesn't help much. haha.

In general, the Degree Scheme is ONLY for people who have been Knighted. The Degree forums are hidden from view until being Knighted.

Though, by completing the IP and an Apprenticeship you have completed an Associates Degree (or, as V calls it.. half a degree).

I think the point is that people below the Knight rank don't have much to do with the degree scheme, which is why the information about it is confusing to people who aren't already Knights.

I am still waiting for somebody to come along and tell me what they think the PURPOSE of the Degree Scheme is.

Connor L. wrote: I am still waiting for somebody to come along and tell me what they think the PURPOSE of the Degree Scheme is.

Removing it is always a possibility. I would not mis it to be honest. :blush:

Aqua wrote: Ehm, you do give me more questions. Sorry :blush: But I have never heard of the point system, something for FAQ maybe?

It's because it can be very distracting - it can be tempting to focus on accumulating points rather than just enjoying the studies.

The points exist as a means to an end (a way of fairly verifying the qualifications) but are not supposed to mean anything much more than that - if they were mentioned and explained all over the place it might give the impression that we put a lot of focus on them, which would be counter-productive.

What do you think?

V-Tog wrote:

Aqua wrote: Ehm, you do give me more questions. Sorry :blush: But I have never heard of the point system, something for FAQ maybe?

It's because it can be very distracting - it can be tempting to focus on accumulating points rather than just enjoying the studies.

The points exist as a means to an end (a way of fairly verifying the qualifications) but are not supposed to mean anything much more than that - if they were mentioned and explained all over the place it might give the impression that we put a lot of focus on them, which would be counter-productive.

What do you think?

Thank you saying V. :blush: , could not agree more now you all mention it like that.. Dit not thought about the training master and points in that way before Now you say it like that, do not want to know it with that in my mind. To come back on the words of Connor, would removing this div. system be good? What would the consequences be if it would be gone?

~ Aqua