Non-Conformity...

With Robin William's death this week, the television is playing all sorts of his movies...

In my life, when I am presented in a situation, I generally rebel, first, or at least not just "go along" with the majority, until I can make my own assessment...

Re-watched "Dead Poet Society" Saturday, and forgot all the great lessons in it, seeing it oh, so long ago, :lol:...

Anyway, this made me think...

from Freedom from the Known, Jiddu Krishnamurti, p. 47 :

"Man has accepted conflict as an innate part of daily existence because he has accepted competition, jealousy, greed, acquisitiveness and aggression as a natural way of life. When we accept such a way of life we accept the structure of society as it is and live within the pattern of respectability. And that is what most of us are caught in because most of us want to be terribly respectable. When we examine our own minds and hearts, the way we think, the way we feel and how we act in our daily lives, we observe that as long as we conform to the pattern of society, life must be a battlefield. If we do not accept it - and no religious person can possibly accept such a society - then we will be completely free from the psychological structure of society."

* the accentuation is my own

This one of Robin Williams' roles was one of my own role-models, not only as a teacher, but in many different social situations ...

I can't remember a time where I ever conformed to the norm....at least not willingly or happily...I know how to "play the game" by putting on a display of conformity, but inwardly I'm not one of the sheeple, merely a starving wolf with a good costume....fortunately I only have to wear a mask when dealing with the law or employers...the rest of the time I'm free of restraints...

The first time I heard Carpe Diem was in The Dead Poets Society. Something I have tried to live by ever since. I went to a school that was similar to the one in the movie and my friends and I were quite inspired by it. My school was in the grounds of a mansion and in the woods behind it we found what must have been an old cool room that you now had to crawl down a tunnel to get into as it was underground. We called it the Velvet Underground (after the band) and used to meet there to smoke and read poems etc. Good times!

When I was in high school I marked my arm with "the old Indian sign for virility" and I would read poetry to my girlfriends, haha.

Dead Poets Society was definitely the most memorable to me of the Robin Williams movies.

*shrugs*

I conform plenty.

My job. If I didnt I would lose not only my job, but in many cases my ability to work in healthcare anywhere. I may skate the line from time to time, as I once told a diabetic man who was recovering from an above the knee amputation to his right leg that, when seeing the Wendys bag his family brought him that was his other leg I was severely reprimanded.

When telling a pain seeker who came up to the floor and threatened to leave if he did not receive his pain medicine that instant he was leaving I chuckled and told him not to threaten me with having less patients to care for and cheerfully handed him an AMA form.

These acts were not without repercussion, and there have been others, but I am obviously staying conformed enough to keep my job. Which is a good thing, I have family to take care of, and interests to pay for.


I am not in jail. I do not believe in every law, and I break several,( I just havent been caught yet) but many I keep because there is a law, not because I put any value in said law, making it conformity.

I am of the mind that inwardly it doesnt matter how I feel. I may not conform happily, but certainly willingly in these instances, and im sure others.

Martial arts is another one, at least in the beginning, as you know nothing, so the first thing you tend to do is the basics, the basics stay with you forever. The basics are drilled into all new students. Some would say and I agree that the most advanced practitioners do there basics at an extremely high level.

Of course, everyone who stays with it long enough develops there own accent as it were, there own flair, but when rolling(slang for sparring in bjj) I find if my opponent is particularly hard, I revert to the basics and as they have been practiced the most(shrimping is shimping, side control is side control, etc,etc) it keeps it simple, but much harder for someone trying to stick to there own flair to deal with.

Conformity has value. I do math as most others do, as I was taught. I use the same alphabet that everyone does(at least on my continent)

Certainly I find value in non conformity, but I see plenty of value in conforming as well

I am known to be an iconclast, a non conformist, in school, for some of my antics I was called and anarchist.

For most things, you only know your breaking out of a system if you have once been inside it.

Ah, i forgot.

I stay conformed enough to stay a member here.

I used to get PMs regarding my future time here for things I had said, or the way I said them, common enough as they were in my home forums. Most recently it was a public event in regards to my asking to many questions, or the way I asked them.

ToTJo wants a level of conformity, its in your rules for being an active member or guest here.

So I do, so I can explore.

Not a complete indoctrination, which is the highest level of conformity, but I play by the rules predominantly.

I dont think the point of the scene was to say conformity is bad, but more to say to choose it for a reason, as opposed to "blindly following" (wait? having "faith"?, lol...) like the rest of the sheep, er, sheeple, er, people...

It marching even, it makes sense... People can be closer together, it minimizes stumbles and tripping...

I dont think the point of the scene was to say conformity is bad, but more to say to choose it for a reason,

Im saying my "choice" is inconsequential.

In conformity, no one cares about my justifications or excuses for why, they just care that I do.

Im also venturing to say it was not a choice on my part.

I wanted to get into healthcare.

I pretty much had to be on the bandwagon, or I did not get my nursing license.

I have to obey the law, whether I choose to or not.

In school, I did not choose to be there, much less learn,( though of course there were subjects I enjoyed) I had to, reinforced by the heavy hand, fist, belt, two by four, of my parents.

Is there choice here?

Perhaps if it makes you feel better to think so.

Do I have a choice to act as I like here?

Not if I want to be here.

A revolutionary that keeps it to himself isnt much of one though.

I can behave in conformity rather well most of the time, while in other times I am really bad at selling it. I guess it has more to do with necessity over desire. My ability to see the play for how well people play their parts enables me to play my part with integrity and clear vision, while leaving myself a little room for improv. Needless to say, I'm an odd one and everybody knows it. :laugh:

I make it a point not to conform.


