Are Jedi Against Deception

Greetings Jedi,

I find that deception and truth are both equally important and both are just as manipulative as the other and it takes skill to learn the truth and skill to learn deception. So I started lying when I was twelve because I spoke so truthfully that people hated me. And when I lied, people were attracted to me. So whenever me and my friend hears a lie we both recite these two lines:

Oh, what a tangled web we weave
When first we practise to deceive!

Then when I started smoking weed in college my mum came into the dormitory and said "What's that smell?" And me and my friend looked at each other and said "Its the smell of wild Garlic" then pointed toward the garlic bulb in the kitchen. So whenever my mum smelled marijuana she said "its that garlic smell again".

My question is "Is deception something the Jedi oppose?"

Personally the better you are at speaking truthfully and listening to truth can help a Jedi improve. However there comes point in your life that you question "should one speak the truth, if people cant tolerate the truth?" So are the Jedi opposed to deception?

Also Because I am British we have to stand up in class in remembrance of 'World War Two' and learn about 'Propaganda' and recite, Loose Lips Sinks Ships. Basically meaning "if there wasn't a web of deception in society there would be war from our enemies". Yet people hate and oppose deception as though it were 'bad' and are punished for deceiving others or told not to tell fibs.

...this punishment which only further highlights that when one learns 'the truth' that there is a massive web of deception, that people cant tolerate such truth and only further creates the need for deception.


Love & Light xx

Greetings,

This is indeed the philosophy section so here are some arguments: Most people would say that lying is always wrong, except when there's a good reason for it like Kitsu Tails - which means that it's not always wrong!

This definition says, that what makes a lie, a lie is the liars intention: Because Lying treats those who are lied to as a means to achieve the liar's purpose, rather than as a valuable end in themselves.

Lying is bad. Period.

Jedi like any other human will pretend they are good and do so for acceptance or popularity and also egocentric desire of positive feedback from peers. Good and Evil characters will also believe in anything, wrong doing and anything else, when it suits them because its a fundamental human nature to manipulate to support oneself. Much like the Sith who commit evil like lying and killing to achieve their means. The lines between good and evil become indistinguishable.

Many people think that it is wrong to treat people as means to an ends. Lying is bad, because it does just that, it makes it difficult for the person being lied to, to make a free and informed decision about the matter concerned. So that the liars purpose is achieved. Lying its also a form of elitism so that the liars purpose outweighs the deceived person.

Lies lead people to base their decisions on false information. Lying is bad because it cannot sensibly be made into a universal principle. Many people think that something should only be accepted as an ethical rule if it can be applied in every case so therefore Lying is bad because it's cannot be a basic moral choice.

Some things are fundamentally bad - lying is one of them. Those who tell 'good lies' don't generally suffer bad consequences - although they may do so on some occasions. Lying and truth-telling. Above all a liar should have a very good memory.


There is no Good or Bad only Power
There is no lie, only success
There is no Try only do or do not


Love & Light

"Good" and "bad" are personal judgments and values....

You appear to be a very "black and white" person...

Rather than the "shades of grey" that most Jedi are...

You provided a definition for lying, I don't agree with it, so lets start with a common definition, if you truely wish to engage in conversation...

To find this, let's start with an agreed upon definition of "lie" or "lying"...

I will give you first choice, well second choice, and lets start with a dictionary definition... Sound OK?

Or I can find one, if you like....

Ariane wrote: Loose Lips Sinks Ships.

This was on posters to remind people they didn't know who they were talking to so they didn't away any secrets accidentally, not to incite anyone to actually deceive.

Truth is the basis for trust.. and if I deceive someone, then I believe I don't deserve their trust.
I do not believe in pretending something is true when it isn't just to get my own way. And if you want my opinion I'll give it to you, all of it. That said, I can only tell you my truth.. and whether you believe it is another thing.

Greetings

Ok then Jestor, here we go

A lie has three essential features:

1. A lie communicates some information
2. The liar intends to deceive or mislead
3. The liar believes that what they are 'saying' is not true

There are some features that people think are part of lying, but aren't really actually necessary:


4. A lie does not have to give false information
5. A lies does not have to be told with a bad (malicious) intention - white lies are an example of lies told with a good intention

What my point is, if Jedi relent on ethical principles and succumb to subversion to achieve their vision and shape the world as they see fit and are "shades of grey" as you say, then then how can we Jedi claim we are good?

