The Force Explained

Peace and blessing upon you all today.

I am new and I have already found kindred spirits on here. I have more questions than answers. Allow me too explain my view of the force, then people can correct me. I think its crucial to understand the force as a Padawan which is the manifestation of energy within the universe.

1. The force is not universal

The force is infinite, everything and everywhere, but it is not universal. It behaves very differently in an infinite and diverse way.

2. The force cannot be destroyed

The force will be here forever, beyond time and eternal. Although the manifestation of the force is finite and ever-changing

3. All things the force created

We are the products of the force, we ourselves in our current form are finite and limited, but we ourselves are eternal through the force.

4. Divine purpose

If there truly is a higher purpose the Jedi should strive towards it. Such as preserving the stability of life and harmony of all living things. Improving ourselves through our disciplines and perfecting our beliefs.

If there is anyone who knows about the force please send a PM or response. Would love to hear your views of the force.

Love and Light

No one is going to come and correct you. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to view the Force except for to say:

"The Tao that can be told is not the eternal tao, the name that can be named is not the eternal name." (Tao Te Ching 1)
Our very attempt to explain it means we lose things in translation, inevitably. The question you need to ask yourself is not "what view of the Force is "right", but whether your view works for you? because it will be different for others.

Ariane wrote: Would love to hear your views of the force.

Hmmmm, at the moment I'm working with it as some primordial essence ascribed to a mixture of 'wisdom' and 'awareness', and translating that in and/or out to include inanimate material, all as a singular manifold of time. Not necessarily as any form of truth, but just my current view to exercise some personal growth. I'm using awareness as the ground for a moment in time, and wisdom as a measure of accurate manifestation of awareness. In other words I like to keep myself slightly confused
:woohoo:

Thanks for the replies Jedi,

Now lets break this down:

Rosalyn J wrote: No one is going to come and correct you.

Hmm, thanks for posting! But if no one will correct errors, then what is the point to talk about anything on here?

Rosalyn J wrote: There is no "right" or "wrong" way to view the Force

Yes that's true in one sense, but the force is not subjective...

Rosalyn J wrote: Our very attempt to explain it means we lose things in translation, inevitably.

That is like saying "no point trying to learn, because we will make mistakes". There is in when we define the force a "definition" likely an understanding that will grow and change.

Rosalyn J wrote: The question you need to ask yourself is not "what view of the Force is "right", but whether your view works for you?because it will be different for others.

Its like saying "believe whatever you wish": I believe in the 'universal truth', because only a truth that applies to everyone everywhere at all times is correct. Truth doesn't behave randomly when sometimes it is true and other times it is not. We can find within different belief systems a set of ideas, which can be created, and many agree with. But acceptance of the truth doesn't make it correct it is how well it stands up to scrutiny that validates it. You have said that none of the Jedi on here will scrutinise the force!

Adder wrote: primordial essence ascribed to a mixture of 'wisdom' and 'awareness'

Very good, and welcome Adder. If I have grasped what you say, it sounds like you believe the primordial essence was caused by wisdom and sentience itself.

Adder wrote: and translating that in and/or out to include inanimate material, all as a singular manifold of time.

So you may be saying that there is no difference, between conciousness, matter and time. It sounds like you measure thoughts as a physical entity.

Adder wrote: I'm using awareness as the ground for a moment in time,

Conciousness is the present singular moment in time, yet we can remember the past and predict the future. So there are many ways to experience awareness even empathy, and love.

Adder wrote: wisdom as a measure of accurate manifestation of awareness.

I understand that wisdom is a manifestation of awareness. Just as much as matter is a manifestation of the force.

Thanks for your feedback lets delve deeper into the force, and contribute.

Well, may I be frank and suggest that you are not the first to attempt to have this discussion? Not on this forum and not in the larger community which comprises many other forums and small groups. That's why I know for certain we wont get a "right" answer

I stand by what I said in my first post here, but let me elaborate:

When we talk about "scrutinizing the Force" we're asking questions like "what is it?" and "how does it work?" and "how do I work with it?" right? We want to distill it down to its barest bones, but frankly, not only is that impossible, its also impractical.

Instead of talking about something we can't see, lets talk about something we can: a tree.

We can answer: what is it (in a sense)? we can answer how does it work (in a sense)? and we can answer how do I work with it (in a sense) ? but none of these answers help us to live with the tree any better than our ancestors who didn't have all the science behind trees and how they operated. In fact, our ancestors were better in their interactions with the trees then we are now. We've given names and characteristics to all life on this planet, but we don't live any better.