This being said I'm pretty sure one of the kids dies in that movie.

Actually, Adhara and I were just talking about that this afternoon ...

Total (exaggerated) non-conformity would be horrible. One would be terribly isolated. We have to have some commonalities and agreements to function in and as a society. And that is in and of itself innate to us ... humans are social animals, without a community, we die. Even with regard to our biology, we con-form to human physiognomy - if we didn't do that, we would be de-formed.

But that isn't the type of con-forming we're talking about ... It is not even simply the choice to conform or not to conform but the awareness of the conformity. There is also false 'individualism' which is just another sort of conformity to that particular cult ...

It seems to me that JK's conformity - saying the 'right' things to be 'respected' by the 'right' people (the 'in-group') - perpetually against one's own feelings is going to be like a constant diet of stale food. Or even worse, not ever discovering what one's own thoughts and feeling about things truly are ! that would be like a diet of food that others have already eaten. We have a name for that sort of stuff ...

We do have to conform in part ; all levels of social organisation depend on it. Likewise, all levels of social organisation depend on a little non-conformity too, without which we would have an arrested culture. And that non-conformity has to penetrate all of the social dimensions : the arts, religions, sciences, politics, philosophy &c. But even that non-conformity, which assuredly meets with resistance, has to remain recognisable, it must remain at least marginally within the scope of not only what people know, but also what they are comfortable with. In other words, non-conformity has limits.

It seems to me that JK's conformity - saying the 'right' things to be 'respected' by the 'right' people (the 'in-group')

I have told an individual that if he hasnt been kissing ass he didnt want it enough. :laugh: I also told him I wouldnt kiss ass though.

I did always like this speech though in regards to non conformity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuYhfCkRxyE

Khaos wrote:

I dont think the point of the scene was to say conformity is bad, but more to say to choose it for a reason,

Im saying my "choice" is inconsequential.

In conformity, no one cares about my justifications or excuses for why, they just care that I do.

No, it is not inconsequential... But, it might seem that to you, I guess...

I think it speaks volumes that you choose to retrain yourself, and is very interesting to me...

Im also venturing to say it was not a choice on my part.

I wanted to get into healthcare.

I pretty much had to be on the bandwagon, or I did not get my nursing license.

I have to obey the law, whether I choose to or not.

In school, I did not choose to be there, much less learn,( though of course there were subjects I enjoyed) I had to, reinforced by the heavy hand, fist, belt, two by four, of my parents.

Is there choice here?

Perhaps if it makes you feel better to think so.

Do I have a choice to act as I like here?

I would beg to differ...

You had a choice... You chose it to get to your goal... Me too, just saying, there is always a choice...

Not if I want to be here.

A revolutionary that keeps it to himself isnt much of one though.

And the crux of it...

Your desire to be here, be in healthcare, not get a ticket, and so forth, means you choose....

But, we do not have to choose mindlessly...

We do not follow blindly....

But, to reach our desired goals.... Which is REALLY what we are after...

I am addressing everyone, but using your words as the springboard...

ren wrote: I make it a point not to conform.


This being said I'm pretty sure one of the kids dies in that movie.

Yea, he does...

He feels that strong about his opinions...

And, it is the downfall of William's character in the school...

Yes, you make it a point to not conform, but at the risk of being seen as a jerk...

:lol:....

Yes, you make it a point to not conform, but at the risk of being seen as a jerk..

It can also cut off great opportunities for oneself.

No, it is not inconsequential... But, it might seem that to you, I guess...

I think it speaks volumes that you choose to retrain yourself, and is very interesting to me...

Still, to those that would like one to conform, its inconsensequential as to why.

Is it to me?

Of course not, but I understand the value of sacrifice.

Still, whatever excuses or justifications I have to call it a "choice" really has no bearing on my employer.

As for retraining, I have no idea what your talking about, so cannot respond.

You had a choice... You chose it to get to your goal... Me too, just saying, there is always a choice...

I sacrificed choice actually, which again, can be seen as a choice if I need to make myself feel better about my conformity, but I dont.

Haha, its like those who say they didnt sell out but bought in.

Whatever gets you moving on.

But, to reach our desired goals.... Which is REALLY what we are after..

Perhaps, except when you say its all about perspective...except my perspective, as long as it conforms to the perspective of behavior for ToTJo, and even then, my perspective is in extreme minority.

I want to be here, but I cant be myself....Interesting...

Healthcare would fit as a goal, but really, that would fit into sacrifice of choice.

Also it is not a goal to stay out of prison, I dont have to try that hard to avoid bars, but I am well aware of what I can and cannot do in society.

Most of us choose to conform at certain times because we think it best for whatever reason. I think the point of that scene is that we have the choice. Be who you are and not who you should be.

Khaos wrote: In school, I did not choose to be there, much less learn,( though of course there were subjects I enjoyed) I had to, reinforced by the heavy hand, fist, belt, two by four, of my parents.

Sounds like your parents and mine went to the same school of parenting

My view of conformity is that unless you truly accept and embrace the change, making it part of who you are, you're not really conforming...if at first opportunity you return to who you really are, then you're merely playing the game...wearing a mask...a wolf in sheeps clothing...I strongly dislike playing the game, and forcing me to sometimes causes me to become worse...

You can choose to conform, you can choose to play the game, or you can choose to do neither...it all depends on what achieving your goal requires...

Yes, you make it a point to not conform, but at the risk of being seen as a jerk...

Still far preferable to being a conformist, especially in this day and age.