Also Edan i think your naive in a world that has committed such evil, how can one be expected to be good? Lying is a bigger issue that we must become good at as Kitsu Tails suggests. Lying is not moral and we must use evil to achieve our goals because after all Good does not exist.

And as socrates said morals should exist universally if they have any value :evil: :whistle:

I am confused on the dictionary definitions

what dictionary

1 definition for lie 2 for liar?

what is the truth of this?

Meereka,

My definition of 'lying' is that it doesn't matter if the information is true or false, but you need to present some form of information but also withholding information can be deceptive too. Secondly A liar must believe he is presenting a dubious or inaccurate information, being deceptive as opposed to misinformation or erroneous data.

Lots of things I could say about this.

But,

What my point is, if Jedi relent on ethical principles and succumb to subversion to achieve their vision and shape the world as they see fit and are "shades of grey" as you say, then then how can we Jedi claim we are good?

Where do we relent on ethical principles? Where do we succumb to subversion to achieve our vision? Where do we shape the world as we see fit?

On, on the other hand, where do we claim we are good?

Jedi are not one body working in tandem... we are a thriving community of very different people (not automatons).

Mareeka wrote: I am confused on the dictionary definitions

what dictionary

1 definition for lie 2 for liar?

what is the truth of this?

If math is the "universal language", then looking at talking, must be the same...

To begin a conversations, we must agree in the "common denominators"...

I was letting Ariane pick what definition, which dictionary, we use...

That's all a dictionary is, a posted, commonly accepted definition...

And to define either...

Perhaps, if you are confused, watch the conversation, and see where it goes?

Ariane and i seem to be understanding each other...

++++++++++
Ariane, in both your posts, you've edited and altered words and sentences, which makes responses difficult...

So, I will wait the one hour time limit to respond so that i can use what you've posted...

I don't want to.misquote...

Ariane wrote: Also Edan i think your naive in a world that has committed such evil, how can one be expected to be good?

What, so I should give up now? I'm a student of history and psychology.. I am fully aware of some of the terrible things done in this world, that are being done... but just because 'evil' acts have been committed by others, it doesn't mean I should not keep to my own standards. Sometimes I might fail, that's the nature of being human, we all make mistakes, but I'm still going to try. I don't believe that makes me naive.

Greetings Jedi,

Edan, My answer is, You are naive to value Good over Evil without first understanding the nature of ethics. Being a student is Good and worthwhile, but you cannot learn everything you need too, before you are asked to commit evil in the name of good.

I find that deception and truth are both equally important but I don't support either of them. Philosophers give value to human principles like Good and Evil but in truth that is just a label to support or reject human behaviour, in reality there is no Good and Evil. Only what humans ascribe meaning too.

Truth And Deception are like Good and Evil the basic duality of the dichotomy of ethics. While ‘Truth’ is valued and honoured and the other ‘deception’ rebuked and punished. Much like Good and Evil everyone strives for Good including Jedi and everyone hates and disdains evil.

Lying is not evil, its wrong, and we must do wrong to be Good.

My Answer is: “we must succumb to Evil and use it to our advantage”

When Jedi, when they do relent on ethical principles. Which they will and do so many times. When we Jedi succumb to subversion to achieve our vision. Such as Lying and killing to shape the world as we see fit. Then what is the difference between Good and Evil, my answer is that, there is no difference, it is impossible to act and be Good in an Evil world without submitting to good or evil.

While there are small victories over evil like choosing the lesser between two evils that doesn't make you a good person.


P.S I know I am being vague, but basically there is Evil and we must do Evil to stop the greater evil from emerging by choosing lesser evils. Its called moral relativism it doesn't make sense but the idea is that Jedi must learn to choose the least amount of evil. And if Jedi are not Good then why don't they support are more diverse set of principles?My family are military officials, and they say that good people must do terrible things.

Thanks for your time :pinch:

I also do not believe that edan is naive. When you focus on all those negatives then the world is a harsh and horrible place. But as edan said, we should hold ourselves to our own standard. I am well aware of how being a successful liar can benefit, but to kind of echo arriane's comment that in my experience it's usually for selfish reasons.

I personally pride myself on my honesty. And that honesty has not always gone in my favour, but I think it wrong to assume people can not handle the truth, that is not for us to judge.

Whether being honest makes me a good person or not is debatable and I'll probably never know that answer but I would like to be told the truth at all times regardless of the nature, and so I treat others as I would want to be.