And to take the analogy further, whose definition of tree is right? Is it the English or the Spanish or the French? They could all be the same, but they may not be.

Here is a fundamental problem with trying to "scrutinize the Force". Its not a math problem or a lab experiment. Its too big to wrap our brains around. We wont get one answer and shout "Eureka! Ive got it." We can't even do that with the things we know.

I'll be flippant and say "The Force is the Force, Of course of course" and it doesn't make sense now, but it will later.

Ariane wrote:

Adder wrote: primordial essence ascribed to a mixture of 'wisdom' and 'awareness'

Very good, and welcome Adder. If I have grasped what you say, it sounds like you believe the primordial essence was caused by wisdom and sentience itself.

Hello and welcome to the Temple!!! I'm not considering the cause or origin, at least not yet. I consider it primordial so to represent a dislocation from the passage of time - since I try and understand time as an influence on the 'shape' of it (the Force).

Ariane wrote:

Adder wrote: and translating that in and/or out to include inanimate material, all as a singular manifold of time.

So you may be saying that there is no difference, between conciousness, matter and time. It sounds like you measure thoughts as a physical entity.

Yes, for the purposes of my Jedi path everything is made of the Force, and awareness is probably the product of complexity in the Force itself (and thus incl. matter), where wisdom is a specific type of awareness which can relate to its essence through its relationship with time (again by virtue of its particular complexity).

Ariane wrote:

Adder wrote: I'm using awareness as the ground for a moment in time,

Conciousness is the present singular moment in time, yet we can remember the past and predict the future. So there are many ways to experience awareness even empathy, and love.

Memories to me are emotional representations of past experiences (with degrees of sensory involvement), but they still occur in the present moment.

I like to think the awareness and emergence of wisdom is based on a self-referential nature, which much like memory itself can carry over information to understand it's present moment by learning from its past, and thus also understand the passage of time to reach for to expectations of a future ie perhaps the fundamental process of awareness.

Ariane wrote:

Adder wrote: wisdom as a measure of accurate manifestation of awareness.

I understand that wisdom is a manifestation of awareness. Just as much as matter is a manifestation of the force.

Matter more broadly I interpret in different time dilations, so what might appear inanimate to us at a different rate of time might become part of a system which is animate. I try to do this whilst avoiding anthropomorphism of the concept, and as mentioned its not intended to be true, just what I'm working with at the moment. Saying all that, sometimes its really useful/important to not have any conceptualization at all!!

Wow!

Thanks for your posts Rosalyn J. This is both brilliant feedback and informative. It really helps me make sense of the Jedi path. As I said its important for me to understand what this 'force' is and what we are referring to. But let me also say that your a good teacher and that I understand now, that any understanding of the complexity of the force, may be a negative for the Jedi. But also that I can now meditate on your answer.

Meditation on the larger picture, is crucial for my spiritual development. But that it can be superfluous to my ability to act as a Jedi.

Thanks and Keep posting your ideas of what the force means to you. May the force be with you.

Love and Light xx

Adder wrote: Matter more broadly I interpret in different time dilations

Adder, I like how you have the present awareness of the material universe as a moving construct within space time. Your words are like a puzzle that reveals itself slowly within my cosmic understanding. I never really looked at it that way as such.

The film, Interstellar. Which you Adder you should see since that is about time dilation. I wont dissect your answer since, in my humble opinion I believe I have much to meditate upon. But i may give a response soon. We covered everything to the limit of my knowledge.

Love and Light xx

No nouns. Only verbs... all of it.

Your posts warranted a good response so here it is:

Rosalyn J wrote: Well, may I be frank and suggest that you are not the first to attempt to have this discussion? Not on this forum and not in the larger community which comprises many other forums and small groups. That's why I know for certain we wont get a "right" answer

This may be a straw-man argument, but I had to respond, this is so fatalistic. Don't do something because you will fail. This is the fun of higher awareness. We conceptualise for our own enjoyment and we may refine our ideas for practical purposes which humans are adept at.

Rosalyn J wrote: When we talk about "scrutinizing the Force" we're asking questions like "what is it?" and "how does it work?" and "how do I work with it?" right? We want to distil it down to its barest bones, but frankly, not only is that impossible, its also impractical.