That being said I have like one friend and am not the most popular person, so perhaps honesty should be taken with a punch of salt? Still, that's not changed my approach lol

Ariane, I am still lost by why you think I'm naive. I don't believe in such black and white labels as good and evil, which possibly doesn't help as we are looking at this from different perceptions of the world. And I understand the nature of ethics, I'm just not sure you're trying to understand my viewpoint.

nothing really is "right" or "wrong" in and of itself

for instance, if you WANT to kill everyone in the whole world as quickly as possible, then nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons are all very "good" and "right" things to make/develop

if you WANT for people to be willing to trust you and give you the benefit of the doubt and go along with what you tell them even when things look doubtful or unlikely, then making a commitment to honesty (most especially the commitment to be honest when the truth is difficult to admit) is a "good" and "right" thing to do

these are some of the problems with lies

1) the results you achieve in many cases are predicated on the lie
which means that when the truth does surface - and it very often does - the results (usually "the results" will be roles or social positions, such as jobs or political placements or relationships, this sort of thing) will vanish

2) not only do they vanish but they will usually never be available again, and EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT THE LIAR IS SUSPECT AS WELL

once it is seen that a person lies to get what they want, the suspicion of what they say is ALWAYS going to be there

its very very difficult to trust someone who you know to lie when the chips are down

its not just difficult, its foolish
if you know that someone lies, do not trust what they say to you - they lie! if he/she will lie to this person or that person then they will lie to you too
if they say they would never lie to you THEY ARE LYING lol

3) lies are most often either cowardly or treacherous.
theres a huge difference between a spartan warrior lying to xerxes about thermopylae and that same warrior lying to leonidas about thermopylae

a jedi must cultivate courage
if fear is the only reason that you want to do or not do a particular thing then generally speaking you should take the action which requires courage

this is not the same thing as jumping into the river to wrestle and alligator just to face your fear

that would be a situation where GOOD JUDGEMENT was ALSO a reason not to do something and in those cases good judgement trumps courage

the courage comes from being HONEST about the difference and being committed to live courageously and honestly

treachery again is something which is only "good" or "bad" depending on what you want
if you want to topple the agreement structure and the unity structure of the system youre involved in, then treachery is exactly how to do it

if you want that structure to thrive and to flourish then loyalty, thus honesty, is required as a pretty inflexible rule

4) how we treat others VERY OFTEN is simply an outward projection of how we treat and/or feel about ourselves

this pertains to lying because people who regularly lie to others, also very often lie to themselves

when people lie insistently to themselves about something, as time goes by they actually convince themselves that the lie is what really happened

this trait creates a greater disconnect than is necessary between the person and "reality"

just how much of reality is a matter of personal interpretation and how much is direct experience of actual reality is something which is up for debate - sort of - but wherever you might stand on the issue, it is easy for everyone to agree that developing the habit of convincing oneself of things which are patently false is a great way to not only create a deep psychological neurosis, but even more exciting, to build a life which is literally JUST WAITING to crumble underneath you, AND WILL, as soon as enough of the pressure and complexity that is a natural and unavoidable part of life develops around your relationships, they will crack if you do not make honesty a sincere commitment

it is ultimately unavoidable

---

as far a lying to people to protect the people you are lying to

first the question is "what are you protecting them from?"
are you protecting them from themselves? from the truth? from fear? or just from you?
is it really for their benefit or is that just convenient justification?

the issue of decision making has been addressed already

i dont know whats been said by others as i typed this lol

but

most people can be relatively attractive and successful IF they make the development of physical and psychological health into an important priority within their lives

really - healthy and attractive are the same things from different perspectives
a person who knows themselves as healthy (because they are actually healthy, not simply because they have convinced themselves of their own greatness) is attractive to other people

a person who is very unattractive across a wide enough range of categories to find it very difficult to socialize in a relatively positive way, usually is suffering from some kind of health issue, be it purely physical or a physical manifestation of something psychological

seriously - people who are healthy can *always find sex and friendship and romance (which is basically the previous two in the same person) if they really pursue it

people who ARENT healthy can usually get these things if they follow some basic rules AND ITS THESE RULES WHICH MAKE US HEALTHY to a very great degree

PROBABLY for most people the more important focus of health should be psychological - this is because a healthy psyche - spirit - attitude - mind - ect will involve understanding the importance of the various characteristics of "physical" health and will result in lifestyle choices which promote physical health