Umm i don't agree, this is purely your opinion. Besides were debating scrutinising the force rather than scrutinising the force. The idea is to cast of our illusions of the force to see the truth. I will give you an example of the 'truth' behind our ability as humans within the force, we are able to control our body to manipulate the force, humans have been doing it for thousands of years and were getting better at it.

Rosalyn J wrote: but none of these answers help us to live with the tree any better than our ancestors who didn't have all the science behind trees and how they operated. In fact, our ancestors were better in their interactions with the trees then we are now. We've given names and characteristics to all life on this planet, but we don't live any better.

That is simply not true i am not saying we humans are in harmony with the force or nature or the world but our ancestors gave us the key to unlocking the force and the truth. Its our turn to enhance that knowledge.

Rosalyn J wrote: And to take the analogy further, whose definition of tree is right? Is it the English or the Spanish or the French? They could all be the same, but they may not be.

Semantics! Doesn't matter how you describe something, in whatever language, the truth is still the truth. It only matters what you do with your 'understanding'. What you do with your knowledge. If it compels you to create or love and show compassion and how you understand is key to how you act and what you do with it, is all that matters.

Rosalyn J wrote: Here is a fundamental problem with trying to "scrutinize the Force". Its not a math problem or a lab experiment. Its too big to wrap our brains around. We wont get one answer and shout "Eureka! Ive got it." We can't even do that with the things we know.

You seem very "why try so don't bother", we are curious because its difficult.

You seem very sure you understand Rosalyn but I think you're missing her point. You started a thread to explain the Force, but we all don't even here agree on what the Force is. We can have this discussion but because of that we will never find a universal answer.

It is 3 AM here... so, my post may not make sense. But, I answered the "Force" question earlier today already so it's fresh in my mind.

Here's the thing... The Force is not a thing. It is, instead, a verb. It is the connecting of everything in the Universe. Without the Force, there is an infinite number of disconnected atoms (insert your smallest subatomic particle here). With the Force, you have a connected Universe.

Is the Force universal? Well, what does that mean exactly? universal means, "of the Universe" right? I don't think so either. Maybe for different reasons, I'm not sure. The Force is a connecting between any and all objects, both material and immaterial. In this way, the Force gives us the opportunity to have a Universe we can live in. It literally provides the option for life as well.

The Force could be destroyed I think. I mean, yes, in a way, an action cannot be destroyed. Let's take a metaphor. Can you destroy a wave in the ocean? I'm not sure you can. A wave is just a description of an action, right? It is the ocean that manifests itself as a shape. So, when a wave dies, it goes back to being a part of the thing it came from... it was never really there in the first place. But, if you took away the ocean, then you would have no ability for a wave to be formed. In the same way, taking away the Universe would remove the possibility of a Force to connect the universe.

not all things are created by the Force. Rather, the Force provides the opportunity for things to be created. At least, that's how I understand it.

If our divine purpose is to emulate the Force, then we should spend our energies connecting.

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Note: It's SO very late here. I apologize for the state of this post. haha. Also, these opinions are definitely just opinions... I don't think my view of the Force is a popular one. But, it's one I like to share when given the opportunity. It evolves and changes. But, I do think it's an interesting point of view on the matter. If you think I'm wrong, I love hearing other opinions. God knows it feels like I've read them all in the past ten years Ive been in the community. hahaha.

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EDIT: I thought of one more thing. My view of the Force is actually concurrent with the Tao Te Ching... Which is why I like it.

Edan wrote: You seem very sure you understand Rosalyn but I think you're missing her point

My apologies, I felt I didn't address Rosalyn_J properly either. Just that some points were more prominent than others. I don't expect anyone to agree or disagree just to describe their idea of the force.

The point i think i am missing is that we are all opinionated about the force but it doesn't change how we behave...

Connar L. wrote: The Force could be destroyed I think. I mean, yes, in a way, an action cannot be destroyed. Let's take a metaphor. Can you destroy a wave in the ocean? I'm not sure you can. A wave is just a description of an action, right? It is the ocean that manifests itself as a shape. So, when a wave dies, it goes back to being a part of the thing it came from... it was never really there in the first place. But, if you took away the ocean, then you would have no ability for a wave to be formed. In the same way, taking away the Universe would remove the possibility of a Force to connect the universe.

Thanks for joining the thread, I like the idea of your wave analogy and removing the water. In fact Stephen Hawking said they were doing an experiment that could destroy the Universe and all rebirths of possible universes Destroy the Universe

Connor L. wrote: Is the Force universal? Well, what does that mean exactly?

It means there are no 'Universal Laws' such as our physics describe the small region of space we inhabit. And other laws are needed to be written for other parts of the universe.


Special message to Rosalyn I will empty my mind of my prejudices and approach life with a blank slate.

Peace and Blessings xx

Just been reading on the Temple forum, I think, of cause this opening post accurately describes Rosalyn's perspective of the force The force Explained click here

Ariane wrote: Just been reading on the Temple forum, I think, of cause this opening post accurately describes Rosalyn's perspective of the force The force Explained click here

The Force is transcendent.

The Force is impossible to know directly, and can't be adequately described except by itself. You can't see or hear it; all you see or hear are things. Things come, things go, but the Force is that which is beyond mere things, and remains constant throughout even these seemingly universal transitions.

Until you understand the transcendent nature of the Force, you can't begin to approach knowledge of it.

My problem with this, is that the statement like many others are made with the assumption that the Force is unknowable, you can't see it or hear it, etc etc ad nauseum. That in my personal opinion is complete bs, as I don't need to "see it" or "hear it" to FEEL IT. This whole assumption that it is something different for everyone, that's wonderful if it works for you, as it is. But dont think for one minute that my knowledge of the Force relies upon my "believing" in it, as it does not.

My knowledge of the Force comes from experimentation, plain and simple. It IS life force, and it can be felt, cultivated, given, and taken. I respect the Tao, but I don't need it to describe the Force when I can experience it first hand. Why read a book or meditate upon swimming when I can actually dive in and do it myself, exactly.

Unlike the vast majority of people who have come to the TOTJO as Star Wars fans, my interest in life force brought me. The Chinese call it Chi, the Japanese call it Ki, the natives of the Pacific islands called it mana, and the yogi's in India call it Prana. Its simplest form is the breath. You CAN see it. Look at the diversity and celebrations of all the different cultures. You CAN hear it, listen to their music. You can even taste it, but i digress...

To think otherwise is to cut yourself from the source...

Zenchi wrote: The Force is transcendent.The Chinese call it Chi, the Japanese call it Ki, the natives of the Pacific islands called it mana, and the yogi's in India call it Prana. Its simplest form is the breath. You CAN see it. Look at the diversity and celebrations of all the different cultures. You CAN hear it, listen to their music. You can even taste it,

To think otherwise is to cut yourself from the source...

I completely agree with you Zenchi, that was my main contention with Rosalyn's post. We can know the force, completely, and become omnipotent. You can feel it working all around. You have to be highly skilled but its possible, in a hundred years we would have mastered physics. From then on we will learn more control and eventually even understand new laws of physics about the force.

In the future we will change at will between male and female and enhance ourselves to become more like Jedi Knights and evolve and adapt The future is awesome. Can the force such as (Prana or God, the force or Chi) itself provide humans with the power to control the force without anything but discipline and beliefs?

Or for example do we need to evolve more or are we already today able to become like Jedi. Or do we need to combine our human genome with Turritopsis dohrnii and other creatures like an electric eel an electric fish. It is capable of generating powerful electric shocks of up to 650 volts. Is the singularity against Jedi Teachings, the Jedi seem against technology rather they have Midichlorian to use the force..

Which brings me on nicely to the 'Singularitarian Principles'

Wikipedia wrote: Singularitarianism is a movement defined by the belief that a technological singularity—the creation of
superintelligence—will likely happen in the medium future, and that deliberate action ought to be taken to ensure that the Singularity benefits humans.

Source

yudkowsky wrote: The "Singularity" is a natural, non-mystical, technologically triggered event. The Singularitarians, are allied in the purpose of bringing about a natural event through natural means, not sitting in a circle chanting over a computer. There are thousands, perhaps millions, of stories and prophecies and rituals that allegedly involve something that could theoretically be described as "greater-than-human intelligence". What distinguishes the Singularitarians is that we want to bring about a natural event, working through ultratechnologies such as AI or nanotech, without relying on mystical means or morally valent effects.

Source

Sorry for the terrible state of the post i am having linguistic diarrhoea

Trying to understand the Force: The act of missing the forest for the trees.

The question is - Can we properly talk about (what is essentially) the essence of unification by any means that involves dividing it up (labeling, measuring, examining, isolating, or any thought created out of an act of the ego)?

These days, when somebody asks me what I think the Force is... I show them music.