(making a sharp distinction between the body and the mind is not considered a valid way of looking at things any more - its scientifically understood that we are body/mind or psycho-physio entities. there are illnesses which we understand as being located more on one end of this spectrum than on the other - a broken leg is a very clear cut example of a "body" illness, and a person who is obviously very strong and physically fit can suffer from hallucinations for example, and so the distinctions useful and appropriate in many instances, but we are ultimately a single entity and science is proving and recognizing this more and more with every generation)

so, issues which relate to peoples attractiveness and self esteem can usually be handled in a way that is respectful of their feelings without sacrificing honesty, by directing the conversation to general issues of overall health

you dont necessarily have to tell someone "you are _ and you are _" when they ask why its so difficult for them to "find someone" to be with

usually you dont have to lie

and in many cases, if someone asks a direct question then you should give them a direct answer

if you want to tell them how awful they are because you enjoy the experience of causing someone pain
then the issue is not an issue of honesty but of your own psychological health

also if you are generally unable to tell people truths which are uncomfortable, because they are uncomfortable and you cannot bring yourself to face the awkwardness, then again the deeper issue is your own emotional development

both of which go back to point 3

Edan wrote:

Ariane wrote: Loose Lips Sinks Ships.

Truth is the basis for trust.. and if I deceive someone, then I believe I don't deserve their trust.
I do not believe in pretending something is true when it isn't just to get my own way.

Actions are the basis of trust and good is what preserves the affairs of the people you support.
Lying always is for selfish reasons that can benefit yourself and others and when the elites of this world tell you to lie then that will preserve your self interests which is what all humans want.

Edan wrote: but just because 'evil' acts have been committed by others, it doesn't mean I should not keep to my own standards. Sometimes I might fail, that's the nature of being human, we all make mistakes, but I'm still going to try. I don't believe that makes me naive.

No actions however good you think them no matter what doctrine will always be wrong unless your supported because its humanity that gives words meanings and the power that holds. So it is also humans that can make your ideas a fallacy unless you have support for your supposed principles. You should never hold onto the sentimental reasoning or principles that make you feel good because you feel that it is correct. Rather it is through humanities support of your actions no matter how evil you may believe they are which validates them.

if youre looking for the right to justify what youve already decided to do then what do you need everyone else for?
does your lie require mass participation?

im not against lying to the nazis for example and most likely neither is anyone else in the discussion

if thats the point youre wanting to make - ok, i agree

its ok to lie to the nazis

and please dont call people names

Sorry, I forgot to add to my earlier post that I guess the true skill, that is worth learning (especially for me) is in telling the truth in a way that does not offend/upset etc.

That can be very hard to accomplish.

OB1Shinobi wrote: if youre looking for the right to justify what youve already decided to do then what do you need everyone else for?
does your lie require mass participation?

im not against lying to the nazis for example and most likely neither is anyone else in the discussion

if thats the point youre wanting to make - ok, i agree

its ok to lie to the nazis

and please dont call people names

Yes its justified to lie to the Nazi's, but lying is neither Good or Bad, only what other people think of you which brings into a context. It is the context which is debatable. However mass participation of a lie is also still just a lie but if it benefits you and the rest of us then why not continue with that Lie.

However because humans are what attribute meaning to context and situations, they can also change its meaning for their own interests.

P.S I was just referring to naivety in Edans case wasn't trying to be hurtful.

Ariane wrote: Actions are the basis of trust and good is what preserves the affairs of the people you support.
Lying always is for selfish reasons that can benefit yourself and others and when the elites of this world tell you to lie then that will preserve your self interests which is what all humans want.

I don't think you know me well enough to know what I would do. I have told you that I would not deceive anybody for my own gain. I cannot say I would do in any particular situation unknown to me, but I will always do my best to hold myself to my standard. What I consider the right thing, is not always the thing that benefits me.

Edan wrote: No actions however good you think them no matter what doctrine will always be wrong unless your supported because its humanity that gives words meanings and the power that holds. So it is also humans that can make your ideas a fallacy unless you have support for your supposed principles. You should never hold onto the sentimental reasoning or principles that make you feel good because you feel that it is correct. Rather it is through humanities support of your actions no matter how evil you may believe they are which validates them.

So I can only be right if others say I'm right? When I speak the truth it is my truth, and no-one elses, as I said before it is up to them to decide if they agree. I will still do what I believe to be right, regardless of what other's think. I am not other people.