Hence, a thread I made some years ago, still very active today, which has become probably the largest thread on the forums - What Are You Listening To Right Now? Why is it, that among all these other threads, it is that one which is still so active and popular and not a thread about astronomy, or technology, or math?

I think it is because music (or even more basically, sound in general) is probably one of the most universally adequate ways to share communication about something like the Force, as opposed to verbal, or even visual communication. This is because the manifestation of sound may actually represent what we have come to all agree about, concerning the Force (the connection of everything). Sound is vibration, which, when blended together consistently enough, becomes, what we experience as "sound" - we don't interpret each individual vibration separately (each on/off instance of a wave for example) like we do when we look around and see separate things or ideas, but instead, as their coming together to create one unified presence. If we were to suddenly dissect the sound back into individual vibrations, we would no longer have the sound to experience. This is often what happens when someone tries to "explain the Force" - they take it apart and suddenly, we're no longer talking about it anymore. In that music thread, notice how we are not examining the music or trying to "explain it"... we are simply enjoying it. I feel that the experience of doing so is the only place where you might ever find any real understanding of it.

I'd like to give my insight into the idea, from a quantum point of view. But first let me explain a few things down at the quantum level.

Firstly, the quantum universe consists of particle-like objects. They a particles because they have mass. They are waves because they exhibit wave-like properties. And they are neither because they take up precisely no space at all. You can't see them because they're not there, and yet they are, and they interact with the world in big ways.

These 'particles' can tunnel through solid objects without going through them (imagine teleporting). They depend upon conscious thought, they require an observer. When you aren't watching, they're particles and waves. When you look, they pick one. And by picking one, they change the past. What you see is what they have always been. They are not limited by 'time'.

These 'particles' can become 'entangled'. No matter how far apart they are, they remain connected somehow. If you look at one particle, the other will immediately change to match its partner. No time delay, yet the information could have traveled from one side of the universe to the other.

With these things in mind, I believe there must be something behind it all. Something simpler, something to dictate the laws of physics, perhaps a form of binary or set of planes, but I think that this 'Force' may very well be something tangible and measurable sometime in the future. It explains how all things are connected throughout space and time, and gives purpose to our consciousness. Much like the old question of the tree falling in the forest, but this time I think the answer is something we're not prepared for. If we weren't around to see the cosmos, there's no reason why it would need to exist at all.

I know it's a lot, but I just think it's interesting to think of things from a different perspective, and to realize that science is not incompatible with the Force. At the frontier of science is the greatest quest for knowledge.

Ariane wrote: In the future we will change at will between male and female and enhance ourselves to become more like Jedi Knights and evolve and adapt The future is awesome. Can the force such as (Prana or God, the force or Chi) itself provide humans with the power to control the force without anything but discipline and beliefs?

Or for example do we need to evolve more or are we already today able to become like Jedi. Or do we need to combine our human genome with Turritopsis dohrnii and other creatures like an electric eel an electric fish. It is capable of generating powerful electric shocks of up to 650 volts.

Have you seen the movie 'Lucy' yet. I saw it on the weekend for the first time, it sounds a bit like what your thinking of there, but the movie is obviously still fiction (at the moment). I loved it BTW, if she hadn't of topped so many people I would have nominated her/it in the 'Jedi in Movies' thread here at TOTJO.

Some interesting quotes from it;

Ariane wrote: Is the singularity against Jedi Teachings, the Jedi seem against technology rather they have Midichlorian to use the force..

Transhumanism talked about integrating technology and methods to evolve consciousness so that humanity could more directly benefit from the singularity. I don't think Jedi are anti-technology but depending on the level of integration it might blur the lines between human and cyborg, but who ever said only human's could be Jedi!?

We waste a lot of valuable "is-ness" by trying to become something that we are not. Looking for an "explanation" is entertainment. It is a puzzle with a lot of pieces -- too many really to count. IF we try to count "pieces", that is ... But please, continue this ... indefinitely, if you feel like it. It is entertaining.

That is the thing about the self-improvement racket ; we are always trying to become better. The paradox is, all our 'flaws' are already affectations of what we ourselves are not ... Are we sure that the better we're trying to become, imagined better by the 'flawed' mind, is really better than how we already are ?

We cannot 'will' ourselves to some sort of ascension ... nor toward "more" compassion, "more" forgiveness, "more" Love ... The Force doesn't have to be 'worked for'. Just get all the illusions - including the explanations - out of the way and It is just "there".